Old Wagon

[Drimoleague]

Hi All,

Came across this when helping sister move into newly acquired property. Any idea's on age etc?

 

Tks

 

SM

https://www.flickr.com/photos/82527284@N06/50156329753/in/dateposted-public/

[Drimoleague]

Hi All,

Came across this when helping sister move into newly acquired property. Any idea's on age etc?

 

Tks

 

SM

https://www.flickr.com/photos/82527284@N06/50156329753/in/dateposted-public/

[airfixfan]

Looks like an old railway coach not a wagon.

[minister_for_hardship]

Compartment passenger coach.

Could be anything from mid 19th to early 20th cent. Hard to tell without more photos.

Is it in Ireland?

Edited July 27, 2020 by minister_for_hardship

[jhb171achill]

VERY interesting. The design of this does not correspond with anything I’m aware of, though the flat sides vaguely suggest the Cork & Macroom Railway, or if narrow gauge, Cork & Muskerry.

What length and width is it?

[airfixfan]

Where in Ireland was the photo taken?

[Drimoleague]

Taken in Waterford. It had been used as a chalet etc and then had a shed built around it which has protected it fairly well. Hard to get a picture of the entire outside without doing more clearing. I'll try to get measurements etc. There is some graffiti on a glass pane which has the date 1891 but  one would be be a bit dubious about its origin etc. 

[Drimoleague]

Its not unlike this one on the left 

https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/5297-camping-coaches/?do=findComment&comment=87913

[jhb171achill]

The one on the left is of Waterford, Limerick & Western design, while the one on the right (green) is classic GSWR of 1910-20 period.

However........ That holiday home one is a VERY different animal! Looking at that second pic you’ve put up, I am inclined to think it’s a Macroom coach. If so, it will only be the second known to still exist. VERY rare, VERY interesting.

[Lough Erne]

Very interesting, however it does seem very hard to place with the shape and style of the beading, in addition to the recessed windows seen on the exterior. Possibly suggests a cleminson design though not certain. If you can grab a few dimensions it would really help. I was leaning towards Macroom though I am not convinced at this stage.  I wonder is it ex W&T?

Also what may give us a clue would be if there are any original door handles and external handles in place, as well as light fittings - you may find initials stamped on these. The door hinges may also have initials stamped into them as well.

[jhb171achill]

I don’t think it’s W & T - windows different.

 

[minister_for_hardship]

2 hours ago, Lough Erne said:

Very interesting, however it does seem very hard to place with the shape and style of the beading, in addition to the recessed windows seen on the exterior. Possibly suggests a cleminson design though not certain. If you can grab a few dimensions it would really help. I was leaning towards Macroom though I am not convinced at this stage.  I wonder is it ex W&T?

Also what may give us a clue would be if there are any original door handles and external handles in place, as well as light fittings - you may find initials stamped on these. The door hinges may also have initials stamped into them as well.

If it had match strikers, these may have had initials, luggage rack brackets, or a builder's plate on the frames underneath if that's still there or accessible to see.

[jhb171achill]

Did a bit more delving. My initial thoughts on it being an "oddball" were based on the fact that windows with curved tops and square-cornered bottom corners were the stuff of the MGWR and, on some stock, CBSCR.

The side curvature and beading is most in-MGWR-like. The height of the windows, and the side curvature are not very West Cork-like, either.

The W & T don't appear to have had carriages of this window design - the above vehicle has comparatively wide window panes for an old coach. That COULD suggest a Tramore vehicle, but none of them as far as I am aware had curved tops and square (ouch!) bottoms, nor did they have any sort of beading or ventilators like the yoke above.

I tried to find decent shots of Macroom coaches this evening to compare, but there's so little to be seen on that line. However, the beading certainly reminds me of a photo I've seen somewhere in the past, as does the side profile, and the ventilators above the doors appear to be of that type.

In the absence of anything else, I'll stick with my initial hunch that it's from the Cork & Macroom Direct Railway. I would be interested to know more.

I should add that all of the above is on the presumption that it is clearly of the 5'3" gauge. What width is it? Is there and end view of it?

If it turns out that it's narrow gauge, we've another issue entirely on our hands; with Cork & Muskerry Railway being the most likely contender. I'm not sure it IS narrow-gauge, though.

[minister_for_hardship]

I'm pretty certain it is not Muskerry.

Doors at extreme ends and open saloon with longitudinal benches, not compartments, a la Tralee and Dingle, should be a dead giveaway.

Edited July 27, 2020 by minister_for_hardship

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, minister_for_hardship said:

I'm pretty certain it is not Muskerry.

Doors at extreme ends and open saloon with longitudinal benches, not compartments, a la Tralee and Dingle, should be a dead giveaway.

True, and the beading isn't totally right either, but the windows are. If this thing turns out to be narrow-gauge, the only possible explanation would be a very heavily amended one like that - I just throw it in as a very outside possibility. My money's on Macroom!

[Mayner]

It looks like Drimoleague may have discovered a rare find & it looks to be in quite good condition.

There is a photo of 203D an ex-Dublin Wicklow & Wexford Railway (DWWW) bogie coach with similar paneling arrangement and  profile on page 27 of Des Coakham's  Irish Broad Gauge Carriages. The second photo with the open door indicates that the coach has a slight tumblehome in the sides rather than being slab sided.

 203D appears to be one of a pair of 44' bogie coaches built by Birmingham Carriage and Wagon in 1895 before Richard Cronin took over as engineer and began introducing coaches with a high parabolic roof that became a distinctive feature of DWWW and later Dublin and South Eastern Railway Coaching stock.

Its possible that there may be photos of similar coaches in Ernie Shepherds Dublin & South Eastern pictorial.

[jhb171achill]

I checked Ernie's book and while there are several obscure carriages that at first glance might fit the bill, closer inspection tends to discourage comparison....

[irishrail201]

On 7/27/2020 at 8:24 PM, jhb171achill said:

 

If it turns out that it's narrow gauge, we've another issue entirely on our hands; with Cork & Muskerry Railway being the most likely contender. I'm not sure it IS narrow-gauge, though.

Its broad gauge, we have a member who inspected it

[jhb171achill]

4 hours ago, irishrail201 said:

Its broad gauge, we have a member who inspected it

Then I’ll go with my initial instinct: it’s a VERY RARE Cork & Macroom Railway coach.

[skinner75]

That's a nice little bonus to have come with the property!