jhb171achill

I very much like that idea. I have a fondness for Black 5s, and the standard British designs. I'm following the progress of the 3MT project over there in the Republic of Cummins with great interest - a perfect "new-build" branch engine. I am also interested in the "rail blue" era, which I recall from a few holidays in the Federation of Boris in 1970-4.... might gather a few blue things at some stage! Great Pictures, from Ballyercall-in-the-Wolds, County Somerset........!

By the time cattle traffic finished at the end of 1975, most of the stock of cattle wagons had been gathered in Cork for scrapping. I cannot say for certain what proportion was fitted, but certainly there were many still unfitted. Some had been repainted brown after 1970 when the brown wagon livery appeared, but probably two-thirds were still grey. This may or may not suggest they weren't "modernised". The wagon is a GNR van used for cement, I believe. Here, it has newly been repainted in CIE grey with appropriate logo, approximately 1963. Its GNR origin is evident from the tell-tale corrugated ends (also seen on the adjacent vehicle) and the "N" added to its GNR number. On the original of this pic you can also just about make out "G N" on one of the axlebox covers.

Hi Buz OK, the first thing to remember is that these are (British) LMS coaches, using moulds presumably used for such things in the British market. they are unfortunately not even remotely close in appearance to ANYTHING which ever ran on the CIE system. To an Irish modeller, they ARE however of use to a UTA modeller - as they are very close indeed to several designs used by the NCC lines north of Belfast, right to the end of steam and into the early 70s. But not CIE. However, needs must. As many comment here, over and over again, and very rightly so, we are spoiled with the great and increasing amount of ready to run Irish stuff now. But with a small market, and pre-1972, a BEWILDERING array of all sorts of non-standard designs of locomotives, carriages and wagons, even if the market was huge, IRM, Murphy, Provincial Wagons, 00 Works, SSM and all the rest would need to live to be 400 years old before they'd get through half of them. The correct coaches to operate in the Bachmann set would be of an absolute multitude of types, for which it would even be difficult to get drawings to scratch-build, let alone buy off the shelf. So, British repaints are the best realistic compromise. Livery wise, the shades of green are correct, though the line below window level is far too thick and the "flying snails" are a bit too big, and the wrong shape. But I'm nit-picking here, although a rivet-counter will appreciate what I'm saying. For the "two-foot rule", they are absolutely fine. The cravens went into traffic in 1963 and were used mostly on main lines. Some old wooden carriages, like the model, DID still exist in traffic, and as other posts I have made will illustrate, green coaches were in use for a few years more. However, here we run into two problems. 1. Those carriages still operating in green were NOT in THIS livery; this is the pre-1955 darker green livery, same as used on green steam engines, station paintwork, CIE buses, CIE lorries and CIE-just-about-everything. Except, that is, passenger railway carriages and diesel locomotives! A handful of older coaches still retained a much-scruffyish older lined green until the closures around 1961, especially in West Cork - but anything green beyond that was the lighter colour. 2. Some old wooden coaches did work well into the 1960s, and few were still used on Dublin and Cork locals until as late as 1974. But these were repainted black'n'tan. So, in answer to your question, the answer is "not really". Yes, some green ran with cravens when new. But this is the wrong green. Some timber coaches ran with Cravens - but they didn't look like these! Hope that helps, and nobody died of boredom going through it all!

The lamps wouldn't have come from GM - they were locally added, according to the required lamp positioning for whatever train they were operating. Standard railway lamps. In livery terms, they were all repainted black'n'tan by 1969, or possibly 1968. The first to be repainted black/n/tan appear to have been about 1964. Towards the end, the grey got quite shabby looking. During the short period of grey and yellow, a couple received red buffer beams on top of the grey livery in the pic above. During the time these engines were grey (following delivery in 1961), "A" class locos had a number of liveries. 1. A few retained the old silver - by now quite atrociously filthy - until about 1963. 2. A few more retained the green used on carriages, with about half a dozen sporting a darker shade. IRM have reproduced the "normal" green on the model of A30, and the "lesser green" on the model of A46 which was the first to get it. Green engines were to be seen until approximately 1965. 3. Black with full tan sides. This started appearing in very late 1962, with a couple of "A"s being the first to bear it. B101s and "C"s followed, and the first 141s were delivered in this livery. The tan, officially described as "golden brown", but in reality a sort of orange colour, as we all well know from photos, with a heavy brownish tint, came up to waist level. the white line at roof level went right along and round the sides. Some locos carried this right up to 1969/70 when they were re-engined with GM engines. 4. All black. Well, apart from a white flash above window level on cab fronts. This seems to start appearing about 1964. With the Crossley engines, the number of leaks of oil and heavy smoke these things emitted, the orange bit on the sides got filthy quickly. Thus, the all-black livery! This would have been familiar enough, since a few years earlier some steam engines were black, and the grey ones so dirty they often LOOKED black... So this is another overlap with the grey livery. 5. All black with a yellow rectangular panel on the ends. This seems to have appeared concurrently with, or very soon after, the all-black, about 1964/5. The examples above (1), (2) and (3) were concurrent with the first few years of grey 121s. The examples (3), (4) and (5) all lasted slightly longer than the last 121 becoming black'n'tan. In the pic above we see two grey locos, plus the inevitable "tin van" attached to one, probably being added to a passenger train being made up. In summary, the only liveries NOT suitable for an "A" class alongside a grey 121 are: - Re-engine "A" class livery - where the scheme is black'n'tan, with low or high waist, and a number ending in "R"; thus A12R, A5R, A58R etc. - anything orange and black, be it "Supertrain" (1972-87), "Tippex" (white lines added with "set of points" logo), or the same with the "Three Pin Plug" logo. During THESE times, 121s were black'n'tan to 1972, then by degrees repainted in the later liveries. Hope that helps! It might be added that when 121s were new, all carriages were green bar a small few still silver. Cravens didn't exist. During 1963-68, or thereabouts, while 121s were grey, carriages were a mix of green and the new black'n'tan livery. Mid sixties, you're looking at 50 / 50, gradually more BnT, less green.

I'd say this would be a sort of "military" colour, rather than standard GSR grey (which, of course, would be a good bit darker). It's hard to tell from old photos, but much military equipment was of this sort of order, I believe, though others here will know more about military stuff than I would.

It was just a throwback to when there was 1, 2 or 3..... The GSR abandoned second class in the 1920s, soon after its inception. Narrow gauge lines abandoned it early - although few ever had it to start with. The GNR did a few years later. But the NCC kept the three-class system until the late 1940s!

Interesting - I didn't have the exact date either. My guesstimation above is that the UTA were just a bit later? Early NIR tickets still had "second class" on them, I think. So that would make it 1967 or 1968 on the new NIR - can anyone confirm? In terms of Craven livery, then, it may be taken that they ALL had "2" on their doors when new, and after 1965 - or, on first ever repaint if not before - these were painted out.

Sounds about right. I think the UTA / new NIR changed "second" to "standard" about 1967.

Indeed - in those days, and until comparatively modern times, most railway companies did a summer and winter timetable. For 1938 I have June & September. Ping me what lines you want and I'll send them to you.

Just need the layout for it now, popeye! Soon!

IMG_5030.MOV

Indeed - and it carried on into comparatively modern times, and on NIR as well until the mid 1990s. My personal recollections suggest that by approximately 1972 anyway, maybe before, the "2"s on Craven (and other laminates, Park Royals, etc) were all gone. I suspect they disappeared in the late 60s, along with the last green coaches. A snapshot of the 1960s this evening, following a little jaunt I made to Hawkins Street this afternoon...... The black'n'white photo shows that (in this case about 1960), this short wheelbase coach, I THINK of Wisht Caaark origin, boy, was still in the old pre-1955 darker green. A handful of coaches - mostly, in fact, in Cork - retained this old livery just past 1960. IMG_5025.MOV IMG_5030.MOV

Superb job, Ken, looks great!

That RAL 6037 is indeed as close as anything I've seen. It is extremely hard to be exact seeing these on computer screens, but on a model it looks OK to me. A note on colour matching: I arranged recently for IRM to test actual paint samples in those Fry models which I knew to be authentically painted (most but by NO means all!). IRM appeared with a very complex set of colour samples, obtained at great expense I believe - and we tried to match many things, as simple as CDR red, or CVR dark carriage maroon. We got several matched absolutely authentically, by comparing the colour card with the model - but in a few cases there was still just something which didn't seem to sit quite right on the sample. In my experience, personal memory of those who saw a colour day in, day out, in all weathers and lighting conditions, and especially if they have a naturally artistic eye, seems to beat anything else. However, with RIM's help, job done. Once time permits, if we're not all locked down again, I intend to accompany another greatly esteemed reader of these pages, who has an all-singing, all-dancing Electro-Gubbins Machine which can match colours even more accurately that paint swabs, and who lives not far from me (you know who you are!). We'll do another job on this stuff.... Sadly, Fry's models are either silver, black'n'tan, or the OLDER green. He didn't do any model in the 1955-63 carriage green!

Ah sure we're nearly six times champions now, bud.....we can go anywhere, bud. (Runs for cover..........)

Forgot to add, Patrick, in terms of what coaches were green during the "yellow patch" and "plain" black liveries, a reasonable rule of thumb might be, for ALL types of coach other than Cravens: 1960 Most green, a few silver 1961 Most green, silver very rare and mostly confined to tin vans and a few mail vans 1962 As above, silver very rare 1963 80% green, 20% black'n'tan (End of six-wheelers / start of Cravens which were BnT from new) 1964 60% green, 40% BnT 1965 25% green, 75% BnT 1966 10% green, 90% BnT 1967 5% green, most BnT 1968 Very occasional green, mostly an old mail van or tin van - virtually 100% of all stock BnT 1969 All BnT - Last of the all-black and yellow-patch liveries. 1970 All BnT 1971 All BnT 1972 onwards - all BnT except the new A/C (Mk 2) stock; this was the dawn of the "orange and black" era, and the "Supertrain" livery.

Latterly, to Cabra, but in days past for export too, from North Wall and Maysfields in Belfast, where “Central” Station is now.

I’ll be going through this collection over the winter. It’s not indexed or catalogued, shoe boxes full of old prints, in all sorts of shapes. Some notes of some of it. You’ll get a UTA “Jeep” and then a Dublin tram.... Mostly “grey’n’green” era CIE, though, very appropriate for this thread. As I mentioned, it has to be said that few of the images are much good, so much sifting is necessary! The vans you mention obviously started life in grey. From about 1963 or so they started adding the yellow and black “wasp stripes” to the duckets, with black above and below them. Like everything else they only started painting them brown in 1970, but you are right in that they seemed to repaint more of them, and quicker, before the end of loose-coupled goods in ‘76. By the end, very few vans were still grey. I only ever saw one at that time, in Heuston goods yard (I think) about 1974/5. Green coaches were - in lessening numbers - a feature until c.1967/8, and that did overlap with the “yellow patch” livery.

Hi Hexagon These trains were made up largely of laminates of several types built between 1951 (pre-“laminate” construction but similar appearance) to 1959/60. I have a pic somewhere of the inside of one of the studio coaches which was (in this case) an old wooden GSWR coach. I’ll try to find it. There might have been an odd Bredin among them, but Park Royals would be less likely. The dining car could be an old GSWR one, or one of the new 2400 series. A “tin van” or maybe a couple of them typically took up the rear. A train of this nature would be nice behind one of the forthcoming “A” class. Motive power would be a specially cleaned up “A” for these. Like steam engines, Crossley “A”s didn’t stay clean too long but these trains (which I very vaguely remember) were pristine. Naturally, loco and coaches at the time you mention were green. You mention timetables. If there is any year you’re interested in, PM me and I’ll scan images of it to you.

So THAT'S where grandma went......

Bob was a great man for tales of the past....a fascinating character. The few times I spent a very long time on the phone with him I scribbled down as many notes as I could of what he said! There's a load of his fascinating material in the IRRS, thankfully.

THAT's it! Yes, I remember them well. Just not on the railway! I had an uncle who was a sales rep for Castrol, so these things stick in my mind...........

Fascinating pic - and is that a line of B & L narrow gauge open wagons in the background? I remember Lobitos well - I think I recall petrol station signs - did they do petrol as well as oil? Burmah was very much a "high street" petrol station brand in the 1960s and 70s, along with "Mex", "Shell" and "BP", and if we go back to the early 60s and before, "MS" (Munster Simms). MS had yellow and grey signs.... Lobitos products were never carried by rail in Ireland. As mentioned above, the CDR carried some - I think they had up to five tank wagons, and these were numbered in a series the same as the several that the GNR had. With these small few exceptions, transport of petroleum products in tankers in Ireland was very much rarer than in Britain. Oil in canisters used to be carried, at one stage, in open wagons.

I'm a filthy little boy, Ken. Naughty me! Old B & W pics of GNR blue locos show what appears in one to be almost black, and in others light grey! Grey and blue seem especially prone to this. On the basis that the German tank above is shown pretty much accurately, it's a bit on the dark side. However, when a grey loco was weathered, it could end up looking almost that colour - and the reason? They "cleaned" them with filthy oily rags!

Recent posts have touched on all sorts of matters related to the much-awaited grey 121s appearing, plus the rest of them; what train consists are realistic, tin vans, livery mixtures, what ran with what, good stock, and the big issue of the sheer variety of what was to be seen on the railway in the 1960-70 period, or - to put it another way - into what environment did grey 121s appear. This applies, of course, equally to the forthcoming silver, green, black, and black'n'tan "A" class - and for those who have the likes of their Silverfox cousins, B101, "G" and "C" classes. The first thing - for modellers who have had fewer birthdays (and decades!) than I, is that the entire railway system changed more in the early 1970s than even at the end of steam. Block trains of uniform stock only then appeared and became the norm; a concept totally unknown when the first 121s roared up to Dundalk with a good train (they worked goods before they ever worked passenger!). Sidings and small stations dramatically reduced and eventually vanished. In both goods and passenger trains, barely two vehicles were alike, such was the huge variety of stock. Unlike today, when each type of train has different couplings, ALL railway vehicles, north, south, east and west, used exactly the same couplings, so the idea of incompatibility between couplings simply didn't exist. At all. If a modeller had limitless skill, limitless time, limitless budget and limitless imagination, it would still be a hard ask to reproduce this period in all its detail. So I thought I'd fish out a few more pics as well as the ones I posted during the lockdown, but with more of an emphasis on the 1960s - the period when the "grey'n'green" era would morph into the "black'n'tan" era. My earliest railway memories belong to this time, and thus is my preferred period, but the real point is that opinion or not, this was the most varied time in the railway - arguably ever. Many books are full of photos of the time, and I would recommend detailed perusal of photos in them all - always look what's in the background! To try to cut through a mass of information for modellers who get the grey or black'n'tan 121s, and who get the pre-"supertrain" liveries on the IRM "A"s, a few simple broad pointers, first - exceptions existed, but this gives the broad gist: Timeline 1960 "A" and B101 classes dominate most main line goods train, with AEC railcars dominating most passenger trains, though loco-hauled too. Some steam still, mostly on branches like the North Wexford, Ardee, Ballaghaderreen, Ballinrobe, Kenmare, and Loughrea. Almost no regular steam anywhere else, though ballast and (seasonally) beet brings them out of the woodwork. They almost all look extremely run-down. Many six-wheel carriages are still in use - the passenger brakes being mostly GSWR, and the passenger-carrying ones mostly Midland. The vast majority of these six-wheelers are in Cork, and used on Cobh commuter trains at rush hour, and summer Youghal excursions. All goods trains are loose-coupled, and shunting and spare locos are based all over the place, with many steam sheds still being open to cater for them. All wagons are grey, without any exceptions, all passenger stock is green, except for a small few still not repainted from the short-lived "silver" (which is now filthy nondescript grey), and around the former-GNR lines, and the DSER, a few ex-GNR coaches still in either brown or dark blue and cream. Everything has guard's vans. There is no such thing as air-braking, nor will there be for many years. All goods train are loose-coupled, so must have a goods brake at the end, unless it's maybe a single goods wagon tacked onto the back of a passenger train, as sometimes happened. All passenger trains will have a guard's coach, almost always a six-wheel passenger brake of GSWR parentage, or a modern "tin van". 1961 121s appear. The grey Murphy ones! They will retain this livery for a few years, with repaints to black'n'tan between 1964/5 and about 1968. So, a clean 121 will have green coaches and loose-coupled wagons with guard's van. Other diesels are a mixture of either silver or green. 1962 Towards the end of the year, a decision is taken to bring in the black'n'tan livery, which has been applied to a few coaches. 1963 The 141s start entering traffic, and a major drive appears to take place to repaint carriages in black'n'tan. The last passenger-carrying six-wheelers are withdrawn in Cork in the spring, leaving about six or seven full-brake six wheel coaches in the new livery; the last of these will survive until 1968/9 on the Galway line. Working steam comes to an end after 129 years. By this stage, steam working has actually become extremely rare, with the few branchlines where it eked out its last days now closed or made goods-only. B101, E, A & C class locos start being painted black'n'tan; after a while, some will be repainted all-black, and after that some - but not all - of the A & C classes will get the yellow patches. The new "Craven" coaches appear; at first, and for a good few years, they will only be seen on main lines. Thus, laminates and Park Royals, plus still a few wooden bogies and Bredins, provide the stock for the majority of trains, and all secondary services. 1964/5 By now, something over half of the passenger stock is in the new livery, the rest green; thus, a grey 121 will need at least SOME green carriages! Many tin vans retain increasingly shoddy "silver", others are green, and others again in BnT. All good remains loose-coupled, and the "palvans" are introduced. 1967 The 181s appear. By now, the very first cement bubbles do too - they run a few at a time in ordinary goods trains, or as a set - but not in braked block trains - thus, a guard's van is necessary with the initial (grey) ones (as it is with beet trains!). Talking of which, open wagons are now about two-thirds "Bullied" corrugated types, with the rest wooden-sided traditional ones, mostly of 1940s Inchicore construction. 1969/70 It's beginning to look more modern now. The 4-wheel "back-to-backs", containers, and the longer-wheelbase four wheel flats are appearing. The re-engining programme is making B201s out of the "C" class, and AxxR out of the "A" class, with the all-black loco livery finally disappearing in favour of everything being variations (high and low waistband) of black'n'tan. The new NIR "Enterprise" heralds the first example of British-outline standard trains of a same type of coach. The bubbles are being repainted orange body and grey chassis, with the newest ones delivered that way, and containers are becoming more common. The die is cast; in only 2 years' time, we'll have the Mk 2s and "supertrains". The wagons start being repainted brown. By the end of loose-coupled trains in 1976, about two thirds were brown, the rest still grey, with even a tiny few still with flying snails. BR and Dutch vans start appearing; now, the tin vans start retiring. The last will still be in use on Ballina - Limerick - Rosslare in 1976/7. But for the 1960s they really ARE needed! Liveries Apart from details mentioned above, the simplest summary would be: A, C, B101: Silver new, repaints into green from 1958, with the last few C's entering traffic green. 121: Grey and yellow at start - first to be black'n'tan 1964 or 5; last about 1968/9. 141 / 181: Black'n'tan from new. 1412s have no CIE badge when delivered (the "roundel" has not yet been invented!) but the 181s do, and at that stage they start putting them on the 141s too. Oddballs: The three E401s / G601s - silver, green, black. Never black'n'tan. The seven G611s - black or black'n'tan always, never green. E421s - black or black'n'tan always. The "K" class - GNR navy, then CIE green, then all black. Carriages: Sixwheelers - all green to the end (1963) except for the half dozen full brakes which stayed on during the 60s - they got black'n'tan by 1964. Wooden carriages - those in traffic got black'n'tan by 1968 or were scrapped. Bredins, Park Royals, all the many types of laminates, Cravens - all black'n'tan. First ones 1963, last green ones about 1967. Wagons: Grey. Nothing brown at all until 1970s, thus long after grey 121s were black'n'tan. Train Consists Now, these are TYPICAL: by NO means exhaustive, as readers will appreciate! Passenger trains Main line: 121, Crossley "A" or 141, maybe nine carriages plus vans: Tin van Laminate Craven Laminate Park Royal Craven Craven Bredin Laminate Tin heating van Mail van extra? Bogie of GSR or early CIE origin. Secondary or branch line: Two to five coaches plus tin van. Coaches will be old wooden bogies, laminates, Park Royals occasionally, or laminates of various types. Greater number of still-green stock! Loco - "C", 121 or 141. Goods: Mostly "A" class, green or black. Old guard's vans gone by about 1964, with standard CIE 20T and 30T types all over the place. Last GNR ones scrapped, not that CIE ever used them much! While many modern layouts have the various types of modern bright yellow maintenance train consists, in the 1960s all PW and maintenance stuff was - you guessed it - grey! BUT - sadly - instead of a train of pristine HOBS, I've yet to see modelled that all-too-familiar sight coming out of a junction in the 1960s - a dirty "C" class with the LIFTING train from a closed branch: The following from a large amount of new material that I am going through, and will need a decent quality scanner and printer for: (All pics P Dillon Collection) It is THIS world into which the brand new grey 121 class "yanks" appeared. How very different from the world they left about fifteen years ago. The very last photo shows a scene so rare, it may be unique. A NEWLY-PAINTED grey J15 in Cork - one of the last few steam engines painted, and which would be scrapped only months later, with a GSWR bogie in quite new black'n'tan. The first black'n'tan stock appeared only a year or so before the last steam engine was withdrawn. In this instance, the steam engine is on shunting duties. See how clean "new" grey paint looked!