which coaches in intercity service Corg-Dublin in June 1990

[MAL]

Hi to all at the forum.

In June 1990 on my honeymoon vacation in Ireland we went from Cork to Dublin via IR intercity. It had not been on a weekend. If I remember right it had been Tue 19.06.1990 but also a day before of after.

To Dublin the coaches had been either MK2d or Mk3? with the wide fixed windows and "intercity" lettering & tippex livery pulled by 075 IR tippex. The train departed around 9am or 10am. I only focused on taking pictures of the 075 (beeing a GM fan by the interest in US railroads). I only happened to picture an A in the background pulling fertilizers.

The train back to Cork in the evening (around 8.30pm or 9 pm) had been pulled by a Baby GM doubleheader. The coaches were older style (5 panel windows as with the craven coaches, defect toilets, rough riding comfort). I cannot remember if these had "intercity" logo on their sides (more NO than YES). I also think these had only one or none white stripes separating black and orange (not really sure). I couldn't take a picture as the light had been too low at that time (Kodak 100 asa).

 

Could anyone of you help to find out which coaches were in service at that time?

 

Thanks in advance.

Edited December 9, 2022 by MAL
amended one word (poor writing before) and film type

[Flying Snail]

Hi MAL, and welcome aboard!

Dublin - Cork would be considered the premier route in terms of allocation of rolling stock, so my bet would be on Mk 3s for your trip to Dublin. Can you remember anything about the interior of the carriages? If they were bench type seating and wood veneer then they were Mk 2s (at least in standard class anyhow), but individual seats with a cream/blue interior would be Mk 3s. The Mk 3s had automatic doors also if that jogs your memory.

As for your trip back down to Cork they could very well have been Cravens. Park Royals were still around in 1990, but I don't think they would have still been on the Dublin - Cork route in 1990 and I don't think that the Mk 2 air-brakes had arrived by then (someone more knowledgeable than me can confirm)

Edited December 9, 2022 by Flying Snail

[MAL]

Hi Flying Snail

Thanks for the welcome (I know I did not introduce myself and jumped right in).

Usually I am very well prepared about the rails around my holiday locations. At least when visiting for the second time. But with the honeymoon I had no idea that Ireland had rails anyway. I had been there for the second time but the first visit was only to county Clare from Shannon with the left hand driving adventure beeing more prominent in regard to trafic and transportation than anything else.

Regarding interior - puh - I'll talk to my wife later. Maybe she has any idea about the doors. In any case we had booked standard class. The seating had been comfortable. We had a desk. My memory is 60% bench and 40% seat. My memory of colors is 50% cream and 50% wood veneer. Which color had a bench seat of a Mk2d? Which kind of fabric had it been? Maybe these hints will help to step forward in my memories. I have to investigate my few slides of that day if I can see the "intercity" lettering on the side of the coaches. Maybe it helps to see "IR intercity" or just "intercity". For sure the doors had no logo on it.

My memory of the return trip was that they had the train replaced or such. Something about a deviation from schedule is somewhere deep in my mind. I am not sure. The department might have been delayed - something like 9pm instead of 8:30.

The MM Cravens always had been somehow familiar to me. I think with your information above I can decide to remember the train as with Cravens. Not only because I have 5 of them in my collection. This is a good decision. I now need only some Mk2 or 3 intercity - coaches to complete my IR coaches collection.

Edited December 9, 2022 by MAL

[Flying Snail]

16 minutes ago, MAL said:

I think with your information above I can decide to remember the train as with Cravens. Not only because I have 5 of them in my collection. This is a good decision.

Thats a most excellent reason for your decision 

As a child, I was extremely disappointed the first time I came across a Mark 3 in the 80s when I saw that they hadn't got the old-style seats with the padded arm rests at the end and the leatherette headrests that I had being used to on my trips to Dublin in the Mark 2s 

[MAL]

Padded armrests is a good point - I try to get the interior image I have in my memory.

Which kind of armrest were in Mk3 coaches? Did the seats have any?

Edited December 9, 2022 by MAL
dropped the armrest question because I confused armrests with headrest.

[Flying Snail]

11 minutes ago, MAL said:

Padded armrests is a good point - I try to get the interior image I have in my memory.

Is there an assignment to classes for padded or leatherette armrests?

They would have been standard class.

Here's a picture from 2006 on a Mark 2d interior .. apart from the logo its pretty much the same as 1990 

Edited December 9, 2022 by Flying Snail

[MAL]

Now it became 20% Mk2 and 80% Mk3. Now I need to find an interior image of a Mk3 for comparison.

[Flying Snail]

There you go https://www.flickr.com/photos/cianginty/2733391242

[MAL]

Quick search (don't ask why I didn't do this earlier) brought up a 2006 Mk3 interior.

The cream walls and bright appearence makes the Mk3 more likely.

Which 00 models do we have of these Mk3 in tippex?

[Flying Snail]

There's some old Lima ones that are repaints of British Rail models i.e. they have slam doors instead of automatic. However Murphy Models have announced that they'll be producing Irish Mark 3s - so not here yet but on the way!

... oh and Sliver Fox also do Mark 3s, but again repaints of British outline

Edited December 9, 2022 by Flying Snail
edited to add Sliver Fox

[MAL]

Even that I cannot remember the checkerd blue/orange fabric of the seats I am now pretty sure it had been Mk3. It had been a sunny day and I was astonished about the modern appearence of the interior. What I expected was delivered by the return trip. Hopefully I can spot the undercarriage difference of the coaches on my few slides. Have to dig them out tomorrow and check. But thinking of them I am sure all this detail was hidden by the platforms as I took the pictures quick'n'dirty in Cork in the few minutes left to departure.

I checked Murphy but did not find the Mk3 mentioned. Just the Mk2d in my requested four track IR livery to come next.

Edited December 9, 2022 by MAL
typo

[Flying Snail]

 Murphy Models is a small operation and the website isn't updated very often, but you'll find more details here.

Edited December 9, 2022 by Flying Snail

[MAL]

Yes. MM is a "not so perfect" site. But I really prefer the energy is put ito the products instead of a perfect site.

The one and only fear I have is to miss the important information and all I see then is "sold out".

I'm not on facebook or another (a)social network to keep my brain clean - accepting to miss sometimes something.

But with a good forum it is quite easy to "survife".

Now I am fine with saving some bucks for now and not running behind the Mk2d but hoping that the IR livery will come faster than with the Mk2d coaches.

[MAL]

Hah! I alway clicked immediately to the "in the works" or "future plans" page and did never scroll MM frontpage down to the Mk3 info.

F*cked up myself

[Rob]

Yes, you can get reasonably close versions of the lrish Mark 3 as @Flying Snail said- the doors being different is the main obvious difference and the windows on the doors need to be amended (as below) but the rest is more or less the same.

Certainly, the 'two foot' rule will work perfectly.

Chris Dyer is another option you could try for lrish Mark 3's- the best coach EVER in lreland

[Flying Snail]

3 hours ago, MAL said:

The one and only fear I have is to miss the important information and all I see then is "sold out".

I'm not on facebook or another (a)social network to keep my brain clean - accepting to miss sometimes something.

But with a good forum it is quite easy to "survife".

Keep an eye on this forum and you can't go wrong - any Irish models will be discussed here 

[MAL]

15 hours ago, Flying Snail said:

Keep an eye on this forum and you can't go wrong

That's why I signed in here

This short conversation brought me forward - more than thinking by my self in the years before.

[BSGSV]

From the sounds of the above, unless you were on the 05:20 Cork-Heuston (which does not seem likely for someone on honeymoon), then Cork to Dublin should have been Mk3's.

The Dublin-Cork train at 20:40 or so, should have had the Mk.2's which came up from Cork at 05:20 (and went to Galway and back during the middle of the day). It does sound like something was wrong if you had Cravens, which would be the bet for a backup, and the only carriages with the windows you describe allowed down the Dublin to Cork mainline in 1990. 

 

[MAL]

Regarding late train back to Cork I am now 99% sure that these were Craven Coaches.

I realized the Craven Windows have 4 upper segments :

The MK2b/c (versus MK2d) have 3 upper segments:

My train had 4 upper windows. I remember the 2 inner sliding windows to open them.

 

So I think for my collection this train is done! More realistic than I thought before:

Edited December 12, 2022 by MAL
amended my train picture

[MAL]

By BSGSV's reply I understood now that the MK3 were on intercity service Cork-Dublin(Heuston) in 1990 @ around 10:xx leaving. This matches to my memories as I tend to be sure I rode on a MK3 (bright interior).

The Cravens had been backup in common.

Unfortunately BSGSV wrote the late train would have been with MK2 but not if b/c or d.

Were the MK2c/d not assigned or released for this intercity service?

 

Any further information is real fun to me.

Anyway thanks to all the suppor I get here!

Edited December 12, 2022 by MAL
changed meaning of the lines to be correct. Wrote some nonsense before.

[Flying Snail]

15 hours ago, MAL said:

Any further information is real fun to me.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coaching_stock_of_Ireland

The Wikipedia page above is a really good starting point if you haven't seen it already.

In 1990 the Mark 3 and the Mark 2D where the primary coaching stock for the daily scheduled intercity services. The Mark 2Ds would have been used extensively on the Galway routes, so I expect the Mark 2s that BSGSV was referring to were the 2Ds (but no doubt he'll confirm). As the Mark 2Ds were the only Mark 2s in service from 1972 until the arrival of the Mark 2B/Cs in the early 90s (and even then there were far more of the Mark 2Ds), the Mark 2Ds were often referred to simply as "the Mark 2s" - I recall railway men in the 1990s referring to the Mark 2B/Cs as  the "Mark 2 airbrakes" to distinguish them from the 2Ds.

You'll find an overview of the Mark 2B/C history (and a link to purchase) on the IRM shop here. However, given what you've said about the windows above and what BSGSV confirmed about back-ups its the Cravens for your second journey. In addition to being back-up the Cravens also ran on specials and they also ran some time-tabled services too - just not the daily services (e.g in the mid-90s when I frequented Heuston, there was a Friday lunchtime service to Tralee that was made up of Cravens).

1990s is a great period to model - in my opinion the best liveries, best variety in locos, best coaching stock (I went onto become a big fan of the Mark 3s once the young me got over the shock of those new-fangled seats ), and a decent freight operation too!

Edited December 13, 2022 by Flying Snail

[MAL]

Could it be that the late train with Craven Coaches replacing the scheduled train ran without a generator van?

If the generator van is a must to run the Cravens by night I have to search for a generator van for my train in my collection.

[murphaph]

Cravens in 1990 needed the generator van for lighting. When they were originally introduced they had their own dynamos and batteries to provide light, with heat coming from the steam generator, either a steam loco or a steam generating van if hauled by a diesel. Later the Cravens were converted to "train line" with power routed through the train from a central source, the generating steam van. Even the shortest 1 coach branch line Craven train would have had a GSV in tow in 1990.

[BSGSV]

On 12/12/2022 at 7:50 PM, MAL said:

By BSGSV's reply I understood now that the MK3 were on intercity service Cork-Dublin(Heuston) in 1990 @ around 10:xx leaving. This matches to my memories as I tend to be sure I rode on a MK3 (bright interior).

The Cravens had been backup in common.

Unfortunately BSGSV wrote the late train would have been with MK2 but not if b/c or d.

Were the MK2c/d not assigned or released for this intercity service?

 

Any further information is real fun to me.

Anyway thanks to all the suppor I get here!

The Mk.2d was vacuum braked, and the Galway trains had a vacuum braked TPO included for mails.

The other Mk.2 stock was air braked, as well as having windows with ventilators, and wasn't in service in 1990, only appearing later. 

The Up train from Galway might have had problems, and not arrived in time to form the down Cork service, so a scratch set may have been sent instead, formed of whatever was to hand that wouldn't mess up the following day's diagrams.

[MAL]

The brakes were different - Now I see another detail I had not in focus.

THX!

Edited December 14, 2022 by MAL
improved the sentence

[MAL]

7 hours ago, murphaph said:

Cravens in 1990 needed the generator van for lighting. When they were originally introduced they had their own dynamos and batteries to provide light, with heat coming from the steam generator, either a steam loco or a steam generating van if hauled by a diesel. Later the Cravens were converted to "train line" with power routed through the train from a central source, the generating steam van. Even the shortest 1 coach branch line Craven train would have had a GSV in tow in 1990.

Thanks. Which 00 scale GSV could be recommended to fit to my 1990ies craven replacement train? Should appear not too deviating from the Murphies IE livery and detailling.

[murphaph]

10 minutes ago, MAL said:

Thanks. Which 00 scale GSV could be recommended to fit to my 1990ies craven replacement train? Should appear not too deviating from the Murphies IE livery and detailling.

There are (currently) no "highly detailed" RTR models of an equivalent standard to the Murphy Cravens available but Silverfox Models do RTR models that may be acceptable:

http://silverfoxmodels.co.uk/ir-ie-generating-steam-van-ex-br-mk1-bsk/

http://silverfoxmodels.co.uk/ir-ie-generating-steam-van-ex-br-mk1-bck/

http://silverfoxmodels.co.uk/ir-ie-generating-steam-van-dutch/

The alternatives are to build one yourself or wait until Murphy or (perhaps more likely) IRM releases one of the above.

[Niles]

One point on the BR generator vans, over time they got so weather-worn and battered that I wouldn't worry if it doesn't perfectly match the Cravens. Some of them ended up quite patchwork when you looked close. 

[jhb171achill]

25 minutes ago, Niles said:

One point on the BR generator vans, over time they got so weather-worn and battered that I wouldn't worry if it doesn't perfectly match the Cravens. Some of them ended up quite patchwork when you looked close. 

I must say I like the SF BR genny in RPSI maroon.........

[jhb171achill]

31 minutes ago, Niles said:

One point on the BR generator vans, over time they got so weather-worn and battered that I wouldn't worry if it doesn't perfectly match the Cravens. Some of them ended up quite patchwork when you looked close. 

Indeed. Even worse in the days of the 4 and 6 wheeled tin vans - whether in silver, green or black'n'tan livery they always seemed to be FILTHY whereas passenger-carryong stock was kept remarkably clean.

[MAL]

15 hours ago, murphaph said:

There are (currently) no "highly detailed" RTR models of an equivalent standard to the Murphy Cravens available but Silverfox Models do RTR models that may be acceptable:

http://silverfoxmodels.co.uk/ir-ie-generating-steam-van-ex-br-mk1-bsk/

http://silverfoxmodels.co.uk/ir-ie-generating-steam-van-ex-br-mk1-bck/

http://silverfoxmodels.co.uk/ir-ie-generating-steam-van-dutch/

The alternatives are to build one yourself or wait until Murphy or (perhaps more likely) IRM releases one of the above.

Because I have toooooo much projects or kits for my JNR collection and still some plans (and already material) for US diesel kitbashing I have to keep my hand from any DIY items for CIE.

I just want to have the 1990 memories in 1/76 plus some trains I saw on films an my investigation about CIE/IR (Fertilizer I saw in Cork, Guinness (I like to enjoy), old time freight with a gray 121 and a brake van).

I'll only intent to do some new lettering by transfers of my 4 wheel wagons (flying snail livery but always the same roadnumber) and maybe some weathering.

 

Therefore I'l probably wait until IRM will offer something or decide for a RTR Silverfox van and do some heavy weathering

New question: What is the difference of BCK and BSK? Why is the third called dutch?

 

[murphaph]

BCK and BSK refer to the original British Rail donor coaches that were converted by BREL to GSVs for CIE. A BCK was a Brake Composite Corridor coach, so roughly half the vehicle had the functions of a brake van (caboose) and the rest was a mixture of 1st and 2nd class (that's the composite bit) and it was a corridor coach in the passenger compartment, so corridor with individual compartments, rather than open seating. A BSK was almost the same except all second class, no first class compartments. The exterior of the GSVs looked slightly different, depending on which donor type was used but they were functionally identical.

The Dutch refers to the design of the wagon which was from Werkspoor in the Netherlands, with the vans being built under licence by CIE in Dundalk. The slab sides give the continental European heritage of these things away immediately. The bogies are Werkspoor types, unique on Irish rail. They were only used with these vans.

Edited December 15, 2022 by murphaph

[Flying Snail]

3 hours ago, MAL said:

I just want to have the 1990 memories in 1/76 plus some trains I saw on films an my investigation about CIE/IR (Fertilizer I saw in Cork, Guinness (I like to enjoy), old time freight with a gray 121 and a brake van).

Since you've mentioned old time freight: A great introduction to the history (charm, and sheer quirkiness) of Irish Railways are the photos that @Irishswissernie publishes daily on his thread on this forum. He also has some flickr albums here covering from the 1930s on. Have a browse there - especially through the 50s and 60s albums - and you'll be inspired (and hooked: there'll be no going back)!

Edited December 15, 2022 by Flying Snail

[MAL]

This is a fine hint! Thanks. I have to be careful not to extend my CIR/IR interest beyond the 1990 memories plus some nice extras. The old time freight shall be an exemption as well as the 3 green RPSI coaches I never saw in reality.

[MAL]

Just an update. I am still in search of my slides of the train trip in 1990 to share them here after scanning. Seems I have stored then too good.