jhb171achill

I don't know for certain, but I suspect before steam ended, as the only pictures I've ever seen of these things after 1960 are in grey. At a very wild guess I would be inclined to say GSR all-grey up to late 1940s, then red with "Ranks", then maybe grey with "Ranks" in the mid to late 1950s - and then grey with the various "snail" variations until the mid 60s, when "roundels" replace the "snails". It is possible that red with "Ranks" and grey with the same were concurrent, or that the grey came before AND after the red. It would be useful if anyone could throw any more light on this. As mentioned earlier, I'm sure I saw a pic of one in post-1970 brown too, and as others have pointed out, the odd badly faded grey wagon with "Ranks" was still to be seen just after 1970.

Good to see you here again, Nelson, and congratulations on finishing your course. I wish you the very best of luck with your job applications.

These wagons appear to have always been owned by the GSR and then CIE. There's an important distinction here. We often hear of references to "private owner wagons"; which are exactly as it says on the tin. But these were exceptionally rare in Ireland. usually, the local railway company simply supplied the relevant rolling stock - but sometimes with the name of the customer on them. This was as much to inform railway staff that the relevant vehicle was not to be used for any other traffic, than to advertise. In answer to Ironroad's question above, I believe that CIE-branded ones were "mixed up" with "Ranks" ones; I am fairly certain I have seen photographic evidence of this. But because Ranks didn't own them - the railway did - at times they just got the railway livery. I was interested to see variations on the location of the "snail" on the artwork John has produced above, so a train could have a mixture of red Ranks, grey Ranks, and grey snail-variations in the same train (so we each buy one of each!). Now, I also believe I've seen a pic of one in post-1970 CIE brown livery; any confirmation of this would be of interest. But it would have been short-lived, as I think these wagons were done with by 1975 or so. Naturally, a brown wagon would only have a "roundel", as the "snails" were replaced almost ten years before anything was ever painted brown. Oh - an addendum: the "curse of the black chassis" can be lifted with the RED variation of these things: obviously, all grey means grey chassis also, if one wants accuracy, but the red ones had black chassis - or most anyway; I have no evidence of any being turned out all-red (which would look somewhat odd anyway!).

Yes, it hadn't worked much since the 1960s, in fact. I think its last very short lived fling was about 1972. Someone here will confirm exact details, I'm sure!

And then you'd have Porteeeedown. Platform 1 - Green. Platform 2 - Orange. Platform 3 - Red, white and blue. Platform 4 - Green, white and orange. Lucky there isn't a platform 5 (for Dungannon and Armagh in the future)....

Had a look in Senior’s stuff - nothing suitable for above.

Very interesting train make-up indeed! Old wagon, albeit presumably fitted (why?), GSWR brake, Bredin GSR coach - and look what's on the end - looks GNR! Presumably 1959-62?

The horsebox on the left is a GSWR one, and the carriage is, very definitely an MGWR standard 3rd. The "L"-shaped door handles were indeed a Midland feature - as "Midland" as the "flyaway" cab! Unusually, the door vents have been covered up / removed' otherwise the panelling is almost all original. It is in the "secondary stock" unlined plain green.

In the times these things ran, there was rarely an entire rake of anything at all! Several of these would be in a goods train going to wherever they were being loaded or unloaded, but not for this type of wagon would you get a whole rake - thus - an ideal buy to mix in with other stuff.

Can you imagine NIR having to change the signage in Derry & Newry to green, and Lisburn and Carrickfergus to orange!!!

This is an old British Railways sign - judging by the dark blue background I think that was North Eastern Region? So, folks, no gricing today.....!

I’ll have a look in Senior’s photos. He was up there once as far as Rathkenny, I think. Part way up anyway. I’m pretty sure he didn’t photo it as he was in the cab but who knows!

Yes, like anything there were variations, though not as many as one might think - really, the main differences were varying levels of wear and tear, thus weathering. Livery wise there were but five variations: 1. Any built before approx 1954/5 - all grey with eau-de-nil painted flying snail & number. 2. Repaints of the above and new-builds between approximately 1954 and 1958 - all grey with white painted FS & No. 3. From 1958/8 onwards, white FS & numbers, but the FS is now STENCILLED. A lighter grey appearing from about 1960/1. 4. After 1963, lighter grey with CIE "roundel", which was initially all white, but by the late 60s, White let's surrounded by a tan "broken wheel". 5. After approx. 1970 all brown with all white "roundel" and number. In all cases, whether grey or brown, the wain was entirely painted this colour. Newly painted brown wagons stood out with their brown roofs, but exhaust from locos and weathering often toned these down to LOOK mid-greyish. Many wagons - I would guess up to a quarter - remained grey to the end (mid-70s), some even still with stencilled "snails". In modelling variations, a pair of wooden planked doors on one would be a suitable structural difference - maybe just one wooden door! From close inspection the type of panelling they had looked and felt to me like some sort of very heavy duty marine ply. Towards the end, from memory most had the brake wheel.

GSR vans were a different animal. The internally-framed ones had horizontal planking on the outside, and were possibly somewhat smaller, from memory - slightly shorter wheelbase, I think? The GSR's forerunners to the "H" vans had a similar frame but horizontal planking. Many were still about until the early 60s. The actual "H" vans starts appearing in the 1950s and as others have noted, thousands were built until the early to mid 1960s. But not to be confused with the GSR types. Some older (and lower, shorter or both) vans of ex-GSWR or Midland origin were still to be seen in the late 1950s. The brake wheels appeared in the 1960s. Yes, they'd get patched from time to time. I saw one in Kilkenny goods yard with planked doors, doubtless off an old GSR van. Come to think of it, I've a notion that wasn't a one-off.

I think “typical” is the least appropriate word I’ve ever heard to describe Limerick Junction!

Just to add this: wagons (only) had the logo applied by stencil (not used in any other way) from the mid 1950s until the “broken wheel” took over in 1963. This from one of Senior’s pictures....

Likewise, I agree. Many small manufacturers need our support, and even if an offering isn't truly perfect, best to be careful about just slagging them off. I had investigated these things too - if they were half decent I'd have half a dozen of the 2nd & 3rd class equivalents of the above. But they're very rough indeed - and I had been advised this by others. A pity, because as you say they have some nice stuff. I have an interest in various foreign railways too, and Shapeways do some items from these which would also have interested me, but even their illustrations show they're too coarse. I'll make no further comment on them, as I am conscious that to some they're OK, and it's a free world!

Tempus is busy fuggitting away, MM! Malahide and its little plastic cases calls my attention.............................

Thank you Patrick. I've nothing more for the moment! I've been able to get back into Malahide so I haven't as much time on my hands anyway. What I do have is loads and loads of old glass plate negs, these being my grandfather's. But few if any are of railway matters - long-gone aunts in Co. Offaly, farm animals on their family farm there and so on.... I need to get these scanned. There are hundreds. When I do get back to the railway stuff, there is some more of the stuff I've been trotting out over the last couple of months, and a handful of the rarest of all - anything I took myself that was even half-publishable! Then there's senior's colour stuff. Theses again were mostly family stuff, but there are several dozen decent colour shots worth showing. I will get around to it at SOME stage, hopefully! Glad you've enjoyed it - hopefully it's been some distraction to "Internment"............ I think I will rename my study "Long Kesh" instead of the "catacombs"...............!

The Cravens only ever carried two liveries - and even that was just two slight variations of the same one. If you start with black all over, then put tan / orange on both sides below window level, that's the basics. Until the early 1990s, the only other thing was a single 6-inch wide white line above window levels. After that, there was (a) an additional thinner white line below the windows, and (b) both a white AND an orange line above window level, but the earlier variation lived on with some coaches carrying well into the mid (maybe late) 1990s. The BR van pictured above was a separate variation - these got the white line below, but not the orange line above. The reason was that they are based on a British Mk. 1 design, which were lower in height than Irish stock - so there "wasn't room" for the extra orange line above! There is photographic evidence of at least one Craven carrying this variation, but almost certainly not for long. The livery on your loco is early 2000s era, by which time all Cravens in use had the orange line above, and second white line below the windows. Both of the vans pictured above were in use the same time as your loco, so you could find either at the end of a train.

A two coach train is perfect as an authentic model of a Ballina branch train in the 1990s / early 2000s. You also need a van to go on the back of it - either a "Dutch" van or a "BR" van. Get a few fertiliser / cement / 42ft flat wagons to go behind it when it's hauling freight instead.

Ah sure I travelled in a 2700 class railcar - and enjoyed it! (How many "Hail Marys" is that?) TALKING OF WHICH: Guy goes to confession. Guy: "Father, forgive me, for I have sinned" Priest: "Yeah, I saw it on IRM"....................

The two would have looked very different, as the UTA and NCC style of lining were totally different. I looked up that pic - interesting stuff!

I love it!!!!! Superb!