hexagon789

You know, I actually thought they were quite similar to British loco-hauled Mk3A Restaurant First Modular vehicles, but there are actually a number of subtle differences in the window arrangements on both sides having now done a comparison. Definitely completely different to High Speed Train buffet cars, most of those have only three seating bays and a different kitchen/buffet counter layout. But as I said before the beauty of it is you simply need three base designs for the InterCity fleet - Standard, Diner and EGV. All the other types of seating car differ only in branding and internal layout the actual bodyshell of First/Composite/Standard being identical unlike the Mk2D fleet where each of those is quite distinct from each other. On livery, I think it's familiarity. Certainly I came to know of the Irish Mk3s in later Tippex livery well before Supertrain. I prefer Supertrain but given much of the fleet was introduced in Tippex and indeed the entire fleet was in Tippex for practically 80% of its service life, it would be no surprise if it was more popular. (Ignoring the orange changing shade of course, but I think we can simplify a bit and call both just Tippex, rather than Tippex ex-Supertrain and Tippex new orange or whatever ;) ) The very last Mk2D in Supertrain appears to have been an EGV - no. 5602

Of the nine Composites originally ordered, five were converted to Standards either as introduced or by April 1973. The 1sts began to develop converted to Standards from 1986, only one went into IR/IE for use in the Enterprise. By 1989 there were only 3 composites which actually were such internally but by 1994 one of the originally dowmclassed ones was converted back to composite, giving 4. These were used on the Sligo line which regained Superstandard accommodation either the 1989 timetable, two would be needed for service so the other was likely spare and I've seen a few photos of a Composite in the Enterprise instead of a 1st. The composites as was in 1994 seemed to remain as such into the early 2000s, but by 2004 only two remained so internally and Sligo services were Standard only. 5106 was the last 1st, to start with after the De Dietrichs were introduced it simply had the "I" painted out first of all and was converted to Standard internally a bit later. So, for the IE/IR era all Mk2 sets would be Standard only except for the Sligo and Belfast rakes.

The change from ST to Tippex was I believe originally purely the addition of stripes, the colour change & IC logos came later. Black roofs also came later, there's mention of it being trialled and why in one of the IRRS journals. Bear with me and I'll have a look

Is that what made the "orange" look a bit too orangey? I thought the second run was definitely better but still didn't seem quite right and I think that's it - it was too matt a finish not enough of a gloss from a proper paint finish.

Given how quickly they went I think a third run of a different lot of coach numbers would be popular. Perhaps they could do two EGVs, like they did two Diners in one of the Supertrain releases given the EGVs are so popular. Personally, I'd like another run in Supertrain, the lack of EGV - the most difficult vehicle to mock-up from other RTR BREL Mk2 designs - made me decide against obtaining any of the remaining stock from IRM.

Looking again at the journals, the new NIR InterCity livery is mentioned as being introduced progressively in the Feb 1989 issue. Turning back to the 111 Class, 113 is mentioned in the Oct 1989 journal as having been 'repainted in the new "InterCity" livery - a deep medium blue with yellow end panels and red buffer beams'. 111 is mentioned as having been repainted in the next issue, February 1990. 112 is mentioned as being in for repair in the June 1990 journal and that it will be repainted in the new scheme. 111 is mentioned in Feb 1992 has having modifications to permit it to supply ETH (HEP), something I was never aware of - thought only 201s had HEP capability from new or otherwise. June 1994 mentions 113 had yaw dampers fitted in 1993 and 112 is to be similarly treated. June 1995, 111 gains its yaw dampers. February 1999 records the introduction of 4 digit numbering on NIR by the addition of "80" or "8" to the beginning of numbers. There are no further mentions of livery changes nor any significant changes to the 111 fleet bar overhauls etc going up to October 2003. Hopefully some of that information prices useful.

I had a look through the Journals. No. 101 (Oct 1986) mentions 1518 converted to Snack Car seating 44 No. 116 (Oct 1991) mentions 1509 converted to Snack Car Vehicles 1520 and 1508 are not mentioned nor is any conversion back to Standards. As an aside, while looking through the Journals, the Cravens stock is mentioned as getting tippex stripes in the Feb 1989 issue, so the earliest would appear to have been done in presumably December 1988/January 1989.

That's something I've never come across before, I always assumed no Irish Mk3s had integral taillights, perhaps a trial?

I agree but I think it's that initial familiarity with the other one which indears it to me.

As I recall 1518 and 1520 were done in 1986 for Rosslare; 1508 and 1509 were converted in about 1990/1 so would only have carried tippex. The ITG 1989 lists the Cravens buffets as 1518 and 1520 still, but the 1994 has them both as Standards and 1508 and 1509 as buffets, so it seems only two existed at any one time. Bit like the Cravens Superstandards, 5 numbers were used but no more than 4 existed concurrently and only 2 existed for longer than 4 years in one go. Welcome to the wonderfully complex and fascinating world of Irish coaching stock!

If its the livery of the leading brake coach you're referring to, I always associate it with the 80 Class but I often forget that of course the Mk2s got the scheme as well. Looks great regardless, one of the more photogenic liveries in my opinion.

Intriguing because I'm positive I had a much earlier date than 2003 and definitely far fewer coaches, anyway I'll see what I do have in my coaching stock notes Not unheard in Scotland either, with the various micro-buffet conversions (pretty much akin to a snack car with one seating bay and the adjacent toilet repurposed for a buffet counter. Very few saw proper use as buffets, trains being switched to a trolley service not long after many conversions entered traffic, the trolley being loaded in the brake van instead of the micro-buffet.

Seems like a good call to me, given the "8" was added mid-1990s for Translink's computer system. I could always try the journals year-by-year to see if they contain any mention of changes to NIR 111 liveries etc

Give me a bit jhb and I'll turn up an instance of a snack car as part of a two Cravens+GSV, it's somewhere in my notes of such things. Definitely being used only for seats though, I think it was a Ballina branch shuttle so no snacks, just a bone-shaking ride!

It's an intriguing one, because to me even allowing for livery contrast, 112 and 113 look clearly orange in their early years but 111 looks deep, dark red then later orange unless it really is just fading.

At least there's only one design, even ignoring the various permutations since privitisation I think there were about 7 different types of Mk3 catering vehicle in service together under British Rail and probably about 11 designs overall. Though many differences relate purely to internal layout or catering equipment so wouldn't be externally visible. The Irish ones only seem to have had one major alteration during their life - the removal of one seat to provide a wheelchair space and then there was the one diner which had 31 instead of 30 seats for a period according to the ITG books, but it's nothing like having TRUK, TRSB, TRUB, RUB, TRFB, RFB, RSM, RFM, TRFK, TRLK, TRFM and more recently TSB and TGFB types (Probably some more I've forgotten but you guys have it easy honestly!)

Thanks for the link, and interesting photo. Personally though 112's panel still looks orange and nothing like that of 111 on the front of the Doyle/Hirsch book. The Hunslets seemed to get the orange colour and keep it.

There's no need for that (Well maybe not yet at least!) I'm not sure about the Irish hobby scene but I remember about 10 years ago the most commonly modelled era in GB model railways was steam 1950s-1960s. Now it's moved to the 1970s/80s, perhaps a similar thing with Irish Railways given the Black & Tan models are very popular or at least seems like that to me. As much as people like myself may set high store by accuracy in terms of preferring to run prototypical sets, if the quality is there then perhaps that will indeed not put as many people of running them, there is a tipping point in that respect I feel. Which is another fair point, there's modelling something which simply "looks right" or gives a flavour and then the huge 30/40-odd foot long monster club layouts that take five lorries and fifty people to shift that tour the exhibition circuits. Interesting that you say they are popular, not that I'm disagreeing, but it's a less prominent popularity it seems Personally - Mk3s are a no-brainer. Exactly like our Mk4s, the Irish ones ain't no Mk3 and I mean that in more than one sense.

I think I am over thinking it. There would be also an advantage over the Mk2Ds in that you only need 3 basic bodyshells against 5 for the 2Ds, so it should make a run cheaper actually because you don't need as many different toolings.

Trouble is - would it sell well enough? True the Mk2Ds went very well, but I can't help feeling the Mk3s are a decidedly more niche market, especially in Supertrain. At least with the Mk2Ds there is a legitimate way to run them as shorter trains suiting more peoples' layouts, with the Mk3s EGV+6 is about the shortest prototypical formation and most sets were EGV+7 or 8. Perhaps I'm over thinking it.

Never mind, my fault. It is there but I overlooked it being in the Northern Ireland album even though the photo was taken in Dublin, link below: Edit: Literally just found it myself, and posted as you did!

I knew it! I knew this would happen! As soon as I typed out my reply above I thought: "I bet there's a photo somewhere that disproves that idea"! So, 111 came out with red, 112 & 113 orange then? With presumably that change to yellow being only post 1984. Given Mr Heywood has an excellent flickr account, I'm slightly surprised I've not cone across the photo unless it's unique to the book.

Wouldn't mind some PRs or Laminates, would suit my approx era but oh if they modelled the Mk3s in Supertrain with proper doors, what a beautiful thing that would be: I can't look at that photo without hoping one day someone in the modelling world does it justice.

Not my era, but what a crisp shot that is. Really shows how good B&T can look when you see photos like that.

Personally I'd love to see either, but the progress on the model to see what it looks like in the flesh would be most welcome. Already kind of smitten with the ltd ed. "A"