Derry Maps 25:1 scale

[Colin R]

Hi Guys

I am aware of the 25:1 history maps of Ireland and the majority of the Irish Railway System, How ever I am looking for a clear map of Derry (Londonderry) and both Swilly and Donegal Stations.

I am sure someone on here sent me a link in the past, but for some reason I can no longer find it, if you help thanks.

Hopefully it will like the rest of Ireland and I hope I can trace other Irish narrow gauge railway in the North East of Ulster as well.

Regards

Colin Rainsbury

[Midland Man]

Dr E M Pattersons book on the railway has a LOT of track plans. I bought my copy in Galway and last time I was there they had 4 copy's left. To get good books on the topic or on any railway second hand book shops are the best place to get them.

[jhb171achill]

Here ye are, Colin:

There are more, e.g. Strabane, Donegal and Killybegs, if you want - but that’s the ones you were looking for plus a few others.

[Colin R]

Thank you for your help guys, the reason I was looking for 25 inch to the mile maps was so I could work out things like the length of the platform at Victoria Road on the Donegal,

I am never to sure just how long it was or the size of any of the goods buildings, engine shed and station buildings, I know I could guess, but theplatform length is the one that escapes me at present, as an example I read somewhere that the Donegal used to run speicals from Derry to Ballyshannon  that where 11 coaches in length,

If that was the case, was the long main platform at Derry able to take a train of 11 coaches?

Regards

Colin

[jhb171achill]

9 minutes ago, Colin R said:

Thank you for your help guys, the reason I was looking for 25 inch to the mile maps was so I could work out things like the length of the platform at Victoria Road on the Donegal,

I am never to sure just how long it was or the size of any of the goods buildings, engine shed and station buildings, I know I could guess, but theplatform length is the one that escapes me at present, as an example I read somewhere that the Donegal used to run speicals from Derry to Ballyshannon  that where 11 coaches in length,

If that was the case, was the long main platform at Derry able to take a train of 11 coaches?

Regards

Colin

In those days, nobody worried unduly if a train was a bit longer than a platform - I recall getting out of a long train, down onto the ballast, even at Finaghy, outside Belfast, one time! Thus, you might get an 11-coach train in a station designed for nine!

I looked in the Patterson CDR history to see what the platform length was, but it is not mentioned as far as I can see. An actual scale model, as you will know, of even a moderate-sized platform would be long on a model.

[Irishswissernie]

Michael Bunch , Donegal Railway Diary Vol 1 Page 79. (This is well worth buying)

Thursday 30 June 1955. A last school excursion was arranged totalling 14 coaches .There is a photo and a list of 11 coaches at the platform comprising numbers 53,17,12,14,38,40,13,32,16,15 & 28 These just fit the platform so if you can check out the coach sizes this will give you the platform length approximately. The other 3 coaches were the ex NCC Boat train ones and they were not allowed into the platform anyway as their lower doors fouled the higher platform height. Their passengers must have been unloaded onto the track.. This was some time after the official closure of the line 6 months previously.

As to maps , Alan Godfrey Maps have published re-prints of parts of Northern Ireland and actually do one for Derry ca 1905. https://www.alangodfreymaps.co.uk/ld1410.htm

Its the 25inch map reduced to approx 16 inches to the mile. Unfortunately only part of Victoria Road station is shown, most of the ex GNR Foyle Road station but not the loco shed. All of the NCC terminus is on the map.  A fair amount of the lines along the quays are depicted but the Swilly's terminus at Graving Dock which was a long way from the City Centre is missing altogether.

Ernie

Edited April 16, 2020 by Irishswissernie

[jhb171achill]

Most Donegal coaches were, over buffers, about 32ft. No. 1, the surviving 6-wheeler, was shorter, and obviously the NCC ones were longer.

For 11 coaches you could be looking at very approximately 115 yards platform length.

[airfixfan]

Most Donegal coaches were 31 foot long or later ones were 36 foot long with the exception of the ex LMS coaches. In Michael Bunch part 1 he explains that the 14 coach train was split on arrival. With 11 CDR coaches in both platforms. Therefore say 6 coaches in one you have a length of about 210 feet or 70 yards. The Bunch book is excellent and you can buy both volumes from the CDRRL in Donegal Town. Finally lots of photos of Victoria Road in Railway Archive Volume 2.

 

[Irishswissernie]

No I don't think so . On page 79 Bunch states the 11 coaches are at the platform , he doesn't say at the platforms , further the  photos show coaches only at one platform face. I have also measured the part of the station on the map which conveniently has the scale reproduced just underneath it. This part alone works out at over 300 feet or 100yards +  

Ernie

[airfixfan]

Thanks that's what happens when you go on your memory first! Checked Bunch this morning hard to believe they could run a special 6 months after closure! The double heading could have been a one off as well?

[Dhu Varren]

On 4/15/2020 at 9:13 PM, Colin R said:

Hi Guys

I am aware of the 25:1 history maps of Ireland and the majority of the Irish Railway System, How ever I am looking for a clear map of Derry (Londonderry) and both Swilly and Donegal Stations.

I am sure someone on here sent me a link in the past, but for some reason I can no longer find it, if you help thanks.

Hopefully it will like the rest of Ireland and I hope I can trace other Irish narrow gauge railway in the North East of Ulster as well.

Regards

Colin Rainsbury

Colin, you could try PRONI Historical Maps. I looked this morning and once I got the hang of it, managed to get a map of Derry showing both narrow gauge stations. The map can be zoomed into using the + & - buttons almost hidden in the top L/H corner. There is a measuring display in the bottom L/H corner which changes as the curser is moved over the map. My measurement of the platform was in the region of 70 metres taken on different maps.  

[Colin R]

Thanks Dhu Varren, I have looked at Proni site and I have now worked it out that Derry would fit an 00n3 layout of 15ft, in length and to do justice to the good shed and other buildings it needs a width of 4ft, while that sound very wide do not forget you would be looking from the river bank up to the road level and beyond, at present I do not know the exact drop from the road to the river, but I did see that some one has purchased some of the old station site to build yet more homes just there.

The map on the Proni site is not a very accurate track plan, but it does give the location of the buildings. 

Edited April 19, 2020 by Colin R

[Midland Man]

I might do a LLSR of bridge end or Island road in the late 50s using live steam engine that are used on a Z scale models. Only problim is would a Z scale model be able to carry the weight of no4/5?

[Colin R]

Many years ago in the Model Railway News (who remembers that publication) a couple of guys built an N Gauge scale (ie 2mm to the foot) layout of the Welsh Highland Station at Dinas; it was called the Vale Penwal Railway it had hand built working locos and rolling stock and also finally had an extension based on the Vale of Rheidol.

Some details of it appear near the bottom of this page

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/111723-2mm-scale-narrow-gauge-group/

http://www.zen98812.zen.co.uk/penwal.html

Regards

Colin R

Edited April 19, 2020 by Colin R
added information

[Arbhin]

As far as I know Ordnance Survey Ireland does have historical maps. But I don't know if they are 25:1. 

But You can always have a look: 

https://www.osi.ie/

Click on Map Viewer, than in the pull down menu on the side you can select 'Historical 1837'. I don't know if you want to go beyond that. 

 

Greetings,

Arbhin

[seagoebox]

According to the CDR appendix to the WTT  documents dated  1st June 1923 and 1st  June 1950, the arrivals platform at Derry accommodated 10 carriages, same as Clady, Killygordon & Ballintra, The longest platform was Rossnowlagh at 12 coaches.

[Colin R]

Thanks Seagoebox that is most interesting, I must look out for a copy of the Donegal WTT's

Hi Arbhin I have check the site out and the irish map people stop at the boarder and the maps from pronti dont get anywhere near enough with the detail, I haven't given up yet.

Colin

[RichL]

Have you tried https://www.alangodfreymaps.co.uk/

They do reduced versions of selected old OS maps, including Ireland.

[Irishswissernie]

15 hours ago, seagoebox said:

According to the CDR appendix to the WTT  documents dated  1st June 1923 and 1st  June 1950, the arrivals platform at Derry accommodated 10 carriages, same as Clady, Killygordon & Ballintra, The longest platform was Rossnowlagh at 12 coaches.

This would tie up with my original post of April 17 where Michael Bunch wrote in his book that 11 coaches were at the platform. The Arrivals platform would be 10 carriages plus the arriving loco at the buffer stop or approx 11 coaches.

 

Alan Godfrey do a map of Derry but it doesn't go as far as the Swilly Graving Dock terminus and has only part of the Donegal Victoria Road station.Most of the GNR station is covered but not the sidings and loco shed area. The NCC Waterside station is all there though. Its the official OS 25 inch map reduced to approx 16 inches to the mile.

Ernie

Edited May 28, 2020 by Irishswissernie

[airfixfan]

The Michael Bunch diaries in 2 volumes from the Donegal Railway Heritage Centre would be useful as well.

[Chris_w]

On 15/4/2020 at 10:55 PM, jhb171achill said:

Here ye are, Colin:

There are more, e.g. Strabane, Donegal and Killybegs, if you want - but that’s the ones you were looking for plus a few others.

Reference "Victoria Road" station.  Attached is an extract of a plan I’ve produced (CRA 2020) for 1948-49.

Reference "Graving Dock" / Pennyburn.   Another extract (CRA 2020) for 1953.

Considering that the authors actually visited these places they didn’t get a lot of the details right, especially the L&LSR.

Hope they’re useful.
 

 

[Colin R]

Thanks Chris for those, out of interest what scale are they drawn too?

 

Colin 

[Chris_w]

Scale….  That’s actually a difficult one.  They are based OS plans 1:2500, but they are not reproduced to any particular scale.  Each complete plan (map) does have a dimension scale so that you can measure.   That’s the best I can do for you.   
This is the bottom half of the complete plan.

 

[Colin R]

Wow thanks you the GNR(I) station is much bigger than I though.

Colin

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, Colin R said:

Wow thanks you the GNR(I) station is much bigger than I though.

Colin

It would have been the biggest of the four, spread out over a very long site.

[Chris_w]

A request….

Can anyone help trying to find an original of the 1848 map / plan of Derry-Londonderry drawn by the Ordnance Survey for the Corporation?

 I believe the National Archive of Ireland may have one.   There response for making a copy is difficult for me.   If anyone is ever there, could they use a digital camera (smartphone) to photograph the small section of the plan?   Although there is an online digital copy labelled 1848;  it is in fact a revised version dating from c.1856.

I’m attaching an infographic to illustrate these comments and identify the area required.   It would be the only railway in Derry-Londonderry at the time.  The ‘Gallows Strand’ terminus.   
 

 

[Tractionman]

OSI Geohive has OS 25" sheets online and free to view

 

https://webapps.geohive.ie/mapviewer/index.html

 

but coverage at this scale is for ROI only, not NI, as observed above, PRONI historical map viewer has 6" sheets which have less detail compared to the 25" scale, especially noticable looking at railways.

Here's Tooban Junction by way of example

cheers,

 

Keith 

[Chris_w]

I have reached a stage where I can’t do any more for Derry-Londonderry without the 1848 plan and inter-war revisions (1920s/30s).  So here is my current state of Londonderry Railway Evolution…….

Once again I’ll ask if anyone can visit the National Archive of Ireland and PRONI with a digital camera to take shots to allow me to finish Derry.   Anyone????

 

[Roger]

Hi Chris_W.

It is a long while since we were in touch. I have just been enjoying your drawings Of the railways of Derry.

I trust you are well. I am sorry that I cannot help with your request as I live in Telford now.

I know that you have allowed me to share some of your work on my blog in the past and I was wondering if you might allow me to share extracts from your drawing showing the railways as they were in 1948/49 as part of an article that I am writing about the closure of the Port and Harbour Commissioners Tramways in Derry.

Kind regards

Roger Farnworth

(rogerfarnworth.com)

 

Edited August 28, 2023 by Roger