hexagon789

Should have flogged it on eBay! You see BR "T" keys appear on there all the time, sometimes for a pittance, sometimes for stupid money. I often wonder who buys the things

They got in there quick!

As tempting as they might be I'm not sure I want to have a dual dual location/dual era layout as opposed to my present single era one location/dual era other location layout. Otherwise matters are only going to get crazier! I can see I'm not going to be able to resist and it is going to become dual dual! Oh dear!

Well, this is the announcement of the century! Proper Irish Mk3s, count me in for some in Supertrain. Now the big question... do I want to break my railways period setting and get a 201 or not? ;) I'll be interested to see how the Mk3s turn out, very interested.

While this is undoubtedly an ECS working, in one of the IRRS Journals of the 1970s I do remember reading of an unusual working in the news section - an orthodox set on a Dublin-Cork working augmented by two Mk2D standards and EGV on the rear. All conveying passengers as far as I could make out.

An excellent resource for railways in general. There's a good shot of the original interior of the NIR Enterprise Mk2b First Class coach somewhere else on that site.

I wouldn't mind seeing that, 071 and 073 look superb in their respective repaint schemes. It would complete a nice trio as well - 071, 072, 073.

Well said that man, I fully agree! I mean I like it on 141/181s but I'm not sure about 071s.

There was a photo shared within another thread on here where an otherwise all 'Galway' set had a normal EGV at the front and an ex-Composite on the rear irrc breaking up the harmony of the colour scheme

They entered service in May 2001 and were among the last 2Ds in service, probably because they were in the best condition. No Composites, ex-Composites or ex-Firsts were treated. The vehicles were first used mixed in with un-refurbushed vehicles, the first dedicated set made entirely of these was launched on the 23rd July 2001. The cost for the 8 vehicles was IR£800,000 (€1m) The set went into the link: 0520 Galway-Hueston 1100 Hueston-Galway 1510 Galway-Hueston 1905 Hueston-Galway Vehicles treated were: 5601 - Gen Van 5411 - Kitchen Buffet Standard 5209*, 5213, 5216, 5225, 5232*, 5233, 5235 - Standards *5209 and 5232 were not completed until September 2001 The refurbishment included bodywork corrosion treatment, and 'stick-on' roof, new carpets/seats/curtains/tables/toilet fittings and externally of course a new livery similar to that originally carried by the 201 Class. (Information can be found in IRRS Journal no. 146, October 2001)

Well no luck finding the original photo, that had a set with at least two non-Tippex Mk3 suburbans in the set and was pictured at a station. However, there is a silver lining - my search turned up not one but two other photos of a rake of suburban Mk3s, each set had one vehicle in Supertrain, that is to say no white 'Tippex' bands.

I'd guess because of the different air-con system but I've not checked if Irish 2Ds share the larger roof hatches. Or A or Z, or the Pullmans etc etc

That would be 1995 then for when the 201s appeared but if anything Belfast was about the last mainline they appeared on - IR seemed to want to get the Hueston links over to 201s first before they put any 201s on the Belfasts. While nearly all the Hueston InterCity links are booked 201 in 1995 for example, there are no 201s booked from Connolly. I can help with your basic IR Belfast Mk2D set though, bear in mind Northern Ireland Railways provided most of the services - two diagrams, IR only provided one set until the De-Dietrichs took over and a shared stock pool was created. Typically the sets for Belfast would be: Gen Van+First*+Kitchen Buffet Standard+ between 5-7 Stds** Notes - sometimes only 4 standards but 7 was usual particularly on busy days * this would be 5106 as this was the last full First, the other being converted to Standards from 1985 onwards. If it was unavailable one if the Sligo dedicated Composites would cover. **-the Standards could include the Composites converted to 54-seat Standards, but I've yet to see an ex-First appear in a set. Hope that helps in some way, any further questions just ask! ;)

After spending some more time comparing the types, I've noticed another reason to use a 2F as an approximate for an Irish 2D - they share the same B4 bogies variant with friction rather than hydraulic dampers. I must admit that surprised me given all British B4s had hydraulic dampers up to the Mk2E coaches and the Irish 2D slot between the British 2D and 2E age-wise but there you go, you learn something new every day as they say! I should also have added I can offer some prototype formations if you give a rough year/years and route, I have a list of some 2D set makeups for the IÉ era.

Don't thank me too much, I still haven't found the blasted photo! Doing my nut in trying to recall exactly which Flickr account I found it in.

No definitely push-pull intermediates, they had hopper windows not sealed ones. I've an idea of a couple of Flickr accounts to check but I'll leave that to tomorrow.

No, after the Mk3s were introduced the Mk2D fleet was downgraded and by the IÉ era the rakes were very mixed. The only one real certainty is the Gen Van would be the first or last coach! There does seem to be a vague pattern that the Buffet Standard would often be behind or within two coaches of the gen van but this was not at all a hard and fast rule, I've seen plenty of rakes when the buffet is over half way through the set from the Gen Van and even one where it was the last coach. You have to go back to the IR era for even a vague sort of general formation and that would even then only apply to Belfast and Sligo sets which still had Super Standard accommodation and so were formed Gen Van-First (Belfast)/Compo (Sligo)-Buffet-Standards* *which could include former composites or Super Standards downgraded. Into the 2000s with the advent of the De Dietrichs on Belfasts and end of Super Standard accommodation on Sligos all Mk2D sets were Standard only though a few composites remained such internally until at least 2006. By the time of withdrawal afaik everything was converted to Standard Class: You had the original standards seating 64 The former composites seating 54 The former super-standards seating 62 All 2+2 standard class seating. Indeed, BR went a bit full circle there. Mk1 and the first Mk2s seated 64 in standard class opens, by the Mk2b the removal of the centre vestibule and positioning of the toilets at opposite ends meant seating capacity was reduced by 2 as the shape of the toilet required an offset passage from vestibule to passenger saloon so the seating was only 2+1 at the outer ends. This was carried over into the BR Mk2D hence these only seated 62 in Standard Class opens, the Mk2E design changed this. The toilets were placed at diagonally opposite corners, reduced in size and made square and this enabled a return to 64 seats in the Mk2E and F standards.

Need a "when" for that. The types of vehicles and seating arrangements were altered over the course of their life quite considerably. The first change came after only 4 months in traffic for instance.

Well at least Irish Rail only had one variant of air-con Mk2! I'd say go 2F because the underframe equipment is the closest. I actually spent some time comparing BR Mk2D, E and F and Irish examples and the more I noticed that really there are elements of all 3 variants in the Irish ones as well as some items which seem unique to the Irish ones. Really one should describe the Irish Mk2 AC stock as a hybrid Mk2DEF!

Well I thought that, but some months ago I came across a photo on Flickr of a push-pull set with at least two intermediates in Supertrain instead of Tippex completely blowing away my belief that all Mk3 push-pull coaches started life immediately in Tippex.

Mostly related to the air-con, B4 bogies (hydraulic dampers vs friction dampers), door droplights and certain internal features. Presumably 2D because that's what existed when CIÉ placed the order. Literature of the time says based on the 2D design so that's the official line even if the reality is different. Broadly speaking above the solebar they are more like a 2E, below like a 2F as the Irish 2D share air-con systems with the British 2F and the gubbins for that is different from the 2E. There are a few purely Irish differences as well, need to find a book to remind myself of specifics. Finally, you can only model two types by using the 2E as a based - Super-Standard (First) and Standard. Nothing is remotely close to the unique Gen Van, Kitchen Buffet Standard or Composites.

Further additions have been made since my last post, there are two Irish/Northern Irish additions - the NIR 1981 timetable and a further CIÉ one. The CIÉ is the (in)famous "Supertrain" timetable of April 1973, I have a paper copy myself and to say it was revolutionary would be an understatement, many lines would not see as frequent a service again until the 1990s or even until the railcar revolution. Link here for those interested: https://timetableworld.com/ttw-viewer?token=02e204b2-a597-4565-8ee4-9ac4027df899

I never noticed that before either, but once you've had it pointed out you can't forget it! I hate to have to say this, but given there are discrepancies as I've outlined, which source can one trust implicitly? Is there one? It's rather different now because for the present rolling stock one could simply physically go and check (ignoring the virus situation of course), but for stock which no longer operates it is of course impossible one has to trust books/magazines have their figures correct and they don't always. If two or more sources agree I think it's reasonable to accept the data as correct but when they don't - it's very difficult to know which figure to take as correct.

All of them or bits of them? I imagine they would've tried for a homogenised fleet of say four 8-car sets as the Western Region was considering before withdrawal. The 2+1 seating would probably also have been replaced in Second Class I would've thought. And finally, new bogies rather than simply stretching them to 5' 3" given the poor riding qualities of the bogies fitted. St Pancras to Manchester I believe via almost the original route of the Midland Pullman (there's a large gap between Matlock and Buxton on the original route).

The freight info is why I think 1987 in particular is quite sought after. They are very infrequently found now, perhaps everyone into modelling atm that wanted then bought them 10 years ago! I don't mind admitting how much I spent on them, perhaps it will demonstrate why these £100+ figures for one book are far too much in my view - I spent £35.99 on all 3 together, the 3rd edition cost me the most. I will also admit to being a carriage-nerd too! I like them, the 1987 edition is one of my most prized Irish railway stock books because it's right on the threshold between the old and the new so to speak. That is one slightly concern of mine though - accuracy. I used to assume the data was 100% accurate however since obtaining them there are some discrepancies between certain coaching stock details between them and information as per IRRS journals and indeed one discrepancy, perpetuated also by Platform 5, which I found photographic evidence to disprove. Edit: I should add I'm referring to the ITG books, I've never found any of the data in the Doyle/Hirsch books to be at odds with the Journals