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Further to my earlier posts, herewith some information hopefully of interest. I have included 1986 Connolly - Rosslare (for Dave182; I've nothing later than that!), plus for Stephen I have Limerick - Rosslare from 1951 (with 1c coin), 1959 (with 10c coin), and some other stuff from 1967 (with 1c and 10c coins). This will include Limerick - Sligo and Dublin - Westport, for junctionmad's request about Claremorris. There's also a Claremorris - Ballinrobe timetable in there. So here goes. This first lot are all 1986.

That's it, Mayner, thanks.

The GNR senior management (and I knew several of them in later years, so this is from the horses mouth), would have very definitely gone ahead with full dieselisation after 1953, had the funds been made available by Dublin and Stormont. While they did look into various options, the strongest probability was a great many more AEC and / or BUT cars for ALL passenger trains. Thus, they would have gone down the road of the UTA in turning passenger work over to railcars. We would probably have seen a CIE / UTA / CDRJC style conversion of many varied older loco-hauled coaches to railcar trailers and intermediates. A truly Irish phenomenon. Goods would most likely have ended up in the hands of a mixture of German and British built locomotives - goodness knows of what design. Strangely, among the paperwork of a former (Dundalk) Works Manager, an old family friend, no mention was made of shunting engines! So a GNR which survived could have seen a 1966 dawning with a handful of old steam engines used for little more than shunting about Dublin, Belfast or Dundalk. Possibly the "Enterprise" might have retained loco haulage, however both CIE and the UTA used railcars on it in the 60s! Had the bulk of the GNR lasted longer, what of containerised goods traffic?

Am I imagining it or was there a kit at one time of a laminate brake?

Now that's seriously good news from Wsehty! It's great that we can now have authentic CIE trains. For younger enthusiasts, used to identical rakes of DD, Mk3, Mk2, NIR, Mk4, or (in recent years) Craven stock, do bear in mind that prior to 1980 trains with all the same type of carriages twere virtually unheard of. All through the sixties, seventies, and eighties, trains of non-a/c stock would be a complete mix, a typical make up being a mixture of Cravens, Park Royals, Bredins (pre late 70s), several types of laminates, and prior to 1974 still the occasional old wooden bogie of GSWR origin, or an ex GNR K15. These would be trailed by a four or six wheeled tin van, a BR van or a Dutch van. Until about 1969 there were still at least two old wooden six-wheeled passenger brakes in use, by now in black'n'tan. (The only six wheelers ever to get that livery, incidentally). All of the above are now available in model form. Excellent news.

Excellent pic!

Cement bubbles were another exception. Initially grey all over, later they had orange bodies and grey chassis. Later again, black chassis and cream bodies.

I'd forgotten about that, UP6936.... that's one of the "oddball exceptions"! Related - wagon ironwork. Often, old black and white photos lead us to believe it was picked out in black, or at any rate a darker colour. It wasn't - this is rust! I suspect this is the reason girl the zebra-like "black stripes" on Whitehead's "Ivan". Ironwork was body colour with GSR, CIE, GNR and UTA. There were very few exceptions, one being some Donegal stock (not all). Blue painted CIE wagons like the sheet-sided bagged cement wahons, had blue chassis and drawgear. The ammonia tankers had a dark green lower body colour - bogies and drawgear were dark green too.

I remember years ago seeing the preserved CIE diner at Downpatrick for the first time. Still in black'n'tan, the DCDR guys had repainted the roof light grey, because (a) it just needed to be paint and (b) they had grey paint available. I remember thinking how odd it looked, and over the years I've seen many a model superbly built, but with the roof the wrong colour. When we stand on a platform beside a railway vehicle the roof is not so obvious, but on a layout we're looking down on it and it's a lot more obvious! Just as Hornby and other RTR manufacturers tended to use a standard black for all wagon chassis, they also tended to use white, grey or black on vehicle roofs. The point of this post is therefore to clarify what colour many roofs are, based on my own observations of layouts, proprietary model manufacturers, and the real thing. Just off the top of my head.... For many British wagons, chassis and roofs may well have been black or grey, even white; but not in Ireland! Most railway companies here painted wagon chassis the same colour as the body - particularly CIE. Only in very recent years, we see black bogies emerging under brown container flats from Limerick, but bogies, drawgear and couplings were always brown when the wagon was, or grey before that. Likewise with roofs. CIE vans in grey: same shade grey roof. Brown: same shade brown roof. Locomotives: steam engines in green had black cab roofs, but for the vast majority, grey as all over body, boiler, smokebox, chimney, wheels etc was the thing. Diesels in BnT era were obviously black-roofed, and apart from the first few A class repainted in "supertrain", all CIE / IE diesels always had orange roofs, same as body colour. This, however, could get quite weathered, especially on the top of the central section on 141 / 181 / 071 classes, and on the cab roofs of 121s, as they were taller! Carriages - in the CIE green eras of both darker and lighter green, almost all roofs were black. Some older wooden coaches have been seen with dark grey roofs. Ends of ordinary carriages were black without exception. In the mercifully short-lived silver era, ends, bogies, chassis, couplings and roof were all silver too - while dirt allowed it! Needless to say, in the BnT era, all black, with orange roofs standard for all post 1972 stock, except for those in the "international" orange, black and yellow livery, and the short lived Mk 2 AB stock bought from the scrap dealers in the UK. There were one or two other oddball exceptions, having black roofs. The UTA used a grey colour for roofs usually, somewhat darker than the Whitehead RPSI livery, which is a lighter grey. The GNR used this too. UTA "brown vans" were an exception to the general rule. Not only did they have black chassis, unlike most Irish wagons, as they ran in passenger trains they also had grey roofs. From memory, though I can't be 100% certain, when NIR repainted these vans maroon, they had black roofs. Just a detail, but for many modellers details are of the essence!

Soon, it will be possible to see, measure and photograph all this stuff close up at Downpatrick, once the GNR Bundoran Junction cabin is fully up and running.

When the occasion arises, DiveC, mention to me and I'll ensure you're not run over!

The Dublin & Meath Railway planned to build a line at least as far as Cookstown, Co Tyrone at one time, possibly to the north coast. The GNR thwarted it and it ended at Kingscourt, though the original idea for this to be a through station is obvious from the track layout. Equally, the GNR intend it's Carrickmacross line to go further - not sure where to. So, with the MGWR inheriting a line way up north, deep into GNR and possibly even NCC territory, and the GNR looking into MGWR territory, an amalgamation between the two might have been a runner at one time. What would that have looked like? What would have happened after the creation of the border in 1921? How would Stormont and Leinster House have dealt with it in the 1950s, if it wasn't initially (or at all) to become part of CIE and UTA? Ex MGWR J18s on the goods through Castlewellan into Newcastle, and blue 4.4.0s on the Clifden line? With the SLNCR having the same company at both ends, would it have become part of it all? What about train services - expresses from Broadstone via Cavan to Enniskillen and Derry?

Generally model points are sharper radius than prototypical ones, to save space. Real ones could vary. If you ever want to visit, say, Downpatrick, to measure / photograph, let me know by PM and I will assist in arranging it. In the model world, best and most convenient results are had by using large radius ones.

Brilliant! Excellent weathering too.

When I was in my early teens, I stuck paper sides on Hornby Mk 1s with CIE type carriage designs. That was about as good as it got 45 years ago!

Looking great so far!

The world of the stopwatch still exists, Leslie - just about!

Or models? :-)

Interesting, Garfield..... I certainly know there was lots of coming and going re Dundalk seeking quotations and information from manufacturers both in the UK and on "mainland" Europe.

The standardised coupling arrangements (today, we've regressed!) didn't apply to the narrow gauge. Not only were the couplings a good 10 inches or so different in height (LLSR ones higher), but no two narrow gauge lines across the country had the same loading gauge. Schull & Skibbereen stock was only six feet wide, whereas Ballycastle stuff and Donegal stuff were almost 50% wider - and a good bit higher. And yet, almost all narrow gauge lines (the Cork and Muskerry and Bessbrook & Newry being exceptions) used the standard chopper coupling. An amalgamation of the GNR and DSER would indeed have been interesting - blue 4.4.0s round Bray Head would probably have provided the single most photogenic railway scene on the island! Hard to know about the Harcourt Street line, as it was CIE who closed it, but you could be sure the articulated GNR Gardner railcars would have had many outings there. They'd have needed a new works, possibly, as neither Dundalk nor Grand Canal Street would have been enough. Maybe they'd have concentrated locos at one location, carriages at another. I'm unaware of any definite plans to electrify anything GNR, though it's possible there was unofficial consideration given. If we had ended up "standard" gauge, cue an influx of clapped out British stuff, like the Isle of Wight! While it would have meant that we never heard a 141, or classes 071, A, B, C, D, E or G, and we never had De Dietrichs or Darts, MGWR six wheelers or the like, it would have made modelling Irish railways a lot easier, as we'd just have to repaint ex-LMS or GWR stuff, readily available in all shapes and forms from Messrs Hornby and the like.

That sort of thing, yes. Through goods wagons as well. Only certain vehicles from one system could access the other, as the two companies' couplings were different heights!

Ah yes, I meant the models..... I travelled all over Ireland in the rest thing, back in the day, when pussy was a kitten...... :-) I've seen the Clonakilty and Kiltimagh ones, and the RPSI and DCDR have used several examples in traffic in recent years. But thanks for pointing it out! Incidentally, I wouldn't be me without pointing out that the livery details on DCDR's 1918 and 3223, and all examples at Kiltimagh and Clonakilty, are entirely wrong in almost every detail.....

As late as 1930, the Lough Swilly & Co Donegal were considering amalgamation. While this would probably have had little effect overall due to joint lack of money - in fact, might have hastened the demise if the whole lot, can we imagine a Walker railcar taking us from Strabane to Burtonport? Or a link from Pennyburn to Victoria Road in Derry?

Well said, Glenderg. To me personally, they're fine but it's clear they're not rivet-count perfect. On seeing the green one, I rounded on details of the livery - though obviously (a) of all inaccuracies in any model, while it's by far the most obvious, it's also the easiest to put right; and (b) I would again echo the point that any model is better than none. I haven't seen one in real life, nor the park royal. Maybe it was photos or my eyesight but the PR did seem to look well.

That's actually the Senior Locomotive Inspector, CME and Chief Draughtsman all rolled into one, junctionmad.......