70s/80s CIE rolling stock in N-gauge?

[gavino200]

Hi. I live in the US but I grew up in Dublin. I have an N-scale layout, mostly Japanese trains (Shinkansen etc), but I'd really like to get one of those old orange & black CIE trains from my childhood. I know that they're available in OO and that OO is the preferred gauge in Ireland. However, do any of you know of a supplier or good customizer where I could get these in N-scale.

I know that unpainted loco bodies are available from shapeways. Unfortunately I don't have the skills to do a good paint job.

If I have to, I'll  find a professional modeler to do the painting. Does anyone know a supplier where I can get one of these engines in N-gauge, in any other livery (British Rail?) that I could use as a base for conversion. 

and/or this one

And these carriages. BTW what are these carriages called?

 

 

[jhb171achill]

The Shapeways stuff appears to be 3D printed, or some such similar procedure. With N, errors are magnified times two, as are features which are coarse. Thus, even finishing the body requires some dexterity, and painting is probably worse!

I looked into this myself recently and regrettably decided against - but I'd be interested to see the results of such work elsewhere.

Those carriages are no longer in service. There were just over 40 of them, entering traffic 1963/4 and the last withdrawn within the last ten years. They were known as "Cravens".

Edited November 21, 2017 by jhb171achill

[dropshort105]

Shapeways are all there is for n, they are tricky, I played around with them a couple of years ago, gave them away in the end. Best to start with the a or c class, the hand rails on the GMs are impossible.

[MikeO]

There is nothing in RTR for Irish N gauge. While Shapeways have bodies finding a suitable chassis and making it fit will present major challenges in respect of the two locos in your photos. A more modern option of a class 201 using a Shapeways body and a Dapol class 66 chassis is some what easier.  Have a look at this link to Connolly station in N by driver301  

 

There are no other British outline models that are the same size as Irish locos,  some come close but again making a suitable body is not going to be an easy task.

In my experience to have Irish n gauge stock requires a lot of compromises and inventive ways of doing things. 

 

 

[gavino200]

5 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

The Shapeways stuff appears to be 3D printed, or some such similar procedure. With N, errors are magnified times two, as are features which are coarse. Thus, even finishing the body requires some dexterity, and painting is probably worse!

I looked into this myself recently and regrettably decided against - but I'd be interested to see the results of such work elsewhere.

Those carriages are no longer in service. There were just over 40 of them, entering traffic 1963/4 and the last withdrawn within the last ten years. They were known as "Cravens".

Yes, I agree about the shapeways shells. The detail isn't good. Maybe in a few years the technology will be good enough. But for now I'm putting the Shapeways idea to sleep.

Thanks for the info about the "Cravens". That's probably more specific than I need to be. I just took that picture because it looks like what I remember all the carriages to have looked like when I was a kid. They don't have to be that exact car. I'm not much of a 'rivot counter'. Do you guys use that term there too?

Anyway, are there other carriage types that fit the same general look?

3 hours ago, dropshort105 said:

Shapeways are all there is for n, they are tricky, I played around with them a couple of years ago, gave them away in the end. Best to start with the a or c class, the hand rails on the GMs are impossible.

Are the A or C class locos like the second one I showed? Sorry, but I've just begun to work on this. It's been a vague idea for a while though, and I've searched a few times with no luck. I figured I'd try to see what was available generally, before getting more specific. 

I wonder if those GMs were sold in the US too. If so there should be an American model available that could be customized.

[gavino200]

8 hours ago, MikeO said:

There is nothing in RTR for Irish N gauge. While Shapeways have bodies finding a suitable chassis and making it fit will present major challenges in respect of the two locos in your photos. A more modern option of a class 201 using a Shapeways body and a Dapol class 66 chassis is some what easier.  Have a look at this link to Connolly station in N by driver301  

 

There are no other British outline models that are the same size as Irish locos,  some come close but again making a suitable body is not going to be an easy task.

In my experience to have Irish n gauge stock requires a lot of compromises and inventive ways of doing things. 

 

 

Thanks for the link. That guy did a beautiful paint job. But the shells themselves are a bit rough.

 

The reason I added this Loco is not just because I remember it, but also because when I was a kid I had an OO model of this in both CIE and British Rail colors. Does anyone know if there's a BR version of this available in N-gauge?

 

Also, do any of you know of any BR or other country's livery carriages that closely resemble the "Craven" cars or other similar cars. I remember the BR intercity cars that I had as a kid weren't far off. 

Who are the main N-scale companies in the Western European Islands these days? I'm guessing Hornby. Anyone new? Lima still around? Lemke, Arnold, and Fleischmann have mostly continental stuff IIRC.

These carriages would be fine too (though I prefer the craven type). Any one of the Orange/Black cars would be fine. How many different types were there btw?

 

 

 

Can anyone recommend a good site that lists and describes the various Irish prototypes?

Thanks.

Edited November 22, 2017 by gavino200

[gavino200]

Something like this would be close enough to pass for a CIE 201 class....with a new paint job. Maybe.

 

 

http://www.railwaypictures.co.uk/img1445.htm

 

Or this?

 

http://www.cheltmodrail.org.uk/exhibition.php?ExKey2=23http://www.cheltmodrail.or
g.uk/exhibition.php?ExKey2=23

 

 

https://hiveminer.com/Tags/rmweb

 

 

Edited November 22, 2017 by gavino200

[Mayner]

Dapol https://www.dapol.co.uk/shop/n-gauge/diesel-locomotives-n-gauge and Graham Farish (Bachmann/Kader) http://www.bachmann.co.uk/prod1.php?prod_selected=farish&prod=3 are the two main suppliers/manufacturers of British rtr.

The Dapol Class 33 would just about pass for a Metrovick from a distance (the old Lima OO/HO Metrovick were re-painted Class 33s.  The Dapol BR MK3 and Farish BR MK2 coaches would be close enough for the Irish stock of the 80s onwards.

The main draw back would be trying to achieve a decent paint finish on the locos and coaches together with spoiling some rather nice models and destroying the re-sale value.

Probably better to stick to Japanese or try out American N gauge 

[MikeO]

For a list of Irish diesel locomotives look at this link, it is for Wikipedia  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_locomotives_of_Ireland

and for coaching stock look at this one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coaching_stock_of_Ireland

Both are useful to give you some basic information.

Another source of coach photos is this site http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/ie/car/IE/pix.html    There are some photos of Cravens near the end of the list.

You will not be able to just paint a British locomotive in Irish livery because they do not look the same..

For an early C class a BR class 22 is roughly the right size( it is a little larger) and has the right number of wheels(ie 4 called a Bo-Bo) on each bogie but the body will require a lot of work to make even passable.

For an A class which is similar to a c class but bigger a BR class 31 is roughly the right size (again it is a little larger) but also has the right number of wheels for each bogie(ie 6 called a Co-Co). Again the body will need a lot of modification.

On the basis of passability Hobbytran make a Vossloh G 2000 BB which has a cab at each end, a narrow body and guard rails running between each cab on both sides. It is a Bo-Bo and with some work to the narrow body and the roof it could become a class 181. It is a slightly smaller scale 1/160 as opposed to 1/148(British) or 1/150(American and Japanese) but the small scale makes it the right length.

British MK2 coaches can usually be passable intercity coaches.

 

This is a link to my t-Trak thread which shows some of my conversions including( at the end of page 1) the Vossloh G 2000 and some painted MK2 coaches

 

I hope this helps

[jhb171achill]

Yes, all the above point to the reality - anything even distantly like Irish stuff is still do very far off the mark that it just won't look remotely right. Our carriages and locos were as different from British or mainland European stuff as they were from American.

I suspect that you might be able to get something vaguely like a 121 class diesel (1962-2006) out of a model - if one exists - of an American SW1500 switcher, to which they were distantly related. Even then, considerable surgery on the front would be needed.

All of the above has to apply, really, even for a "non-river-counter".

One can only hope that improvements in 3D printing will eventually bring availability in N to Irish railway modelling.

(Pat - N gauge J15, RTR, plus sixwheelers?)

[gavino200]

5 hours ago, MikeO said:

For a list of Irish diesel locomotives look at this link, it is for Wikipedia  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_locomotives_of_Ireland

and for coaching stock look at this one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coaching_stock_of_Ireland

Both are useful to give you some basic information.

Another source of coach photos is this site http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/ie/car/IE/pix.html    There are some photos of Cravens near the end of the list.

You will not be able to just paint a British locomotive in Irish livery because they do not look the same..

For an early C class a BR class 22 is roughly the right size( it is a little larger) and has the right number of wheels(ie 4 called a Bo-Bo) on each bogie but the body will require a lot of work to make even passable.

For an A class which is similar to a c class but bigger a BR class 31 is roughly the right size (again it is a little larger) but also has the right number of wheels for each bogie(ie 6 called a Co-Co). Again the body will need a lot of modification.

On the basis of passability Hobbytran make a Vossloh G 2000 BB which has a cab at each end, a narrow body and guard rails running between each cab on both sides. It is a Bo-Bo and with some work to the narrow body and the roof it could become a class 181. It is a slightly smaller scale 1/160 as opposed to 1/148(British) or 1/150(American and Japanese) but the small scale makes it the right length.

British MK2 coaches can usually be passable intercity coaches.

 

This is a link to my t-Trak thread which shows some of my conversions including( at the end of page 1) the Vossloh G 2000 and some painted MK2 coaches

 

I hope this helps

That helps massively. Thanks so much. Great information. Also, your T-Trak work is truly inspirational. Do you mind if I cross-post it?

I want to attempt what you have done with the rolling stock. I don't have your modelling skill, so I'll have to get a pro to do the custom painting. I've done that before once. I had a loco painted to look like the loco in the movie "Trainmaster" when by son was smaller. The loco looked amazing, All done with airbrush and custom printed decals. I think I'd do the same thing here. Hopefully, I can do the same thing here. I wont get to this super quick but I'll post pics when I get it moving along. For the time being I'll start trying to acquire base models in good condition.

Thanks again. Your work is amazing!

Edited November 22, 2017 by gavino200

[gavino200]

The BR Class 33 seems like a good match also for the C. The main difference is the cab front window and whatever that thing on the roof of the C Class is. Otherwise they're very close. I think that's the one I had in OO when I was a kid. Side by side they were almost identical.

 

Edited November 22, 2017 by gavino200

[gavino200]

This might be a nice base model.

http://www.hattons.co.uk/58898/Dapol_2D_001_000_Class_33_0_33030_in_BR_blue/StockDetail.aspx

[Noel]

Hi Gavin

25 years ago in the 00 gauge world a Lima BR class 33 repainted in CIE orange super train livery passed as the closest thing to an Irish CIE A class, and I was very happy with mine back then, but not now as things have moved on.  However in N-Guage it might do for you.  Some pics below to show comparisons.

This was despite the incorrect 3 cab windows instead of 2, the cab side windows, port holes, wrong buffer beam, bo-bo bogie instead of co-co, head code box, etc.  The most noticeable different using the 2ft viewing rule is the 2 cab windows and protruding buffer beam.

 

These are 00 gauge RTR samples, but give you an idea of the differences.  Lima class 33 model from 1978 which was sold as a CIE A class in super train livery (orange).  25 years ago I was delighted and very content with the pair of CIE 215s seen below, so if you can respray an N-Guage BR class 33 and you'd be happy with its general appearance then you could also respray BR Mk1 or BR Mk2 coaches to go with it.  There are Irish liveried pre-coloured vinyl transfers available for some N gauge BR coaching stock available from a company in the UK.  The name escapes me.

Lima class 33 on right posing as an A class.  Silverfox A class model on left.  Note significant differences in cab windows and buffer beam.  The Silverfox lacks precision but at least looks more like an A class than a class 33 respray.

So yes if repainted like CIE 215 above it may suffice given the restraints of N gauge.  Luckily over the past 10 years all of the major  00 gauge Irish locos and many coaches are available in RTR as fine scale precision models thanks mainly to Murphy Models, and others as kits.  Hope this helps.

Noel

Edited November 23, 2017 by Noel
Lexdysia

[gavino200]

36 minutes ago, Noel said:

Hi Gavin

25 years ago in the 00 gauge world a Lima BR class 33 repainted in CIE orange super train livery passed as the closest thing to an Irish CIE A class, and I was very happy with mine back then, but not now as things have moved on.  However in N-Guage it might do for you.  Some pics below to show comparisons.

This was despite the incorrect 3 cab windows instead of 2, the cab side windows, port holes, wrong buffer beam, bo-bo bogie instead of co-co, head code box, etc.  The most noticeable different using the 2ft viewing rule is the 2 cab windows and protruding buffer beam.

 

These are 00 gauge RTR samples, but give you an idea of the differences.  Lima class 33 model from 1978 which was sold as a CIE A class in super train livery (orange).  25 years ago I was delighted and very content with the pair of CIE 215s seen below, so if you can respray an N-Guage BR class 33 and you'd be happy with its general appearance then you could also respray BR Mk1 or BR Mk2 coaches to go with it.  There are Irish liveried pre-coloured vinyl transfers available for some N gauge BR coaching stock available from a company in the UK.  The name escapes me.

Lima class 33 on right posing as an A class.  Silverfox A class model on left.  Note significant differences in cab windows and buffer beam.  The Silverfox lacks precision but at least looks more like an A class than a class 33 respray.

So yes if repainted like CIE 215 above it may suffice given the restraints of N gauge.  Luckily over the past 10 years all of the major  00 gauge Irish locos and many coaches are available in RTR as fine scale precision models thanks mainly to Murphy Models, and others as kits.  Hope this helps.

Noel

Thanks so much Noel. That Lima loco, is the EXACT model that I had when I was a kid. Come to think of it I remember looking at the trains in Blackrock Station and noticing that the locos were slightly different than mine. 

I also had a BR Class 33 loco, and while I have no pictures, I could swear it was exactly the same as the CIE loco except for the paint job and that thing on the roof. 

In any case, I'm trying to recreate a quite fuzzy childhood of the trains I used to watch as they whizzed by between Blackrock park and the sea. I'm not looking for much authenticity. The only person I need to fool is myself.  I would like the quality to be good though. I'm not a rivet-counter, but I do like rivets and I like them to look real.

Edited November 23, 2017 by gavino200

[gavino200]

27 minutes ago, Noel said:

25 years ago I was delighted and very content with the pair of CIE 215s seen below,

 

You didn't by any chance buy this through an add in the Southside newspaper from an eejit kid who was selling his trains for beer money?

[gavino200]

52 minutes ago, Noel said:

There are Irish liveried pre-coloured vinyl transfers available for some N gauge BR coaching stock available from a company in the UK.  The name escapes me.

 

Please let me know if you think of the name.

Thanks again!!!!!

[Noel]

13 minutes ago, gavino200 said:

You didn't by any chance buy this through an add in the Southside newspaper from an eejit kid who was selling his trains for beer money?

No they were both bought from W J Owens shop in Bray some time between 1975 and 1978  

Its your layout and all that matters is that you enjoy the stock you run.  It's an imaginary model world linked to our nostalgia memory from childhood experiences.

Below was the stock I happily owned decades ago.  Hornby BR Hymek with BR Mk2 in foreground, and Lima BR Mk1s in the back ground that passed as CIE Laminate coaches.

Lima CIE Mk1

A pair of CIE Supertrain locos (Lima BR 33s)

Triang LMS coach to look like CIE hand painted when I was 14

 

Hornby LMS stanier coach was LMS maroon resprayed earlier this year 

So anything goes  Have fun with your Irish N-Guage journey 

[Noel]

9 minutes ago, gavino200 said:

Please let me know if you think of the name.

Thanks again!!!!!

Here is the link: http://www.electrarailwaygraphics.co.uk

Look under their "international->Republic of Ireland/Northern Ireland" link.  They seem to have some good info on RTR locos that can be paired up with Shapeways 3D body shells which exist for every class of Irish loco.

[MikeO]

You can certainly cross post any of the photos from my T-Trak thread. The photo you included above with my converted Vossloh G 2000 also shows the intercity coaches which have the Electra Graphics sides( referred to by Noel)  added. The coaches are Graham Farish MK2 coaches with the paint work removed.. this needs to be done to ensure that the windows on the Electra Graphic sides are correct. 

 

 

[Irish_N]

Coming a bit late to this party, but sadly, Irish N Gauge is far too niche for even the likes of Murphy Models to do a run of locos or coaches RTR. I've been involved in researching and building an Irish (mostly GNRI/NCC) collection for around 12 years on and off, and unless you are willing to kit bash or accept some repainted vague lookalikes, you're out of luck.

[jhb171achill]

I understand that ECM Trains are planning a RTR 141. 

Since the 141s were for years the mainstay of many lines, in some cases almost to the exclusion of all else, a layout populated by half a dozen of these beasts would do well.

My understanding is that it won't come cheap, but will be of exceptionally high standard, as per all from the ECM stable.

Edited February 4, 2018 by jhb171achill

[murrayec]

Thanks jhb

Yes a 141 Gauge N is in the making, and others! here is a link;-

Eoin

 

 

[jhb171achill]

Now, boys and girls, if THAT doesn't look amazing in N gauge, I dunno what does!

[Mayner]

In my late teens/early 20s I built a reasonably successful Irish N scale layout around the walls of my 11X11, looking back probably my most successful and long lived layouts. The main reason for down -scaling from OO to N was out of frustration of trying to get something running in OO in an 8X6 box room and poor running quality of contemporary OO. 

My main inspiration was Brian McCann's Bagnallstown layout which was on the Irish exhibition scene in the 70s & 80s a folded dog-bone layout which featured a model of the station, the Thomastown and Barrow Viaducts. The layout featured typical trains of the period including an AEC Railcar set, a CIE Supertrain, a conventional passenger train and contemporary goods stock including loose coupled stock and Tara & Ammonia wagons. The locos and stock were modified/re-painted rtr, the Rivarossi Italian diesel with porthole windows was the main stay of the loco stud, the contemporary Lima N gauge motor was best described as disposable!

B121s waiting to depart on a Dublin passenger, B141 in the yard on the Liner. Redundant cattle? wagons stored in the loco shed.

The B121s & 141s ran on Atlas/Rivarossi SW1500 chassis, 001 Class on Atlas GP30 Chassis (wrong number of wheels but excellent hauling power slow running for loose coupled goods work)

While I kitbashed diesels and steam locos to look like Irish stock, the focus was more on modelling the railway and its environment than individual items of rolling stock. The fact that the coaches and wagons in a train are re-painted British r-t-r is not immediately obvious from the normal 2' viewing distance, but a pair of 121s and 5-6 miscellaneous coaches signals that the train is likely to be a through train on a second string main line from Connolly or Heuston to a destination in the West or South East, a 001 Class and 15 wagons an overnight goods from Heuston Goods or NorthWall Midland nearing its destination, a B141 & 2 bogie vans a mail or Newspaper train serving some provincial destination.

General view of the main station passenger train under the overall roof H vans on the goods shed road, cattle wagons and tank wagons oon the middle and cattle bank roads.

Interestingly I also built a built a plasticard B141 (hand) cutting out the parts and assembly was simple enough, but painting the loco was a bit of a struggle. All I had at the time was cheap instamatic camera so no close up photos of the locos or stock. The 001 was formed literally from a 0.30" plasticard box with 0.10" detail overlay similar to David Jenkinson's recommendations for 7mm coach building.

 

 

.

[GNRi1959]

Really amazing what you did here back then. Like you john, I was building layouts with little or no help, internet forum support or advice. I take my hat off to you. N gauge really is challenging now - even more so, then.

[Mayner]

On 2/5/2018 at 12:03 PM, GNRi1959 said:

Really amazing what you did here back then. Like you john, I was building layouts with little or no help, internet forum support or advice. I take my hat off to you. N gauge really is challenging now - even more so, then.

The hobby was firmly focused on modelling rather than collecting rtr models as the availability of rtr models was highly limited at the time. All the model railway magazines ran regular articles on kit building and scratchbuilding locomotive, rolling stock and buildings, model railway shops even in Ireland stocked detail parts, wheels and motors and experienced modelers in the model railway clubs were supportive

In the early 70s Irish railways were becoming more popular as a subject both for modelers who wanted something a bit different from BR, The Big Four. Irish layouts were starting to appear at exhibitions and articles on modelling Irish railways starting to appear in magazines with Tim Cramer publishing a series of articles from the 70s onwards in the Constructor, The Modeler, Model Railways and eventually British Railway Modelling.

Brian McCann's Bagnallstown encourage me to try N gauge initially with a folding 8X2 model of Kilmessan Junction (too cramped) that led me on to an 11X11 point to point and eventually a couple of reasonably large N Gauge American layouts, while I focused my rolling stock building efforts in 4mm scale British and Irish outline. While my current layout (10 years to build) is 45mm gauge American 3' gauge in the garden, I am undecided on the future of my American N Scale collection as I may need it some time when I down scale to a smaller property, I might even get something running in 21mm gauge.

John

 

[GNRi1959]

I've just started spending quite a bit on 00 gauge trackwork and stock and this is where I will rest my case.