Irish Railway PW wagon livery in the 1950 to 1960

[Colin R]

Hi guys imagine if you can the late 1950 early 1960's most Irish narrow gauge railways had gone by then, however lets assume for a while and a lets say that the West Clare had lived on for a few more years, so what I am after is would there have been a corporate livery for all PW wagons at this time and what sort of shade of gray would it have been?

Thanks in advance for any help.

Colin Rainsbury

   

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, Colin R said:

Hi guys imagine if you can the late 1950 early 1960's most Irish narrow gauge railways had gone by then, however lets assume for a while and a lets say that the West Clare had lived on for a few more years, so what I am after is would there have been a corporate livery for all PW wagons at this time and what sort of shade of gray would it have been?

Thanks in advance for any help.

Colin Rainsbury

   

Plain wagon grey at that stage. With extremely few exceptions, departmental stock at that time was standard wagon grey. The running number would typically end in “A”, thus 456A or 207A on the side, in standard wagon-style font.

Chassis same colour as wagon; if it was a crew coach, same plain grey (green with red ends later on), but with dark grey / black roof.

Flying Snails sometimes painted, usually stencilled, in white. After 1963, roundels which could variously be all-white or tan surround.

Many or most wagons had “PWD” stencilled on sides.

Steam cranes either wagon grey or black.

[Mol_PMB]

I found this thread while searching to see if there was already any information on the PWD red livery (I didn't find anything). I appreciate this might not be directly relevant to your specifically narrow gauge question but it does fit the title of the thread.

Anyway, in 'Irish Railways Today' published in 1967, the paragraph about Ballast Wagons reads: "The 1949 batch of 50 wagons have conventional steel frames, while the timber-framed wagons are conversions from cattle wagons. They are all finished in the red livery of the Permanent Way Dept."

So, red, not grey. What sort of red? Well now I have joined the IRRS and have access to their photo archive, I know the answer. In the mid 1960s, the PWD painted their wagons bright red, like a loco bufferbeam. And unusually, it was only the body sides and ends that were red, the underframes appear to be dark grey or black. There was a white CIE roundel on the body as well as PWD and the number.

Photos show dated late 1960s and early 1970s that this livery was certainly applied to:

• 2-plank dropsides 24054, 24076, 24078 (all from the steel-framed 1949 batch 24051-24100 as mentioned above)
• 1-plank 6-wheel dropsides 24103 (from the batch 24102 to 24112)
• One of the 24401 series with 2-plank ends but no sides fitted (this batch 24401 to 24450 were converted from cattle wagons as mentioned above)
• 2-plank dropside 24514 (this batch 24451 to 24515 were converted from cattle wagons as mentioned above)

Not all PWD vehicles were painted red, of course. 1971 photos show that ballast plough brake 8452 was all over brown with roundel, while its mate 65M was tatty dark grey with snail, and 8167N was clean pale grey with roundel. The pre-CIE ballast hoppers between them were shades of rust and grey. (By 1975 the old plough brakes were all brown.)

The 24401 and 24451 series wagons were introduced in 1964 and described as red in the book published in 1967, so they were probably painted red at the time of conversion in 1964. 

I wonder how long the red wagons lasted, and whether the livery was applied to any other types of PWD vehicle?

Has anyone modelled a red wagon?

[Colin R]

I am sure someone with more knowledge will correct me, but the old Donegal railway used red wagons and vans to indicate their use with railcars since they were/are very lightweight in construction. That said, I am unsure if they were used on Donegal PW duties.

Colin

[Andy Cundick]

1 hour ago, Colin R said:

I am sure someone with more knowledge will correct me, but the old Donegal railway used red wagons and vans to indicate their use with railcars since they were/are very lightweight in construction. That said, I am unsure if they were used on Donegal PW duties.

Colin

Simple answer no most likely they would have used the dropsides rebuilt from the Pauling contractors rebuilds.Though saying the the original wagon livery for the Donegal was red anyway.Andy.

[jhb171achill]

3 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

I found this thread while searching to see if there was already any information on the PWD red livery (I didn't find anything). I appreciate this might not be directly relevant to your specifically narrow gauge question but it does fit the title of the thread.

Anyway, in 'Irish Railways Today' published in 1967, the paragraph about Ballast Wagons reads: "The 1949 batch of 50 wagons have conventional steel frames, while the timber-framed wagons are conversions from cattle wagons. They are all finished in the red livery of the Permanent Way Dept."

So, red, not grey. What sort of red? Well now I have joined the IRRS and have access to their photo archive, I know the answer. In the mid 1960s, the PWD painted their wagons bright red, like a loco bufferbeam. And unusually, it was only the body sides and ends that were red, the underframes appear to be dark grey or black. There was a white CIE roundel on the body as well as PWD and the number.

Photos show dated late 1960s and early 1970s that this livery was certainly applied to:

• 2-plank dropsides 24054, 24076, 24078 (all from the steel-framed 1949 batch 24051-24100 as mentioned above)
• 1-plank 6-wheel dropsides 24103 (from the batch 24102 to 24112)
• One of the 24401 series with 2-plank ends but no sides fitted (this batch 24401 to 24450 were converted from cattle wagons as mentioned above)
• 2-plank dropside 24514 (this batch 24451 to 24515 were converted from cattle wagons as mentioned above)

Not all PWD vehicles were painted red, of course. 1971 photos show that ballast plough brake 8452 was all over brown with roundel, while its mate 65M was tatty dark grey with snail, and 8167N was clean pale grey with roundel. The pre-CIE ballast hoppers between them were shades of rust and grey. (By 1975 the old plough brakes were all brown.)

The 24401 and 24451 series wagons were introduced in 1964 and described as red in the book published in 1967, so they were probably painted red at the time of conversion in 1964. 

I wonder how long the red wagons lasted, and whether the livery was applied to any other types of PWD vehicle?

Has anyone modelled a red wagon?

Interesting.

Plain wagon grey was standard up to about 1970 for PW as well as everything else (except newly-orange bubbles!), and plain wagon brown after that. I saw many, many PW trains myself, and wandered freely in the mid-70s around Port Laoise PW yard, and never saw a single red vehicle. Thus, I can be certain there was never any sort of "official red PW livery" as such. The half-dozen vehicles you mention must have been painted like that for some sort of specific pupose, and it would be interesting to know what that was.

The vehicles you mention which show up in photos in red must have been - a bit like the handful of green H vans in the early 60s, or plain tan tin vans in the 1980s, some sort of effort for one specific use. I'd be interested to see these photos.

What I find interesting is that there are several instances in the past regarding livery deetails here and there which as read, end up being misleading. Two examples that spring to mind relate to the grey GSR / CIE livery, and the green tin vans. A contemporary report about the latter, possibly in the IRN or IRRS Journal (can't remember) suggest that fifty or 100 of the H vans were turned out in green. This is not the case. A handful were, and very short lived indeed. Reason - the livery changed away from green and snails when these were only in production, so the batch would have been finished in grey.

The brown colour used from the late 1980s for all stock (I know this is well out of the period referred to here) had a distinctly more reddish hue than before.

Regarding these red-painted wagons, any pics?

[Mayner]

22 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Interesting.

Plain wagon grey was standard up to about 1970 for PW as well as everything else (except newly-orange bubbles!), and plain wagon brown after that. I saw many, many PW trains myself, and wandered freely in the mid-70s around Port Laoise PW yard, and never saw a single red vehicle. Thus, I can be certain there was never any sort of "official red PW livery" as such. The half-dozen vehicles you mention must have been painted like that for some sort of specific pupose, and it would be interesting to know what that was.

The brown colour used from the late 1980s for all stock (I know this is well out of the period referred to here) had a distinctly more reddish hue than before.

Regarding these red-painted wagons, any pics?

The ballast  wagon MoL is referring to appears as a colour photo in the Wagon Collection of the IRRS Flickr album, its one of the 2415-24566 series Ballast Wagons converted from Cattle Wagons in 1964, the drop sides were red the underframe grey. Strangely there are also photos in the collection of ex-MGWR open wagons and vans (both Irish Standard types) in brown at a time CIE was phasing out/scrapping its remaining pre-amalgamation wagons

There are other colour  photos of PW wagons in red in the IRRS Flickr collection

There is an old Irish saying saying that a person should believe none of what you hear and half of what they see, use a preferably colour photo if you intend to model a particular loco or piece of rolling stock.

[jhb171achill]

50 minutes ago, Mayner said:

 

There are other colour  photos of PW wagons in red in the IRRS Flickr collection

 

Any idea of where - I'd be interested to see these...............

[Mayner]

2 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Any idea of where - I'd be interested to see these...............

Several photos of Ballast Wagons with red bodywork in Wagons by Irish Railway Photographic Archive including a couple with snail logo! the majority of photos taken late 60s including a a 6w dropside ballast under repair and in service.

Wagon album Page 3     

Dropside Ballast Wagon (sides dropped) derelict Mullingar 86 ©Seamus Lattimer ref> SLR_CIE_X_Mullingar_23_Aug_1986 (2) 

Wagon album Page 6   

Dropside Ballast weathered red/brown snail Logo + partially visible wagon with red bodywork ©Thomas A Davitt TAD_GSWR_Castletownroche_3_Sept_1969 (2)

(Dungarvan-Mallow lifting train)

Dropside Ballast 24514 1954 cattle wagon conversion red bodywork grey wooden underframe and ironwork  ©Thomas Wall TMW_CIE_GNR_24514_2128N_Limerick_27_April_1969 (GN Bulk Cement in background)

6W GSWR Ballast Wagon 24103 under repair TMW_GSWR_24103_Limerick_27_April_1969

6W GSWR Ballast Wagon 24103 red bodywork tiny wheel logo! TMW_GSWR_24103_Foynes_04_June_1972

GSWR/GSR/CIE Ballast Wagon 8385 red bodywork stencil snail logo grey underframe marked for scrapping! ©Thomas Wall TMW_GSWR_8385_Wicklow_Murrough_04_May_1968

 

 

 

[Mol_PMB]

7 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Any idea of where - I'd be interested to see these...............

When I’m home from work I can post links to the photos I found. 
Note, they’re only visible to IRRS members so not all forum members will be able to see them. 

[Westcorkrailway]

Perhaps it’s something like this? Was used on lifting trains down the south west and I *think* it’s of CMDR origin 

 

(Ernie’s railway archive)

Edited Monday at 08:06 by Westcorkrailway

[Mol_PMB]

The PW department does seem to have painted some vehicles in a bauxitey red in the 'snail' era, including the van you have identified. In the same lifting train in 1960 there was also a 2-plank dropside in this livery, seen fairly well in these two images:

Here's a closeup of the van. All these from Ernie on Flickr.

In the IRRS archive the photo of 24103 under repair in 1969 shows it partly in this colour (but mostly fresh wood unpainted).

The same wagon was photographed again in 1972 and had clearly been outshopped in bright red with roundel. 

 

 

 

 

[jhb171achill]

5 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

The PW department does seem to have painted some vehicles in a bauxitey red in the 'snail' era, including the van you have identified. In the same lifting train in 1960 there was also a 2-plank dropside in this livery, seen fairly well in these two images:

Here's a closeup of the van. All these from Ernie on Flickr.

In the IRRS archive the photo of 24103 under repair in 1969 shows it partly in this colour (but mostly fresh wood unpainted).

The same wagon was photographed again in 1972 and had clearly been outshopped in bright red with roundel. 

 

 

 

 

Yes, a “bauxitey” colour tended to fade in a somewhat reddish way.

That’s a bauxite brown, badly faded. It was quite unique for the time.
 

WestCork - you mention possible CMDR origin; yes, it’s certainly not unlike that in design, but it plus another of somewhat different design, had GSWR numbers. No letter suffix - an ex-Macroom vehicle would have had “R” after the number. This was numbered 8457. 

Edited Monday at 14:24 by jhb171achill

[Mol_PMB]

Sorry for the delay. I'm home now, with access to my wagon spreadsheet and photo links.

Dropside 24054 in the foreground, may be the bauxitey colour. Then one without sides in the brighter red with black/grey underframe. The third wagon is unpainted, and the last one 24401 is indeterminate colour. Note numbers painted on the ends.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53527762385

Other photos of the same train showing more wagons also show more red wagons among them:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53527509543

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53527331611

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53527509538

Rear left, 24076 in red with black underframe. Right, 24078 in red with grey undreframe. Both appear to be bright red with white roundel, though a little faded:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511462853

Perhaps the best shot of a 4-wheeler is this portrait of 24514 in bright red body and grey underframe, small PWD, white roundel:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510417347

The 6-wheeler 24103 undergoing rebuild, with some parts in worn bauxitey red:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511646909

And in service after completion of the rebuild, in bright red, black underframe, white roundel:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511646919
 

Please note, only IRRS members with access to the IRRS Flickr archive will be able to view these links.

Mol

[Mol_PMB]

This photo from Ernie dated 1978 shows a couple of the PWD 2-plank dropsides, one in unpainted wood and the other which I think is dirty bright red because it has a grey underframe. It could just be bauxite, but the lettering style matches the bright red ones. Inconclusive, but at least this shows the type of wagon that was red.

Here's a closer look at the unpainted one, also on a grey underframe. At least I assume it's unpainted rather that a creamy yellow?

 

[jhb171achill]

Had a good look at all of the above and did a good bit of other poking about. Undoubtedly several clearly show a livery of grey chassis and red - or at any rate very reddish - body. As I mentioned before, despite many visits to the likes of Port laoise and other yards, never once did I see anything that colour, so it has to be have been either a rare thing, a short lived thing, or both.

Thus, I cannot throw any light on it whatsoever!

However, while there is as above very clear evidence of the existence of this scheme, it has to be said that the majority of those photos are worn / faded bauxite rather than red. Paint pigments tended to sometimes assume a slightly more reddish tint when worn and faded - the original paint being the standard brown post-1970.

Most interesting addition to my "livery dadabase"!

[Mol_PMB]

Many thanks for your thoughts and experiences. I suspect this was a fairly rare livery - applied for a short time and only to those wagons that happened to need repainting. It's applied to 2-plank dropside wagons, but when you see whole trains of them there are only a couple of red ones in the mix. I have also found a few more images, though some of these show different views of the same wagons and the livery isn't always clear.

This is faded red with black underframe, it appears to have been 24477 but has been renumbered 360A without a repaint. It's the same type (converted from cattle wagon) and same lettering layout as 24514 we saw previously:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570644103

Just in the corner of the photo, this is the steel underframe type 24051-24100, in red with black underframe. And again in the distance, same train:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511304476

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510410237

This is probably 24076, we saw it in the previous post from a different angle, but the same location:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511469593

This appears to be 1970s all over bauxite:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509338094

This one clearly has different chassis and body colour, but it's not red. Bit of a mystery:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509335364

Finally, although this is also a 2-plank dropside it's a different type of wagon with taller sides and it's in the 1950s snail era. The whole thing (including underframe) is a reddish colour:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570466216

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570823079

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570499236

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511622074

 

Cambrian kit C077 might be a good starting point for a model. It is 17'0" over headstocks (very close) with 9'6" wheelbase (not quite right).

Rapido made one in RTR but it's sold out:

[jhb171achill]

5 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

 

Finally, although this is also a 2-plank dropside it's a different type of wagon with taller sides and it's in the 1950s snail era. The whole thing (including underframe) is a reddish colour:

https://

Cambrian kit C077 might be a good starting point for a model. It is 17'0" over headstocks (very close) with 9'6" wheelbase (not quite right).

Rapido made one in RTR but it's sold out:

On 18/11/2024 at 8:05 AM, Westcorkrailway said:

 

I’m sure I’ve seen a RTR model somewhere of something that would be a reasonable approximation of this type of 2-plank wagon…. not sure what make, though.

Edited yesterday at 12:33 by jhb171achill

[jhb171achill]

On the subject of oddball or one-off wagon liveries, many here will be aware of the fact that on cattle fair days, living vans were send to rural places for extra crews to bunk down in. They could be converted old coaches, but there were a small number of purpose-built ones, especially on the MGWR & GSWR.

Normally standard all-over wagon grey, and one old one I’ve seen pics of still had a faded “G  S” on the side in colour-photography days.

One, at least, though, was bauxite brown from the late 1950s - ie over a decade before brown appeared on goods wagons.

Another variation was the rectangular tank wagons used often for road vehicle or G class fuel in the sixties - grey chassis but black tanks.

[Westcorkrailway]

One of these still survives converted into a living space of sorts down my direction. It was an Ex WLWR coach tha at some stage was rebuilt and as far as I can tell it was painted green….but not the exact kind of CIE green you’d expect and there was no lining to speak of. 
 

Ray good says that coach had gone down to Bantry in the 1950s for cattle fairs 

 

 

Edited yesterday at 13:30 by Westcorkrailway

[jhb171achill]

7 hours ago, Westcorkrailway said:

One of these still survives converted into a living space of sorts down my direction. It was an Ex WLWR coach tha at some stage was rebuilt and as far as I can tell it was painted green….but not the exact kind of CIE green you’d expect and there was no lining to speak of. 
 

Ray good says that coach had gone down to Bantry in the 1950s for cattle fairs 

 

 

I’ve seen pics of that years ago.

At one stage, in departmental (rather than traffic use) it and a number of other coaches used mostly interactive locations, guy a cost of standard bus green, with red ends which rapidly faded to a salmony pink or orange-looking colour. This continued into the late 60s, after the green livery had gone elsewhere - some green engineer’s dept. vehicles like that were green with roundels.

Edited 17 hours ago by jhb171achill

[Mol_PMB]

Like the middle one here (my photo):

 

[Westcorkrailway]

22 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

Like the middle one here (my photo):

 

Yes like that coach, but there was not even a roundel on it, just the coach number (234A, 236A or 238A I can’t remember) 

 

Also this picture has always looked a little strange to me on Ernie’s railway archive….though I suppose it makes sense the gray looks a bit mad though 

[Mol_PMB]

18 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

Yes like that coach, but there was not even a roundel on it, just the coach number (234A, 236A or 238A I can’t remember) 

 

Also this picture has always looked a little strange to me on Ernie’s railway archive….though I suppose it makes sense the gray looks a bit mad though 

I think that's a breakdown train van, that runs with the crane. Presumably they were operated by the loco department which only owned tins of dark grey and red paints? 

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, Mol_PMB said:

Like the middle one here (my photo):

 

Exactly.

That one is (or was!) ex-GSWR No. 1110.

[jhb171achill]

6 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

I think that's a breakdown train van, that runs with the crane. Presumably they were operated by the loco department which only owned tins of dark grey and red paints? 

It is, yes - a former GSWR full brake. This is another quirk - anything in departmental green usually had a red end, but not things in grey.If they were grey they were grey all over, so this is one of thye "Cork Exceptions" which included such oddities as a J15 painted grey but with black firebox (normally grey all over), and several West Cork coaches which had the dark green, and two snails, but no lining.

In livery terms it's amazing what details crop up. Analysis even today of such things throw up ICRs with IE symbols in normal colour, or all black, or all white; and on the modern grey 071 livery, numbers in different positions, with different spacings, and different fonts. Plenty to keep the livery nerds (of which I'm probably the worst) well occupied. In the very late 1980s, while throughout their entire lives Cravens never carried logos of any kind, lo and behold one or two managed to acquire for a while the Irish Rail "set of points" logo - one at each end.

[jhb171achill]

7 hours ago, Westcorkrailway said:

 

 

8 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

Like the middle one here (my photo):

 

Worth commenting on all of those vehicles, set aside in the 80s at mullingar (where they are pictured) with POSSIBLE preservation by the RPSI in mind. The left hand one, as is obvious from the bowed-in ends, is of WLWR origin, built in 1896, I think. It was one of only verey few bogies owned by that company which was a bit like the BCDR in favouring a diet almost completely of six-wheelers. The ex-WLWR Director's Saloon was also there, out of the picture to the left. Built the same time, they were GSWR Nos. 934 & 935. The green one is GSWR 1110 as staqted, followed by a container, and finally MGWR six-wheeler 13M.

Nothing survives of any of them, bar the chasis of 13M, which is currently used at Downpatrick to house the body of the sole remaining GNR six-wheeler that awaits restoration there. The chassis of 1110 survived for a while, possibly at Downpatrick, but I'm not sure what became of it.  Sadly the two WLWR vehicles have gone to their rest, partially thanks to the numbskull vandals of the good town of Mullingar...

As an aside, the solitary WLWR vehicle left is No. 900, the former first class family saloon (not "royal saloon" as Belturbet calls it), thankfully saved and in store in the old loco shed at Belturbet. This yoke sat for years and years at Claremorris as a staff bothy. Many of us who have amassed a certain amount of birthdays will recall it as such. It would be great to see it restored.

[Mol_PMB]

Many thanks! Here’s a slightly closer view of the 6-wheeler:

And some tenders:

I would probably have taken more photos but I was distracted by the arrival of this:

Which incidentally is a bit of a livery variation itself. For most of the supertrain livery era, loco numbers were low down on the bodyside behind the cab, presumably because the tablet catcher was on the cabside. There was a short period in the mid 1980s, after the tablet catchers were removed but before the white stripes were added to the livery. when some locos were repainted in supertrain with cabside numbers. This wasn’t common on the 001s, but there were a fair number of 141s with cabside numbers in supertrain livery. 

When the white stripe livery was introduced, the cabside became the standard place for the numbers on all classes. 

[jhb171achill]

12 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

Many thanks! Here’s a slightly closer view of the 6-wheeler:

And some tenders:

I would probably have taken more photos but I was distracted by the arrival of this:

Which incidentally is a bit of a livery variation itself. For most of the supertrain livery era, loco numbers were low down on the bodyside behind the cab, presumably because the tablet catcher was on the cabside. There was a short period in the mid 1980s, after the tablet catchers were removed but before the white stripes were added to the livery. when some locos were repainted in supertrain with cabside numbers. This wasn’t common on the 001s, but there were a fair number of 141s with cabside numbers in supertrain livery. 

When the white stripe livery was introduced, the cabside became the standard place for the numbers on all classes. 

The position of them could vary on the 121s too…