how much would it take to fix up the tralee to blenervile

[irishrailways52]

I have been down in Belleville many times and seen the very sorry state of the railway. of corse it would take a lot to get steam working but I am curious on how much it would take to fix up the carriages and run it with diesel. also would there be an interest in it being run with diesel.

[Wexford70]

People are willing to travel to see steam, less so diesel. 

Assuming the metal track and chairs are ok, second hand sleepers are available from Irish Rail and are about 10 euro each if bought in bulk. 

You will likely need new ballast. 

A suitable diesel engine would be available from Bord na Mona as they are selling off their railway stock. 

Biggest cost will be labour and  insurance. 

You'd need a good band of volunteer labour to survive. Running it with a fully paid workforce as the Council tried is doomed to failure. 

[Hawkerhellfire]

The railway is at such an advanced state of decay it would be better to try and salvage 5T and the Ruston rather than waste resources on anything else. 

 

The line requires complete reballasting and resleepering which in materials now would reach conservately a quarter of a million to put halfway right, and that's with 20 plus active and enthusiastic volunteers working hard. Double the cost if you do it commercially. 

 

On top of that the window for acquiring a BNM loco suitable for hauling the carriages(which are in a questionable condition) is rapidly closing. 

Giving council disinterest/ineptitude it'll never work out. If it was in England or Wales yeah it's salvagable(indeed it would have never have gotten to that state) but here, nah. 

[jhb171achill]

5 hours ago, Hawkerhellfire said:

Giving council disinterest/ineptitude it'll never work out. If it was in England or Wales yeah it's salvagable(indeed it would have never have gotten to that state) but here, nah. 

This, indeed, is the main issue. It will only ever work if it's in the hands of a skilled and populous voluntary group. Nobody in Tralee has the slightest interest in it, least of all the local authority - very much in common with most local authorities across Ireland north and south. If it's something to do with the GAA (or 12th July in the north!), the latest American president's family roots or farming, they're all over it, but forget about transport / industrial heritage.

Best option is to salvage the rail for Dromod, and the locomotive, and scrap the rest.

[airfixfan]

Foyle Valley Railway in Derry unused since July 2000 is another example of where a temporary closure by Council.experts ensured that the former railway remains today subject to various expensive feasibility schemes that are usually mad!

[Wexford70]

If information on 5T is required, the company that has possession of 5T is subject to the Freedom of Information Act 2014 as the local council had significant input into its running. This was confirmed by the Office of the Information Commissioner about 2 years ago. Sadly most the directors of the company seem to be no longer active according to the CRO. 

Any information requests for records relating to 5T, the track, etc. can be submitted, free of charge to FOI@kerrycoco.ie.

Note: you cannot ask questions per se, but you can ask for any records related to any public funds received, documents relating to ownership, reports on the state of the track, business cases created and discussions in council chamber (example attached). These are all public records.

If submitting, do take time to read the guidance at How do I make an FOI request? | Freedom of Information

The council MUST answer you, even to say they have no records matching your request. If they fail to do so within 4 weeks you can appeal to the OIC automatically as it is considered a 'deemed refusal'. You will have to pay a fee but this is reimbursed if the OIC upholds your concern.  The OIC are very helpful and well used to dealing with reluctant councils 

 

Happy to share what information I have if anyone needs it. 

 

Blennerville Steam Railway- references at Tralee MD Meeting.pdf

Shareholding information.pdf

Edited May 29 by Wexford70

[Railwayrover]

I might be stupid and reading this wrong but did that not just say that the company made 434 thousand in 2020 despite not even running? I’m fairly sure I read before that an individual in the council who had a stake in the company kept stopping it from being reopened. 

[Wexford70]

4 hours ago, Railwayrover said:

I might be stupid and reading this wrong but did that not just say that the company made 434 thousand in 2020 despite not even running? I’m fairly sure I read before that an individual in the council who had a stake in the company kept stopping it from being reopened. 

Don't think so. I think it means when the company had share capital at one stage amount to about 260k. With one share awarded for each euro put in. But I may be mistaken. Only thing left now is the paper value of the loco and the scrap value of the tracks and carriages. 

[minister_for_hardship]

This hoary old chestnut again! 

I would say at this stage, with coaches out in all weathers for about 3 decades now, they would be beyond saving.

Every couple of months it's brought up in online chatter along the lines of "whatever happened to.." or "wouldn't it be lovely if..."

As Jhb has pointed out, the locals couldn't care less if the roof blew off the shed and 5T rotted into the ground where it stands. It's a sure fire bet the subject of the railway's future is one issue NOT exercising any of the local election candidates doorstepping this past while!

Council minutes referring to the railway is much idle chatter followed up with the inevitable Greenway.

Edited May 29 by minister_for_hardship

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, minister_for_hardship said:

This hoary old chestnut again! 

I would say at this stage, with coaches out in all weathers for about 3 decades now, they would be beyond saving.

Every couple of months it's brought up in online chatter along the lines of "whatever happened to.." or "wouldn't it be lovely if..."

As Jhb has pointed out, the locals couldn't care less if the roof blew off the shed and 5T rotted into the ground where it stands. It's a sure fire bet the subject of the railway's future is one issue NOT exercising any of the local election candidates doorstepping this past while!

Council minutes referring to the railway is much idle chatter followed up with the inevitable Greenway.

Indeed. Dromod is the only hope - for the loco - scrap for the rest.

[Brack]

I think that centralising stuff in one location gives you a better chance - not competing for grants, volunteers, visitors etc and should have economies of scale with the overheads.

A shame that things are quite fragmented with the 3' in the North too.

[jhb171achill]

25 minutes ago, Brack said:

I think that centralising stuff in one location gives you a better chance - not competing for grants, volunteers, visitors etc and should have economies of scale with the overheads.

A shame that things are quite fragmented with the 3' in the North too.

Correct on all counts!!

[airfixfan]

Fintown struggles on running again from the start of June. Foyle Valley in Derry is another lost cause thanks to local councillors who have not got a clue about railways. Fintown is community run and has nothing to do with Donegal CC

[minister_for_hardship]

9 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Indeed. Dromod is the only hope - for the loco - scrap for the rest.

Dromod, Cultra, anywhere but Tralee!

Suddenly that loco would become a priceless artifact if you suggested taking it away from Tralee! Classic dog in the manger stuff.

Edited May 30 by minister_for_hardship

[Railwayrover]

Some photos of the carriages from John Hughes on Facebook 

[jhb171achill]

5 hours ago, minister_for_hardship said:

 

Suddenly that loco would become a priceless artifact if you suggested taking it away from Tralee! Classic dog in the manger stuff.

Spot on!!!!!!

[Horsetan]

15 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Indeed. Dromod is the only hope - for the loco - scrap for the rest.

I keep saying that it's a wonder the scrap metal thieves hadn't moved in and cut stuff up years ago.

[Railwayrover]

8 minutes ago, Horsetan said:

I keep saying that it's a wonder the scrap metal thieves hadn't moved in and cut stuff up years ago.

They still apparently stole many brass components off the locomotive, and there is more evidence of mean people getting access to the shed. 

Edited May 30 by Railwayrover

[Hawkerhellfire]

5Ts boiler as I've read has a crack in the throatplate. Giving this combined with the advanced age of the boiler it's probably well passed saving. 

 

Any restoration to running of the railway has to factor in a new boiler, and then you're throwing an extra quarter of a million onto the bill. You won't get much change from a million to restore that line. 

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, Hawkerhellfire said:

5Ts boiler as I've read has a crack in the throatplate. Giving this combined with the advanced age of the boiler it's probably well passed saving. 

 

Any restoration to running of the railway has to factor in a new boiler, and then you're throwing an extra quarter of a million onto the bill. You won't get much change from a million to restore that line. 

Indeed. Probably its best hope after indirect vandalisation through neglect by Tralee / Kerry Council, or whatever half-wits were in charge of it, is static display somewhere. Tralee certainly doesn't deserve it. If it was up to me, I'd put it on display on Easter Island or in North Korea before I'd let them have it.

[Horsetan]

30 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Indeed. Probably its best hope after indirect vandalisation through neglect by Tralee / Kerry Council, or whatever half-wits were in charge of it, is static display somewhere. Tralee certainly doesn't deserve it. If it was up to me, I'd put it on display on Easter Island or in North Korea before I'd let them have it.

Better off scrapping it. At least you'd get some money back.

[airfixfan]

From memory when restored 5T got a new boiler from the Severn Valley?

[minister_for_hardship]

18 hours ago, Railwayrover said:

They still apparently stole many brass components off the locomotive, and there is more evidence of mean people getting access to the shed. 

If that is the case, it's really saddening and a further indictment of the uselessness of Tralee Town Council/KCC and local apathy.

[Wexford70]

The 1995 Heritage Act has a grey area regarding what is deemed a heritage object. The Heritage Council's voluntary Accredited Museum scheme will not award museum status to an organization that only has mobile heritage objects. If 5T was put on a plinth by the existing or any new owner they could access Heritage Funds but not if operating.

What would be useful would be if the community were able to encourage the Heritage Minister to update the Heritage Act 1995 with a Statutory Instrument, just one line that states clearly the term heritage objects is intended to include static and mobile industrial heritage objects including, but not limited to, boats, planes, railway carriages, wagons and locomotives which are preserved and operated. 

He could sign that himself and then Finntown, Cavan and Leitrim and the current or any new owner of 5T could immediately request and access existing funding through Heritage Ireland. 

Board members of the Waterford & Suir Valley Railway raised this in a meeting with the Minister, and they were the second group to meet him on that issue that day! With elections looming, probably not the top of the Department's agenda. 

 

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1995/act/4/enacted/en/print.html

Edited May 31 by Wexford70

[Hawkerhellfire]

2 hours ago, airfixfan said:

From memory when restored 5T got a new boiler from the Severn Valley?

No, it's the original(or at least an Inchicore built one). You may be thinking of 90 as she had a new boiler built by the Severn Valley. 

[Mayner]

My understanding is that 5T is on permanent loan to Tralee and Blennerville and not a company or a Council asset. 

The railway was financed under a Business Expansion Scheme (income tax relief) for setting up Tourist Facilities.

The original investors would have received their tax relief over 30 years ago with no incentive to pour good money after bad to re-open a railway that's incapable of operating at a profit. 

All and all a bad experience for the owners of 5T, Tralee Council and possibly the investors in the BES. After obtaining their income tax relief 30 years ago their shareholdings are basically valueless, the Council or a Volunteer Group is unlikely to make a cash offer for the railway!

All and all a bad experience of the owners (who have no access or control of the loco), the Investors whose shareholding has essentially become valueless and Tralee Council and its ratepayers who will eventually be lumbered with the cost of cleaning up the mess.

Perhaps time to establish a 5T supporters group with the intention of raising €200,000 to secure the future of the locomotive and open dialogue with the owners, the T&B and the Council. Private groups fundraising to save and restore locos common in most countries but almost unknown in Ireland

 

 

[jhb171achill]

So do we now know for a fact that Tralee Council are the actual outright legal owners of the locomotive?

[Wexford70]

On 31/5/2024 at 1:12 PM, jhb171achill said:

So do we now know for a fact that Tralee Council are the actual outright legal owners of the locomotive?

I have asked previously under FOI for any records confirming that. None were available. They certainly have a claim arising from long term possession but the original payments for its return to Ireland were not, as far as I can see, paid out by the Council but rather a supporters group. If further details of that original payment were available a counter claim to ownership might be made which would be supported by the evidencable neglect in my opinion.

 

On 31/5/2024 at 12:39 PM, Mayner said:

Perhaps time to establish a 5T supporters group with the intention of raising €200,000 to secure the future of the locomotive and open dialogue with the owners, the T&B and the Council. Private groups fundraising to save and restore locos common in most countries but almost unknown in Ireland

In the first instance a smaller amount might be sufficient to secure the loco's ownership and once secured, it could be removed to a safer location to halt  further  deterioration.

Often these groups are set up as charitable trusts and these can avail of any tax reliefs that are going and such structures would likely have easier access to government aid such as the rural development grants.

Edited June 2 by Wexford70

[minister_for_hardship]

Taken through the gap under the door recently.

Going by the amount of light flooding in, either the clear lights have been replaced (unlikely) or they've blown off. The site is an overgrown mess.

Edited June 11 by minister_for_hardship

[irishrailways52]

3 hours ago, minister_for_hardship said:

Taken through the gap under the door recently.

Going by the amount of light flooding in, either the clear lights have been replaced (unlikely) or they've blown off. The site is an overgrown mess.

really sad to see it decay to this. if I'm down that way i might try and seal off the carage so vandles cant get in

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, irishrailways52 said:

really sad to see it decay to this. if I'm down that way i might try and seal off the carage so vandles cant get in

I think the carriages are a long lost cause - I’d be more worried about the fate of the engine!

[Wexford70]

On 31/5/2024 at 12:39 PM, Mayner said:

My understanding is that 5T is on permanent loan to Tralee and Blennerville and not a company or a Council asset. 

@Mayner from whom was it on loan?

[Wexford70]

FOI Reponses from Kerry Co Co: May 2021

In your reply you state the locomotive is the responsibility of a private company.

Can you confirm that the ownership of the locomotive does not currently sit with Kerry County Council? Correct

When the locomotive was returned to Ireland, was the ownership of the locomotive not transferred to the Council? No

If the council has ever owned the locomotive, when was the ownership relinquished? Not ever owned by Council.

What is the formal relationship between the private company and Kerry County Council in terms of operation in of the heritage line? ?  The Council was part of the broad group of supporters who helped restore the railway as well as a number of other tourism projects. The Council is very anxious that the steam railway, including the locomotive and carriages, is restored and still hopeful that this can be achieved.  This company worked closely with the Blennerville Windmill Company, Kerry County Museum and Aqua Dome Waterworld (a PLC)

If the Council leased the track what was the operating model with this private company for the operation of the line?

 The line can only be used as steam railway and if the railway company goes into liquidation then the property reverts to the council.

[Noel]

It was really wonderful when in operation, It is a great pity, when our children were young we brought them to travel on it a number of times because a live steam locomotive was the main attraction. Don't think we'd have bothered had it been some sort of industrial yard diesel like a BNM or SVR. For the same reason we don't bother with rail tours anymore unless they are steam hauled (ie steamtrainsireland.com). Little interest in a modern diesel/electric loco, nor a DMU rail tour.  I've no idea of the merits or feasibility of restoration, but I'd certainly visit Tralee again to bring our grand children on it.

[jhb171achill]

3 hours ago, Wexford70 said:

FOI Reponses from Kerry Co Co: May 2021

In your reply you state the locomotive is the responsibility of a private company.

Can you confirm that the ownership of the locomotive does not currently sit with Kerry County Council? Correct

When the locomotive was returned to Ireland, was the ownership of the locomotive not transferred to the Council? No

If the council has ever owned the locomotive, when was the ownership relinquished? Not ever owned by Council.

What is the formal relationship between the private company and Kerry County Council in terms of operation in of the heritage line? ?  The Council was part of the broad group of supporters who helped restore the railway as well as a number of other tourism projects. The Council is very anxious that the steam railway, including the locomotive and carriages, is restored and still hopeful that this can be achieved.  This company worked closely with the Blennerville Windmill Company, Kerry County Museum and Aqua Dome Waterworld (a PLC)

If the Council leased the track what was the operating model with this private company for the operation of the line?

 The line can only be used as steam railway and if the railway company goes into liquidation then the property reverts to the council.

Very interesting indeed.

Wonder who the owner of the loco is.