Backwoods miniatures TT gauge county donegal joint railways Committee loco

[BomberCountyModels]

Hi folks, I had this model come my way the other day, not a irish modeller myself, but I trade in kit built items, a friend gave me some information on it as listed above, just wanted some more information if possible as I will be listing for sale.  Thanks in advance

[Horsetan]

This is a OOn3 (not actually TT gauge, even though it uses 12mm gauge track) model of the CDR's Nasmyth-Wilson Class 5 2-6-4T no: 6 Columbkille. The real thing still exists inside the Foyle Museum in Derry.

Built from the long unavailable Backwoods kit, there's a bit of damage /distortion to the central buffer at the front - should be level, not pointing upwards. Rivetted smokebox is correct for no.6.

Does it run?

[BomberCountyModels]

Thanks for that info, very kind of you, it runs beautifully, been built very well

[Horsetan]

The underside photo suggests it's been fitted with the "Porter's Cap" gearbox which was supplied as part of the kit and which is broadly similar to today's "High Level" gearbox kits. (I did wonder if "Porter's Cap" and "High Level" were related to each other.....)

[BomberCountyModels]

I'll have a closer look at it tomorrow and see if it's fitted with a portescap motor, your knowledge us invaluable,  thank you

[Horsetan]

10 minutes ago, BomberCountyModels said:

I'll have a closer look at it tomorrow and see if it's fitted with a portescap motor...

No, no, not Portescap, but "Porter's Cap" - a play on a name for what was a much cheaper, multi-stage worm and spur gearbox, as opposed to the RG4 with its bevel-and-spur reversible drive.

[BomberCountyModels]

I'm glad my mate put me onto this forum, thank you once again, although I get a lot of kit built, irish items don't come up very often so my knowledge is lacking

[Horsetan]

11 hours ago, BomberCountyModels said:

I'm glad my mate put me onto this forum, thank you once again, although I get a lot of kit built, irish items don't come up very often so my knowledge is lacking

The model would started life like this. Note the separate instruction sheet for the Porter's Cap 80:1 gearbox. 

[Andy Cundick]

The Porters cap motor was supplied with the later batches as the early ones had a more basic gearbox it doesn't have the original wheels as they were originally 2mm though the centre axle is 2mm to accommodate the 2mm final drive.I remember having a chat with Pete about the 5's apparently  he produced 125 kits in all,I wondere how many are built and running?,i've got four operational with two to build i've seen quoted that only about 10% of kits are actually built. Andy.

[BomberCountyModels]

7 minutes ago, Andy Cundick said:

The Porters cap motor was supplied with the later batches as the early ones had a more basic gearbox it doesn't have the original wheels as they were originally 2mm though the centre axle is 2mm to accommodate the 2mm final drive.I remember having a chat with Pete about the 5's apparently  he produced 125 kits in all,I wondere how many are built and running?,i've got four operational with two to build i've seen quoted that only about 10% of kits are actually built. Andy.

Thank you for your reply Andy, am I right in believing that these kits may be making a return under a new name in the near future

[commerlad]

@BomberCountyModels The kits are due to return, They are now under the ownership of Nevil Kent (NDrive)

From your screen name I guess you are in Lincolnshire. (Welcome to the forum by the way.)

I'm on the Nott's and Derbyshire boarder ( Near Worksop but do get about ) myself and have quite a few CDR models  (along with other Irish stuff and Isle of Man ).

If that one is for sale I would be interested.

Edited June 7, 2023 by commerlad

[Horsetan]

40 minutes ago, BomberCountyModels said:

Thank you for your reply Andy, am I right in believing that these kits may be making a return under a new name in the near future

The range was taken over by N-Drive about five years ago, possibly longer than that. Based on rate of progress, it will be another 5-10 years at least before we see anything like the full line of kits available again.

That's not forgetting the OO9 (non-Irish) range - extensive in itself- is supposedly to be resurrected as well.

Long wait.

[BomberCountyModels]

1 minute ago, Horsetan said:

The range was taken over by N-Drive about five years ago, possibly longer than that. Based on rate of progress, it will be another 5-10 years at least before we see anything like the full line of kits available again.

That's not forgetting the OO9 (non-Irish) range - extensive in itself- is supposedly to be resurrected as well.

Long wait.

That's frustrating, I desperately want the standard gauge industrial garratt in the 00 range but I don't think that part if the range has even been sold

[Horsetan]

54 minutes ago, Andy Cundick said:

The Porters cap motor was supplied with the later batches as the early ones had a more basic gearbox it doesn't have the original wheels as they were originally 2mm though the centre axle is 2mm to accommodate the 2mm final drive.

Mine was purchased from the Backwoods stand at Warley 2000. Was only 80 quid all-in back then. I even took it to Donegal to photograph it in the cab of Drumboe

[BomberCountyModels]

8 minutes ago, commerlad said:

@BomberCountyModels The kits are due to return, They are now under the ownership of Nevil Kent (NDrive)

From your screen name I guess you are in Lincolnshire. (Welcome to the forum by the way.)

I'm on the Nott's and Derbyshire boarder ( Near Worksop but do get about ) myself and have quite a few CDR models  (along with other Irish stuff and Isle of Man ).

If that one is for sale I would be interested.

Hi chap, yes I'm in Lincolnshire, and yes it will be for sale shortly once I've had some more information on it and its value from some friends who know far more than me. Worksop not far away

Edited June 7, 2023 by BomberCountyModels

[Horsetan]

1 minute ago, BomberCountyModels said:

That's frustrating, I desperately want the standard gauge industrial garratt in the 00 range but I don't think that part if the range has even been sold

The Industrial Garratt probably won't be seen again, except on eBay if you're lucky. Likewise the Doxford Crane Tank kit, which was produced in 1:87 due to a mistake, instead of 1:76.

[Andy Cundick]

The Donegal coaches,and the two C&L brakes are avaliable as far as i know,but of a sore subject the Donegal coaches building my th one when i finally sorted out what looked wrong about them,they're too narrow,Pete used the internal width rather than the external making them 6 inches narrower hence the body doesn't overhang the chassis.Andy

[BomberCountyModels]

4 hours ago, Horsetan said:

The Industrial Garratt probably won't be seen again, except on eBay if you're lucky. Likewise the Doxford Crane Tank kit, which was produced in 1:87 due to a mistake, instead of 1:76.

Funny you should mention that crane tank, I picked one up last week along with some lovely impetus kits

[Colin R]

22 hours ago, Horsetan said:

The underside photo suggests it's been fitted with the "Porter's Cap" gearbox which was supplied as part of the kit and which is broadly similar to today's "High Level" gearbox kits. (I did wonder if "Porter's Cap" and "High Level" were related to each other.....)

Yes is the answer to that the guy who designed the Porter's Cap made them mainly for the Backwood kits to start with  the partnership was wound up and he then decided to go out on his own and basically they evolved into the High level gear box we have to day.

 

Colin  

[Colin R]

The last CDR class 5 kit unbuilt went for very silly money £2,000 I think it was two bidders on e bay. I stopped after it had got to £200.00 pounds but those two silly Bu**ers kept putting bids of £50 pounds on after each other until it ended.

On average, as built I would suggest about £200. to start with, if it runs. If it is a non runner, then I would suggest you start at about £100.00 since they are a pain to take apart and to replace the motor and gearbox once they are built.

These older kits do far better if they are not built and still in the green box, built ones for some reason don't always go for the expected value put on them by the seller. I have just updated this post since I have asked a retired professional model maker and he think he changed about £350.00 to build and paint one of these a few years ago so I would guess that if you charged say £10.00 per hour for a weeks work today that would be a mimimum of £400.00 and for painting add another £100.00 plus more if they are a reconzied professional and you would be getting close to £750.00 But who has that sort of money this day and age, I don't.

The hold up with these kits is that Nev has not so far been able to source replacement wheels since the original supplier is no longer in production.

If you can't wait then I suggets you have a look at Worsley works etches, yes you will need to provide your own wheels, gear box and motor plus a whole load of white metal or 3D print fittings, I can't recall who it is, but I think at one point someone suggested that they could provide all the casting as 3D prints, but I have not heard any more on that one.

In order to complete the later CDR loco roster I just need 3 more class 5's, 1 more class 4 and 1 class 5A.      

Edited June 7, 2023 by Colin R
up date

[Horsetan]

15 hours ago, Colin R said:

.... Nev has not so far been able to source replacement wheels since the original supplier is no longer in production.....      

The driving wheels supplied in the Class 5 kit appeared to be 16mm Romford / Jackson on extended plain-ended axles, nowadays Markits. I found them a bit too coarse for my liking, and replaced them with some plain 4' diameter Sharmans.

The pony and carrying wheels were plastic-centred (or at least the ones in my kit were) and I thought they looked like Kean Maygib. Being spoked, they're wrong anyway, as the real things had disc wheels with holes drilled around the perimeter. Modern equivalents could probably be Markits, but they wouldn't be cheap nowadays. The other alternative might be wheels supplied by the 3mm Society or maybe 3SMR, as they work to 12mm gauge anyway.

3mm Society list - see pages 18 and 19 for wheels

3SMR wheels price list

 

Edited June 8, 2023 by Horsetan

[WRENNEIRE]

Go to the bottom of this link (page 21) and also the next page
Some Backwood kits shown here
 

 

[Mayner]

The Backwoods Miniatures website is still accessible although the owner Pete McParlin suspended trading in December 2016 

http://www.backwoodsminiatures.com/00n3kits.htm

The Irish OOn3 models were introduced in the early-mid 1990s. Sales of the Irish models appear to have been disappointing (apparently only selling one CVR Loco) Pete later focused on OO9 and American outline models, later commissioning rtr Brass /n30 locos from the Far-East.

Edited June 8, 2023 by Mayner

[Horsetan]

11 hours ago, Colin R said:

....I have asked a retired professional model maker and he think he changed about £350.00 to build and paint one of these a few years ago so I would guess that if you charged say £10.00 per hour for a weeks work today that would be a mimimum of £400.00 and for painting add another £100.00 plus more if they are a reconzied professional and you would be getting close to £750.00 .....

Tom Mallard reputedly charges in the region of thousands for his builds....

[commerlad]

Although not brisk all the production runs of the Irish 00n3 done by Pete McParlin did sell out (Albeit some quicker than others)

Current state of sales by Nevil Kent is as follows.

model railways - Backwoods 00n3 Irish range (n-driveproductions.com)

As stated lack of suitable wheels is the reason for loco's not yet appearing, (And first having to sort what all the moulds and parts therefrom when made applied to which kit as Pete had not labelled them,)

Though I have been lead to believe Pheonix and the Railcars are due soon.

[Colin R]

21 hours ago, Andy Cundick said:

The Donegal coaches,and the two C&L brakes are avaliable as far as i know,but of a sore subject the Donegal coaches building my th one when i finally sorted out what looked wrong about them,they're too narrow,Pete used the internal width rather than the external making them 6 inches narrower hence the body doesn't overhang the chassis.Andy

Hi Andy did you carry out any modification to the coach kits?

 

[Irishswissernie]

15 hours ago, Mayner said:

The Irish OOn3 models were introduced in the early-mid 1990s.

I'm thinking it might have been the late 1980's but with this time gap now plus my advancing years I'm probably mistaken. I moved from Blyth to here in the 'Centre of Britain' er Haltwhistle in June 1993 and I'm pretty sure I purchased a fair number of the Irish kits, Donegal 2-6-4t, Swilly 4-8-0, C&L 4-4-0t several coaches and about 15 wagons whilst at Blyth. The loco kits were missing various motors, gears and wheels and these were going to be forwarded in due course. Everything was thus packed away pending their receipt which unfortunately never happened. Several years later I exchanged the lot with Geof at Contikits probably for some Bemo Swiss H0m  models.

[Andy Cundick]

2 hours ago, Colin R said:

Hi Andy did you carry out any modification to the coach kits?

 

Short answer no as there are eight of them in three different liveries,however the other two will be widened. Andy

[Horsetan]

On 7/6/2023 at 7:22 PM, BomberCountyModels said:

Funny you should mention that crane tank, I picked one up last week along with some lovely impetus kits

It's a very nice kit, but should be labelled 3.5mm scale / HO !

[BomberCountyModels]

Just now, Horsetan said:

It's a very nice kit, but should be labelled 3.5mm scale / HO !

Yes so im told, apparently the garratt is also

[Mayner]

6 hours ago, Irishswissernie said:

I'm thinking it might have been the late 1980's but with this time gap now plus my advancing years I'm probably mistaken. I moved from Blyth to here in the 'Centre of Britain' er Haltwhistle in June 1993 and I'm pretty sure I purchased a fair number of the Irish kits, Donegal 2-6-4t, Swilly 4-8-0, C&L 4-4-0t several coaches and about 15 wagons whilst at Blyth. The loco kits were missing various motors, gears and wheels and these were going to be forwarded in due course. Everything was thus packed away pending their receipt which unfortunately never happened. Several years later I exchanged the lot with Geof at Contikits probably for some Bemo Swiss H0m  models.

The Donegal Articulated railcars appeared during the early 90s, I assembled a model of Railcar 14 over Christmas in Ireland in 93, I was living in Scotland at the time and Glasgow Airport security inspected the un-built kit while flying out to Dublin and the completed model upon my return to Scotland.

I moved back to the Home Counties 12 months later and picked up the newly introduced C&L 4-4-0T, brake vans and wagons at the Greenwich Narrow Expo, I bought another 4-4-0T and several more wagons before returning to Ireland in late 95 and spent most of my evenings in February-March 96 assembling them in Carrick on Shannon. I never had problems with back up support with Backwoods, Pete supplied a replacement layshaft for the railcar power bogie, the original was too short.

The most annoying thing about the kits was that the wagon/coach wheels were supplied loose and had to be fitted to their axles, the 2 stage drive to the railcar power bogies were fiddly to assemble but fundamentally sound, the gear-box in the C&L 4-4-0T used modified Graham Farish N gauge gears and ended up replacing the gearboxes in both my locos with Branchlines Slim-line Gearboxes to achieve reliable slow speed running, I also managed to wreck the Farish worm on one of the locos.

 

 

[airfixfan]

Black dome not red!

[Andy Cundick]

Surely you mean red dome,Andy

[airfixfan]

Correct

[gwilliams3]

Must get this finished...nearly there but looking for a ready to run 0-6-0 chassis to use.

Nearest I've found is the Hornby Pecket B2 but even that doesn't quite fit

I was going to put the 3D model on Shapeways for printing but they went bust in July

Edited September 11 by gwilliams3