Ardree Quay

[derek]

5 minutes ago, LNERW1 said:

I had to run out and film it on my (not very good) phone, in about -1 or -2 degrees, at 9pm, in November, in my jim jams. I could see my own breath better than the garden room! And it's too dark now to get anything better. I'll be back with a picture in the morning, hopefully.

How 'bout you just tell us?

[DJ Dangerous]

37 minutes ago, JasonB said:

Not quite sure what's going on here. Is this a remake of The Blair Witch Project? 

It’s a garden hedge. He knows how much you love your nocturnal hedges.

 

7 minutes ago, LNERW1 said:

I had to run out and film it on my (not very good) phone, in about -1 or -2 degrees, at 9pm, in November, in my jim jams. I could see my own breath better than the garden room! And it's too dark now to get anything better. I'll be back with a picture in the morning, hopefully.

Is it a layout room?

[LNERW1]

19 minutes ago, derek said:

How 'bout you just tell us?

I did, 'tis a garden room

16 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

Is it a layout room?

Half needs to be usable as a spare room, so I'm using the brilliant FREMO system and making it modular. Most of the time it will be a 100% railway room, but I can take down one corner in just a few minutes and it can be used as a guest room. It'll house a folded double track loop, made up of two C-shaped or L-shaped halves, connected by a helix at either end. The helixes are not portable, as the plan is to make it possible to exhibit the layout with the two halves connected on the flat. There'll also be a few junction modules (custom made with FREMO dimensions and endplates on the main line ends so as to be compatible with the rest of the layout) one to connect Ardree in to the main layout. However, there'll be one or two other small terminus layouts connected as well- but that's a story for another day!

[DJ Dangerous]

6 minutes ago, LNERW1 said:

I did, 'tis a garden room

Half needs to be usable as a spare room, so I'm using the brilliant FREMO system and making it modular. Most of the time it will be a 100% railway room, but I can take down one corner in just a few minutes and it can be used as a guest room. It'll house a folded double track loop, made up of two C-shaped or L-shaped halves, connected by a helix at either end. The helixes are not portable, as the plan is to make it possible to exhibit the layout with the two halves connected on the flat. There'll also be a few junction modules (custom made with FREMO dimensions and endplates on the main line ends so as to be compatible with the rest of the layout) one to connect Ardree in to the main layout. However, there'll be one or two other small terminus layouts connected as well- but that's a story for another day!

That sounds excellent!

What size is the room?

How much do the FREMO boards cost?

[LNERW1]

11 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

That sounds excellent!

What size is the room?

How much do the FREMO boards cost?

I believe the room is around 4mx8m and i have not gotten through to the baseboard guy yet (dont worry its not the MRB guy)

[DJ Dangerous]

3 minutes ago, LNERW1 said:

I believe the room is around 4mx8m and i have not gotten through to the baseboard guy yet (dont worry its not the MRB guy)

That’s a whopping area to run trains in!

Glad it’s not @Dave Lindfield, that could get messy.

[Mol_PMB]

Sounds like an amazing space!

Speaking as someone who has started a lot of overambitious layouts and finished few, I would recommend building a module at a time to start with, whilst keeping a grand plan in mind that they will eventually fit into. Don’t try and build 20 baseboards at the start. 

[DJ Dangerous]

11 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

Sounds like an amazing space!

Speaking as someone who has started a lot of overambitious layouts and finished few, I would recommend building a module at a time to start with, whilst keeping a grand plan in mind that they will eventually fit into. Don’t try and build 20 baseboards at the start. 

Running a single loop of track on temporary boards made from free offcuts while building up the FREMO boards over time would stave off the frustration to some extent.

He’s going to be putting a grand or two into the “proper” boards, I’d say, plus the same again on the track. That kind of money may be difficult to get together at that age.

Hopefully today we’ll see some daylight pictures of the space.

[LNERW1]

 

1 hour ago, DJ Dangerous said:

Running a single loop of track on temporary boards made from free offcuts while building up the FREMO boards over time would stave off the frustration to some extent.

He’s going to be putting a grand or two into the “proper” boards, I’d say, plus the same again on the track. That kind of money may be difficult to get together at that age.

Hopefully today we’ll see some daylight pictures of the space.

The garden room was a significant investment, so the baseboards on top of that won’t be a huge cost comparatively. The room also needs to be available as a spare room from the start since we’re hosting family soon, so a semi permanent solution won’t work.

As for running out of enthusiasm or getting distracted, I’m not particularly concerned about that. I’m going to be putting a lot of very careful thought into the track plan so it doesn’t get boring, and as far as prototype goes, I don’t really have one in mind- not even a particular country, so changing interests shouldnt be an issue. Most of it will be open main line anyway so anything Irish and most things British will look fine on it. And keep in mind, it’s FREMO. I can swap modules out easily and quickly if I want to put in a new one.

I also need the space for filming something- before you say anything DJ, it’s NOT amateur porn, I have a long term film project I want to release around 2029 or 2030, but I don’t entirely trust myself to follow through and it’s not super relevant here so I’m saying nothing about it.

Anyway, here’s the garden room:

 

 

[DJ Dangerous]

That’s an amazing amount of space for running trains!!!

And for filming whatever amateur projects you like!

The FREMO modules are about €40-ish each, I think.

@Jack_Dunboyne had negotiated a 10% discount for forum members at one stage, but I’m not sure if that still stands.

How many modules will you need? About 25?

[Horsetan]

2 hours ago, LNERW1 said:

...And keep in mind, it’s FREMO. I can swap modules out easily and quickly if I want to put in a new one.

 

The great pity is that FREMO hasn't really caught on in the UK. The tradition and culture of self-contained layouts is much too ingrained, together with the fact that the popular scales frequently have two or three different track gauges (2mm has two, 3mm has 3, and 4mm has 3) representing the same thing, so that banjaxes the idea of everyone sticking to a common standard.

FREMO's massive advantage is that your models actually get to work over an actual mileage on a proper network through varying scenery and not just round in an oval or short distance to and from a fiddle yard.

[Horsetan]

1 hour ago, Horsetan said:

....FREMO's massive advantage is that your models actually get to work over an actual mileage on a proper network through varying scenery and not just round in an oval or short distance to and from a fiddle yard.

The Germans have got FREMO down to a fine art, and there's loads of YouTube videos showing some impressive network meetings.

There's at least one group that recreates routes with inclines during the Royal Prussian Railway era, so the trains actually have to be assisted by banking engines at the rear.

Imagine doing something similar with a triple-header struggling up the bank out of Cork.

[LNERW1]

If anyone is interested in an Irish modular, I'm using the FREMO Hauptbahn standard- PM me! I personally think it's a great solution to the difficulty of creating clubs in a country with a sparse enthusiast population. Apart from the Polish layout FREMO Ireland have, I believe the SDMRC also has the beginnings of a GWR Hauptbahn-standard layout, however I believe theirs has code 75 track whereas I plan on using code 100. @Jack_Dunboyne can correct me but I believe FREMO Ireland also use Peco code 100 on their layout.

[Horsetan]

53 minutes ago, LNERW1 said:

...., I believe the SDMRC also has the beginnings of a GWR Hauptbahn-standard layout, however I believe theirs has code 75 track whereas I plan on using code 100. @Jack_Dunboyne can correct me but I believe FREMO Ireland also use Peco code 100 on their layout.

Are people still using massive flanges on their stock, hence Code 100?

[jhb171achill]

27 minutes ago, Horsetan said:

Are people still using massive flanges on their stock, hence Code 100?

I’ve code 75, which means three old coaches I have can’t run till I get better wheels for them….

[LNERW1]

2 hours ago, Horsetan said:

Are people still using massive flanges on their stock, hence Code 100?

A combination of price, more track geometry generally being available, and the need for FREMO to be super compatible, and allow for as much stock as possible. The first I think is pretty important, code 75 being a little more expensive is all well and good on a 4ft long layout, but if it's a 2km (yes, real kilometres) long FREMO layout that adds up to a huge extra expenditure. Code 100 looks fine anyway, and in my opinion actually looks better for modern image. A lot of the rail at Stradbally, where I volunteer, came from CIÉ (not new though) in the early 70s and are 74lb. Most rail on the IÉ network now is around 104lb. Taking into account width, it's a pretty close increase, but that's assuming code 75 is a good representation of 74lb rail or around that. But suffice to say code 100 is actually fine and a better solution in this case. But I see why people go for code 75 when they can.

[DJ Dangerous]

16 hours ago, LNERW1 said:

If anyone is interested in an Irish modular, I'm using the FREMO Hauptbahn standard- PM me! I personally think it's a great solution to the difficulty of creating clubs in a country with a sparse enthusiast population. Apart from the Polish layout FREMO Ireland have, I believe the SDMRC also has the beginnings of a GWR Hauptbahn-standard layout, however I believe theirs has code 75 track whereas I plan on using code 100. @Jack_Dunboyne can correct me but I believe FREMO Ireland also use Peco code 100 on their layout.

How many different FREMO standards are there for OO / HO? And what are the differences between them?

[LNERW1]

51 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

How many different FREMO standards are there for OO / HO? And what are the differences between them?

There are countless, all for different purposes (rural, industrial, main line, finescale), and it should be noted that the two scales are separate as far as FREMO are concerned- the organisation is very concerned with accuracy, the main attraction is that you can run trains for realistic distances, build stations to scale etc so mixing scales would be pretty counterproductive to that. I’d direct you to the official website for any standard you may wish to use: https://www.fremo-net.eu/en/modulsysteme (it will probably be set to German, the language selector is at the top left of the site). As I’ve said, I’m using the HO scale Hauptbahn double-track standard, for maximum compatibility, but please note if anyone’s interested in building compatible modules, it will be functionally 00 gauge, with Peco code 100 track and, until I can hard wire all my old stock to DCC, will probably have to be DC 12V, but if someone wants a DCC compatible layout I can try that and just use my modern locos with chips (although I would also have to fit them first )

Edited 1 hour ago by LNERW1

[DJ Dangerous]

8 minutes ago, LNERW1 said:

There are countless, all for different purposes (rural, industrial, main line, finescale), and it should be noted that the two scales are separate as far as FREMO are concerned- the organisation is very concerned with accuracy, the main attraction is that you can run trains for realistic distances, build stations to scale etc so mixing scales would be pretty counterproductive to that. I’d direct you to the official website for any standard you may wish to use: https://www.fremo-net.eu/en/modulsysteme (it will probably be set to German, the language selector is at the top left of the site). As I’ve said, I’m using the HO scale Hauptbahn double-track standard, for maximum compatibility, but please note if anyone’s interested in building compatible modules, it will be functionally 00 gauge, with Peco code 100 track and, until I can hard wire all my old stock to DCC, will probably have to be DC 12V, but if someone wants a DCC compatible layout I can try that and just use my modern locos with chips (although I would also have to fit them first )

So for example, a rural module and mainline module would not be compatible?

I’m confused by the rail height, too. I thought that Code 100 was 30% taller than the prototype, hence people aim for Code 75? Or have Irish rail been installing taller rail, so Code 75 is now too short for a modern image layout?

[Mol_PMB]

15 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

...I’m confused by the rail height, too. I thought that Code 100 was 30% taller than the prototype, hence people aim for Code 75? Or have Irish rail been installing taller rail, so Code 75 is now too short for a modern image layout?

Digressing a bit, there are lots of different rail profiles. Whilst rail sections have tended to get heavier over the years there are still many different sizes made for different applications. There's a good overview table here:

https://rails.arcelormittal.com/profiles/transport-rails/

And profile cross-sections for each, like this one:

https://rails.arcelormittal.com/profiles/transport-rails/european-standards/rail-56e1/

On the full-size railway, rails are classified by weight per unit length, kg/m or lbs/yard. For many years the standard flat-bottom rail used in GB was 113 lb/yard, which equates to 56 kg/m (the 56E1 profile linked above).

In general, heavier rails are taller, but this is not always the case.

• The 56E1 profile has a nominal height of 159mm, which in model terms would be 2.1mm in OO or 1.8mm in HO.
• The 60E1 profile (modern Network Rail standard) is 172mm high, which in model terms would be 2.3mm in OO or 2.0mm in HO.
• The 39E1 profile (also known as BS80A) is used on some light rail systems and probably more akin to the older flatbottom rail sections used in Ireland. It's 149mm high, which in model terms would be 2.0mm in OO or 1.7mm in HO.
• For bullhead rail, the common 95 lb/yard section is 145mm high, which in model terms would be 1.9mm in OO. https://britishsteel.co.uk/media/savi03us/bs-95rbh.pdf

On model railways, rails are classified by height, in thousandths of an inch.

• Code 100 is 0.100" or 2.5mm high, which is pretty good for representing modern 60E1 rail in OO, but oversize for other applications.
• Code 75 is 0.075" or 1.9mm high, which is more appropriate for older rail profiles and/or HO scale.

But it's all fractions of a millimetre, and not so obvious once the track has been painted. Things like track gauge and sleeper size/spacing are much bigger errors in OO. What makes the Code 100 rail look too big in OO is really that the rest of the track is modelled to HO scale.

 

Anyway. back to Ardree Quay...

 

[DJ Dangerous]

8 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

Digressing a bit, there are lots of different rail profiles. Whilst rail sections have tended to get heavier over the years there are still many different sizes made for different applications. There's a good overview table here:

https://rails.arcelormittal.com/profiles/transport-rails/

And profile cross-sections for each, like this one:

https://rails.arcelormittal.com/profiles/transport-rails/european-standards/rail-56e1/

On the full-size railway, rails are classified by weight per unit length, kg/m or lbs/yard. For many years the standard flat-bottom rail used in GB was 113 lb/yard, which equates to 56 kg/m (the 56E1 profile linked above).

In general, heavier rails are taller, but this is not always the case.

• The 56E1 profile has a nominal height of 159mm, which in model terms would be 2.1mm in OO or 1.8mm in HO.
• The 60E1 profile (modern Network Rail standard) is 172mm high, which in model terms would be 2.3mm in OO or 2.0mm in HO.
• The 39E1 profile (also known as BS80A) is used on some light rail systems and probably more akin to the older flatbottom rail sections used in Ireland. It's 149mm high, which in model terms would be 2.0mm in OO or 1.7mm in HO.
• For bullhead rail, the common 95 lb/yard section is 145mm high, which in model terms would be 1.9mm in OO. https://britishsteel.co.uk/media/savi03us/bs-95rbh.pdf

On model railways, rails are classified by height, in thousandths of an inch.

• Code 100 is 0.100" or 2.5mm high, which is pretty good for representing modern 60E1 rail in OO, but oversize for other applications.
• Code 75 is 0.075" or 1.9mm high, which is more appropriate for older rail profiles and/or HO scale.

But it's all fractions of a millimetre, and not so obvious once the track has been painted. Things like track gauge and sleeper size/spacing are much bigger errors in OO. What makes the Code 100 rail look too big in OO is really that the rest of the track is modelled to HO scale.

 

Anyway. back to Ardree Quay...

 

Very informative, thanks! Have seen those links in the past, but the added context helps. The British Steel list in particular shows how weight doesn’t correlate with height.

So, in summary, Code 100 is suitable for the most modern 60E1 only, and Code 75 is a better representative of rail ftom the 50’s to 2000’s?

Is the current Irish rail profile 60E1?

Talk about life imitating art!

[Mol_PMB]

2 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

So, in summary, Code 100 is suitable for the most modern 60E1 only, and Code 75 is a better representative of rail ftom the 50’s to 2000’s?

Yes, that's correct.

5 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

Is the current Irish rail profile 60E1?

I did try to find out, but a few minutes googling didn't find a definitive answer. I think most of the main lines are presently in 56E1 but I'm not sure what is being used for renewals and new-build now. 

In most places, rail lasts between 25 and 50 years so the network changes slowly.

[DJ Dangerous]

16 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

Yes, that's correct.

I did try to find out, but a few minutes googling didn't find a definitive answer. I think most of the main lines are presently in 56E1 but I'm not sure what is being used for renewals and new-build now. 

In most places, rail lasts between 25 and 50 years so the network changes slowly.

I couldn’t find anything myself after a cursory search…

But DuckDuckGo is my preference over Google!

Think I’ll stick with the Code 75, it’s a better representative of a wider range of era, and just looks so much better.