hexagon789

Well at least Irish Rail only had one variant of air-con Mk2! I'd say go 2F because the underframe equipment is the closest. I actually spent some time comparing BR Mk2D, E and F and Irish examples and the more I noticed that really there are elements of all 3 variants in the Irish ones as well as some items which seem unique to the Irish ones. Really one should describe the Irish Mk2 AC stock as a hybrid Mk2DEF!

Well I thought that, but some months ago I came across a photo on Flickr of a push-pull set with at least two intermediates in Supertrain instead of Tippex completely blowing away my belief that all Mk3 push-pull coaches started life immediately in Tippex.

Mostly related to the air-con, B4 bogies (hydraulic dampers vs friction dampers), door droplights and certain internal features. Presumably 2D because that's what existed when CIÉ placed the order. Literature of the time says based on the 2D design so that's the official line even if the reality is different. Broadly speaking above the solebar they are more like a 2E, below like a 2F as the Irish 2D share air-con systems with the British 2F and the gubbins for that is different from the 2E. There are a few purely Irish differences as well, need to find a book to remind myself of specifics. Finally, you can only model two types by using the 2E as a based - Super-Standard (First) and Standard. Nothing is remotely close to the unique Gen Van, Kitchen Buffet Standard or Composites.

Further additions have been made since my last post, there are two Irish/Northern Irish additions - the NIR 1981 timetable and a further CIÉ one. The CIÉ is the (in)famous "Supertrain" timetable of April 1973, I have a paper copy myself and to say it was revolutionary would be an understatement, many lines would not see as frequent a service again until the 1990s or even until the railcar revolution. Link here for those interested: https://timetableworld.com/ttw-viewer?token=02e204b2-a597-4565-8ee4-9ac4027df899

I never noticed that before either, but once you've had it pointed out you can't forget it! I hate to have to say this, but given there are discrepancies as I've outlined, which source can one trust implicitly? Is there one? It's rather different now because for the present rolling stock one could simply physically go and check (ignoring the virus situation of course), but for stock which no longer operates it is of course impossible one has to trust books/magazines have their figures correct and they don't always. If two or more sources agree I think it's reasonable to accept the data as correct but when they don't - it's very difficult to know which figure to take as correct.

All of them or bits of them? I imagine they would've tried for a homogenised fleet of say four 8-car sets as the Western Region was considering before withdrawal. The 2+1 seating would probably also have been replaced in Second Class I would've thought. And finally, new bogies rather than simply stretching them to 5' 3" given the poor riding qualities of the bogies fitted. St Pancras to Manchester I believe via almost the original route of the Midland Pullman (there's a large gap between Matlock and Buxton on the original route).

The freight info is why I think 1987 in particular is quite sought after. They are very infrequently found now, perhaps everyone into modelling atm that wanted then bought them 10 years ago! I don't mind admitting how much I spent on them, perhaps it will demonstrate why these £100+ figures for one book are far too much in my view - I spent £35.99 on all 3 together, the 3rd edition cost me the most. I will also admit to being a carriage-nerd too! I like them, the 1987 edition is one of my most prized Irish railway stock books because it's right on the threshold between the old and the new so to speak. That is one slightly concern of mine though - accuracy. I used to assume the data was 100% accurate however since obtaining them there are some discrepancies between certain coaching stock details between them and information as per IRRS journals and indeed one discrepancy, perpetuated also by Platform 5, which I found photographic evidence to disprove. Edit: I should add I'm referring to the ITG books, I've never found any of the data in the Doyle/Hirsch books to be at odds with the Journals

They seem quite sought after, but really any more than £30 is utterly obscene. They can be difficult to obtain, months can go by with none available - it took me 18 months to source all 3. After obtaining 1987 first it was 17 months until I found 1981 and then less than two weeks later I managed to get 1979! In other words it's your luck on how long it takes to source them all. The ITG books by comparison seem easier to obtain and are usually cheaper on average, I think it's like anything - the greater the demand and rarity the higher the price but those copies at over £100 are just not going to shift. There is still, over 3 years after I first saw it, a copy of 1987 for sale at £50 no one has bought it in all that time. Copies at less than £20 do sell well though. I often refer back to mine fairly frequently as while I can easily recall the Mk2d and Mk3 number series the older coaching stock are too numerous in type and variants to recall all the number series and types so I regularly look back for that information. I will say I prefer the ITG books, they have more information such as preserved stock, loco working diagrams and speed restriction tables and better photos but the Doyle/Hirsch books are invaluable for the late-1970s to 1980s modeller IMHO. Perhaps a fair comparison would be that the Doyle/Hirsch are like a Platform 5 pocket book while the ITG books are more akin to a Platform 5 Combined volume.

Good luck mate Three. 1st - 1979, 001 Class on cover 2nd - 1981, NIR 111 on cover 3rd - 1987, DART EMU on cover Technically the 1987 covers IÉ in a fashion as that's when CIÉ split the rail operations into Irish Rail/Iarnród Éireann and the book reflects this by changing the title from Locomotives and Rolling Stock of Coras Iompair Eireann and Northern Ireland Railways to Locomotives and Rolling Stock of Irish Rail and Northern Ireland Railways for the final edition. For post-1987 you want the Irish Traction Group books published in four editions - 1987, 1989, 1994 and 2004.

First edition Doyle/Hirsch rolling stock book, bids starting at £2 & ends in two days if anyone is still on the look for a copy at reasonable prices: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LOCOMOTIVES-ROLLING-STOCK-OF-CORAS-IOMPAIR-EIREANN-NORTHERN-IRELAND-RAILWAY/264923945235?hash=item3daeb29913:g:xd0AAOSw7TNfobo-

I believe that's how it works, I can't see how else it would without an air-conditioning plant to do the job of sucking the air in.

Forced air ventilation might be a better term. Vents on the roof take in air forced by the movement of the train through the air. This is then heated as necessary and directed via ducts to vents in the passenger accommodation. Windows within the passenger accommodation also have sliding ventilators (moveable segments in the glass) which allow more ventilation in hot weather. These were marked on British stock with arrows to show how far they could be opened to allow fresh air in but without draughts if wished. It's worth noting that while the British Mk2D and 2E stock had sealed windows they actually were still pressure ventilated with the air-con system fitted on top essentially. This proved to be rather poor in service, the Mk2F stock therefore had no pressure ventilation system and had fully integrated air-con, this system was also used on the Irish Mk2D stock and later on both British and Irish Mk3 stock. Hopefully that helps a bit? I'm not always that great at explaining things!

An intriguing and probably unique combination.

Still full sized windows or the reduced height Mk2 AC style? It was even longer than I thought - about 10 years since I last saw it!

As far as I know the Brake First Executive retained pressure vent Mk2-style sliding toplight ventilators and not sealed windows. Apologies, it's been that long since I watched it. I thought there was a compartment but obviously not.

Found something I was looking for earlier - a YouTube video in which, at 3 mins 40, there is a Black 'n' Tan pair of Baby GMs on a mixed formation of Mk2Ds. I'd guess at mid-1970s, probably about 1975/76.

I believe that was the original intention, but they soon decided not to perpetuate it with other locos. Funny you should mention that the "A"s looked more modern than the GMs, I'm reading a set of journals I recently procured and a short piece in the news section of one refers to the GM classes giving excellent service and rarely failing but the "A"s suffering many failures even after re-engining (apparently electrical failures). The uprated ones were far more reliable as the electrical equipment had been refurbished and the traction motors rewound. As for the decade I can only experience it through photos and the old few film clips but the atmosphere is completely different to the modern railway in almost every way. Not ancient but definitely still not as reliable as the GMs

Given the first two AC sets entered traffic from the 4th December 1972 and 001 wasn't painted into ST until early the next year, there would've been a few months with only BnT locos hauling them. It's a fascinating period marked by new air-conditioned stock coupled with significant service improvements in the beginning of the decade, a new livery, then a series of worsening cuts in its middle, and finished off with some improvements again to the train service and new powerful 071 locos as well. Similar significant change in Northern Ireland Railways as well with the New Enterprise of 1970, the end of steam, the 80 Class Railcars, rationalisation of the Belfast termini stations and so on. I used to not be that interested in anything pre-Mk3 era but I think the 1970s interests me at least as much if not more than the 1980s now.

I haven't watched this in a while but if memory serves the Executive Brake is seen in this programme from the BBC - Great Railway Journeys: https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p03rdrdk/great-railway-journeys-series-2-4-michael-palin-derry-to-kerry

And the Cù na Mara of the same year, usually a 121 pair in '76. Clearance issues?

Thought I might find something in Jonathan Allen's excellent flickr albums (I can easily get lost for hours in those!) and sure enough I've come up trumps. I couldn't find any BnT with AC stock in 1977 but here's a BnT pair on the 0830 "Supertrain" to Cork at Hueston station in 1976: (Photo credit to Jonathan Allen) He notes this was booked for a pair of 121s in the working timetable, but 174 is subbing for the other 121. Somehow I've always liked BnT locos on supertrain stock I think the contrast is more interesting and I like the livery anyway!

Plenty of photos of ARs, B121, B141, B181 Black 'n' Tan locos on Mk2 AC stock and mixed pairs (one BnT, one ST) as well. There is a picture in the O'Dea collection of a double BnT 141/181 pair on a Cork Road Mk2d set in early 1973 before the large sets were shortened (from EGV+8 to EGV+6) and the number of links increased (from 5 links with large sets plus the Tralee link (only EGV+4) introduced in January 1973 to 8 links from April 1973 plus the Enterprise from May). There were definitely some 141/181s in BnT until after the 071s entered service, probably as late as 1978 at least. And I'm probably going into too much detail again(!), so to summarise - yes, BnT livery locos worked Mk2d AC stock from entry to service until at least 1977 if not slightly later.

Much cheaper than manned crossing gates and full semaphore signalling. Though the GB system has full train protection something lacking outside the DART corridor afaik.

No problem, I spent long enough researching the Mk2D fleet so I should know plenty about them by now! If you ever need an individual vehicle number checked I have a master list I compiled which I can refer to.

The only vehicles which never changed internal layout were the Standards 5201-5236. The Superstandards (5101-5106) were covered to 56 or 62 seat Standards between 1985 and 1987, though 5106 remained Superstandard until the late 1990s for the Enterprise, it being converted to Standard in about 1998/9 (I can get the exact year if needed). The Composites (5151-5159) were very variable. 5 were converted very early in May/April 1973 to 54-seat Standards (5153-5156 and 5158). The remainder remained as Composites until 1988 though were declassified in the early/mid-1980s. Only 3 were actually internally composites by 1988 but in that year it was decided to reinstate Superstandard on Sligo line trains and so one was converted back (not one of the remaining post-1973 ones but one converted to Standard in that year). The Sligo line lost its by then First Class accommodation in about 2000/2001 but two composites survived as such internally until 2004 (5152 and 5156), 5156 was still such in May 2005. For the Kitchen Standards the only major change was removing 4 seats for wheelchair space in the 1990s. So yes, all the vehicles you've quoted would be identical internally unless as they are all the 52xx series Standards seating 64.