G class diesel livery

[David Holman]

What colours were the Deutz G class diesels painted, please?

 Realise that they had the usual black and orange, but some photos (eg in Tom Ferris and Derek Huntress colour albums) suggest a pale blue/grey, while on Google there are a couple of models in a pale green. Am guessing the latter is the shade that followed the early silver. Is the blue/grey the shade that the 121s were painted in during the early 1960s? This would be my preferred colour for a 7mm model based around the Worsley etches, so will await answers with great interest.

[Old Blarney]

55 minutes ago, David Holman said:

What colours were the Deutz G class diesels painted, please?

 Realise that they had the usual black and orange, but some photos (eg in Tom Ferris and Derek Huntress colour albums) suggest a pale blue/grey, while on Google there are a couple of models in a pale green. Am guessing the latter is the shade that followed the early silver. Is the blue/grey the shade that the 121s were painted in during the early 1960s? This would be my preferred colour for a 7mm model based around the Worsley etches, so will await answers with great interest.

David, 

As far as I'm aware the G Class were never paints in Grey, as per the 121 Class.

The first deliveries, G601/603 were delivered from Germany between September and October, 1955. G602 was overhauled in July, 1960, repainted green and returned to the Clara Branch. G603, in CIE light Green was photographed in Limerick Station,26th, August, 1962.  G611 Class. All seven were delivered in February,1962, in green livery but  like the rest of this class of locomotives (G611) it would shortly be repainted in the new CIE Black and Tan colours prior to entering service. 

Information taken from - Journal of the Irish Railway Record Society, February, 2016, Vol 27, No189. Author. Author, Dan Renehan. "Deutz G Class Locomotives of CIE.  

Edited November 29, 2017 by Old Blarney

[popeye]

G601-613 were silver/grey and green.

G611-617 were green, black with white stripe and black with orange and white stripe.

 

 

[Garfield]

HI David,

The thread Eoin links to will hold the answer, but to summarise:

G601-G603 (the initial batch, different cab window arrangement and bonnet length, no vacuum brakes) initially wore silver with red buffer beams and black(?) numerals. They later wore green and ended up in Black and Tan. Not sure if they wore the black and white livery, but @jhb171achill may be able to confirm. 

The second batch of Gs were delivered in green but were repainted before entering service(!!!), so the livery on the green G at Downpatrick, while not quite fictional, was never observed in service. When they were retired, some wore black and white while others wore Black and Tan. 

I should have research material at the office which should contain further info. I’ll have a look tomorrow if I have time. 

[murrayec]

Hi David

We had a discussion about livery on these lovely machines some time back and JHB gave livery info throughout, see link below- I was also caught out on that Tom Ferris photo, it's silver! the negative is old style and its colour is going off and it was printed as light blue.....

Eoin

[murrayec]

Hi david

Also look out for the windows, see popeye's first photo of an early one- smaller windows to front and 3 of the same size across the back. Not sure if the Worsley Works 7mm etch has this if you are interested?

Eoin

[Eiretrains]

As far as it's know, the three members of the G601 Class (601, 602, 603) skipped the black/tan livery and all three eventually ended their CIÉ careers in the plain black/white livery. The CIÉ green particularly suited the Deutz, such as on G603 in the early 1960s and it's common knowledge that the later batch (G611 Class) arrived in green but were quickly received the new black/tan colours prior to entering traffic, then some of them too later received the black/white colours and both liveries could be seen in tandem, such as on Loughrea branch operations. The IRRS Journal (No. 189) already quoted above explains and illustrates this information in far more greater detail.

In the preservation era, I believe one of them carried the red Westrail livery, and as shown above, G611 was repainted into the CIÉ green colours, the nearest appearance to when they were delivered from Deutz in early 1962.

[jhb171achill]

Correct, Eiretrains - the G601 trio were silver, then green, then black and white - no tan ever. As you say, the G611s were concurrently both black and white, and black, tan and white. Naturally, these 7 were never green (in traffic) or silver.

It's worth noting that as so depressingly often in preservation, the green carried by G611 on the DCDR is wrong in a number of ways. First, they never ran in green - but - the livery is wrong. 

Green "G"s did not have black chassis - green. They had a large cabside number and no "snail", not a small one with the logo. No G of any sort ever carried a snail, silver or green.

Another common error is the depiction of lettering on silver locomotives of G, C, A and B101 classes. This was light green, near the black sometimes seen on models.

Going back to the original G601 class, silver locos had a silver chassis and green ones had a green chassis. None ever had a black chassis.

[Garfield]

12 minutes ago, Eiretrains said:

As far as it's know, the three members of the G601 Class (601, 602, 603) skipped the black/tan livery and all three eventually ended their CIÉ careers in the plain black/white livery. The CIÉ green particularly suited the Deutz, such as on G603 in the early 1960s and it's common knowledge that the later batch (G611 Class) arrived in green but were quickly received the new black/tan colours prior to entering traffic, then some of them too later received the black/white colours and both liveries could be seen in tandem, such as on Loughrea branch operations. The IRRS Journal (No. 189) already quoted above explains and illustrates this information in far more greater detail.

In the preservation era, I believe one of them carried the red Westrail livery, and as shown above, G611 was repainted into the CIÉ green colours, the nearest appearance to when they were delivered from Deutz in early 1962.

I’m almost certain there’s a photo of G601 in derelict condition wearing Black and Tan at Inchicore back in the late ‘80s/early ‘90s in one of the Traction & Travel books. Won’t get to check until tomorrow, though. 

[jhb171achill]

59 minutes ago, popeye said:

 

G611-617 were green, ......

.......But not in traffic. Delivered plain green - which could conceivably been undercoat - with no markings at all, but repainted black'n'tan before turning a wheel.

59 minutes ago, popeye said:

 

 

3 minutes ago, Garfield said:

I’m almost certain there’s a photo of G601 in derelict condition wearing Black and Tan at Inchicore back in the late ‘80s/early ‘90s in one of the Traction & Travel books. Won’t get to check until tomorrow, though. 

No - black'n'white only! The G601 were never tan-inclusive!

 

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, David Holman said:

What colours were the Deutz G class diesels painted, please?

 Realise that they had the usual black and orange, but some photos (eg in Tom Ferris and Derek Huntress colour albums) suggest a pale blue/grey, while on Google there are a couple of models in a pale green. Am guessing the latter is the shade that followed the early silver. Is the blue/grey the shade that the 121s were painted in during the early 1960s? This would be my preferred colour for a 7mm model based around the Worsley etches, so will await answers with great interest.

There was never a blue/grey, David. What you're looking at is the silver livery in its customary worn and dirty state. The bluish tint is the photo aging!

The 121 class arrived in "proper" grey - like that applied to H vans at the time, more or less, and somewhat lighter than that currently on 071s. They had yellow also, obviously unlike the G class!

Given the preponderance of utterly inaccurate liveries nowadays in almost every area of preservation, I hope that the gods will smile sweetly on B134 and it emerges in its correct livery, rather than the now all-too-common "approximation"! It's just as easy to paint it right as wrong.....

[Eiretrains]

In addition to Kevin Murray, the late Jim O'Dea recorded the G611 Class upon delivery at Inchicore in 1962, and shows how some effort had been made in accessioning some, but not all, the fleet into the CIÉ series (G611, G612 as well as G613 featuring their fleet numbers): http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000305876

It is unclear whether the numbers were temporary, and in any case, the livery was changed completely, it is interesting to note the cabside number position differed from that applied when repainted for traffic in the black/tan colours.

[jhb171achill]

Yes, Jimmy O'Dea, who I casually knew many moons ago, had - from memory - 2 or 3 pics showing this scene (though I might be confusing Kevin's stuff too - it's years since I've seen either).

In terms of the numbers being temporary, this is a "yes and no" issue; I doubt that they were reallocated as such, som in that sense they were probably permanent - but they were certainly temporary in terms of the overall livery as they all became black'n'tan before being introduced into traffic.

Incidentally, if anyone ever has time, make an appointment to see Jimmy's stuff in the National Archives - I don't think it's all online yet. When I went through his entire collection about six years ago none was, and it took me just two days.

Edited November 29, 2017 by jhb171achill

[Eiretrains]

38 minutes ago, Garfield said:

I’m almost certain there’s a photo of G601 in derelict condition wearing Black and Tan at Inchicore back in the late ‘80s/early ‘90s in one of the Traction & Travel books. Won’t get to check until tomorrow, though. 

G602 had a bit of black/orange tarpaulin thrown over it when stored in Inchicore during the 1970s, and at a quick glance a photo may give the impression of black/tan colour. Incidentally one of the Silverfox models now and again shows what the livery may have looked like on the G601s.

[Broithe]

Does anybody know exactly which shade of tan it was that they didn't have?

Edited November 30, 2017 by Broithe

[David Holman]

Wow! Thanks chaps, you are all stars.

Having parted with fifty squid for the Worsley etches, it seemed that I could knock up a model fairly quickly and given it is the Reading Trade Show this weekend, there was the opportunity to get the other bits I'd need. However, and I'm sure you guessed this was coming, not everything in the modelling world is ever straightforward. Life is complicated - that's why it's fun, as the saying goes.

 Problem numero uno is that I want to do the early version, so it can run on Arigna. Hence windows need to be altered and a cut out in the footplate filled in at the front steps. Nevertheless, the Worsley etches do go together quickly (inside three hours in fact), but of course I'm now busy back tracking and extremely grateful for the info to add to my own research. Some pictures to follow in the workshop section later.

 Now, can anyone tell me what the cab interior was like???

[jhb171achill]

Yes. Originally probably painted cream upper and ceiling, mid brown lower. Later, very pale grey throughout. I may have interior photos somewhere but if you look at the DCDR website some of their photos may show it.

As far as I know, the G611s were always the very pale grey inside.

In Arigna Road times (I'm assuming that Arigna Road closed in 1957!), a G601 class was silver. So, the first thing is serious weathering! The silver was on the roof and chassis also, relieved only by full red buffer beams. Lettering was of the larger style, and in pale green (not the black seen on Silverfox models) with no "snail". No "G" ever carried a "snail" in any livery.

In reality, the silver will be pretty dirty, especially round the wheels and roof. These were still steam days, so not just brake dust (as today) but also soot and smoke had an effect on the weathering of locos and rolling stock.

By the way, at Downpatrick, the liveries of G613 and G617 are correct. That on G611 is not for a number of reasons.

 

 

Edited December 1, 2017 by jhb171achill