GSWR green

[jhb171achill]

Someone, somewhere, recently asked me about this.

The answer lies in this (Cyril Fry) model, and / or the (correct) livery currently carried by 90 at Downpatrick.

Fry’s model carried one of two lining styles used approx 1880-1902, whereas 90 has the earlier style.

Same green, though.

The pale green seen at the 1996 open day at Inchicore was entirely incorrect for any era, as were the shade on 90 when in Mallow, and on 184 in its last years in CIE use.

It is likely that this isn’t a million miles off what the CBSCR used, though further research on that is necessary.

[minister_for_hardship]

I realise a lot of research went into the Downpatrick rebuild of 90, but the current numberplate appears almost square in comparison to the oblong one carried at Mallow and that presumably carried first day?

[jhb171achill]

23 minutes ago, minister_for_hardship said:

I realise a lot of research went into the Downpatrick rebuild of 90, but the current numberplate appears almost square in comparison to the oblong one carried at Mallow and that presumably carried first day?

That’s the one inaccuracy, unfortunately. The plates were cast out of the last brass buts from scrapped 141s, just as Inchicore’s foundry was closing - but they’re the wrong shape! Livery is correct, though. Number plate background black with green livery, red with GSWR black, and same plain grey as body colour after 1915.

[Mike 84C]

I thought the CBSC green was described as sage green. But what is sage green? As we have discussed before colour is in the eye of the beholder and their memories. I'm sure many would disagree with how I think BR engines were painted!!

[minister_for_hardship]

"Sage green" is defined as a grey-green. Could be any shade, so not a very helpful description.

[Westcorkrailway]

53 minutes ago, Mike 84C said:

I thought the CBSC green was described as sage green. But what is sage green? As we have discussed before colour is in the eye of the beholder and their memories. I'm sure many would disagree with how I think BR engines were painted!!

I’ve heard Olive Green, military green, dark green from 3 good sources…..I’ve packed up trying to actually find a decent colour match for now until somone magically finds a CBSC coach with a bit of paint left on it on the farm. And even that would be a very poor source! 

[jhb171achill]

Based on sage, the herb, this would not be an accurate description. Olive green is distinct, more yellowy-tinted than anything greyish. Thus it would the same base colour as shoiwn on the GSWR model, no more, no less. The only unknown is what shade it was. What little info has survived tends to suggest something similar to the GSR, but on coaches too, though Fry's solitary model of a CBSCR vehicle is a bit lighter. Fry was not infallible, though; while livery accuracy is very meticulours indeed overall, there are a few mdoels which are not correct, for example his GNR "S" class 4.4.0 which is the darker railcar blue rather than the well-known GNR loco blue.

[Westcorkrailway]

1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

Based on sage, the herb, this would not be an accurate description. Olive green is distinct, more yellowy-tinted than anything greyish. Thus it would the same base colour as shoiwn on the GSWR model, no more, no less. The only unknown is what shade it was. What little info has survived tends to suggest something similar to the GSR, but on coaches too, though Fry's solitary model of a CBSCR vehicle is a bit lighter. Fry was not infallible, though; while livery accuracy is very meticulours indeed overall, there are a few mdoels which are not correct, for example his GNR "S" class 4.4.0 which is the darker railcar blue rather than the well-known GNR loco blue.

I’ll have to see that CBSC coach someday….is it on public display? 

[jhb171achill]

Just now, Westcorkrailway said:

I’ll have to see that CBSC coach someday….is it on public display? 

Yes, it is.

 

[Westcorkrailway]

3 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Yes, it is.

 

Then I have missed it twice on two flying visits…must go to specsavers JB

[GSWR 90]

The dark green currently on 90 is a close match to T&R Williamson's RAL 6007 (roughly RGB 44, 50, 36). Not sure about the red or the light green on the lining. The dark green (and the rest of the livery) is based on this contemporary model of a GSWR loco which is at the Science Museum Institute of Mechanical Engineers in London.

6 hours ago, minister_for_hardship said:

I realise a lot of research went into the Downpatrick rebuild of 90, but the current numberplate appears almost square in comparison to the oblong one carried at Mallow and that presumably carried first day?

As above the plates on 90 were designed and made by IÉ out of brass GM keys. They were donated to DCDR during the 2009 Inchicore open day and were fitted to the loco about 2013 I think. The originals were probably stolen/lost while it was at Mallow in the 1980s, although IMO both of them are very much part of the loco's history. Interestingly, IÉ made at least two other plates to the new design – another number 90 and a number 60 (easy to make as it's just 90 with the 9 upside down), which are both in the Wheeltapper Bar at Fitzpatrick's Hotel in New York.

Edited November 10 by GSWR 90

[jhb171achill]

That model shown above is actually where the livery for 90 was copied from. It is in the Institute of Mechanical Engineers offices in London, and was built in the 1870s by Inchicore apprentices.

As for that no. 60 plate, and Wheeltappers, and genuine Irish railwayana as well as fakes.....well, we all know..... less said about that the better!!

[Westcorkrailway]

Those original 90 plates must be out there somewhere. A few GSRPS names spring to mind which might have a lead, but that’s about it 

6 hours ago, minister_for_hardship said:

I realise a lot of research went into the Downpatrick rebuild of 90, but the current numberplate appears almost square in comparison to the oblong one carried at Mallow and that presumably carried first day?

 

[GSWR 90]

6 hours ago, minister_for_hardship said:

I realise a lot of research went into the Downpatrick rebuild of 90, but the current numberplate appears almost square in comparison to the oblong one carried at Mallow and that presumably carried first day?

Also worth mentioning that it wasn't always No 90, when it was owned by the Castleisland & Gortatlea Railway 1875-1879 it was known as C

6 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

Those original 90 plates must be out there somewhere. A few GSRPS names spring to mind which might have a lead, but that’s about it 

 

These sorts of things are always better being enjoyed by the public in a museum (or attached to the actual loco) rather than gathering dust in somebody's attic! 

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, Westcorkrailway said:

Those original 90 plates must be out there somewhere. A few GSRPS names spring to mind which might have a lead, but that’s about it 

 

 

1 hour ago, GSWR 90 said:

Also worth mentioning that it wasn't always No 90, when it was owned by the Castleisland & Gortatlea Railway 1875-1879 it was known as C

These sorts of things are always better being enjoyed by the public in a museum (or attached to the actual loco) rather than gathering dust in somebody's attic! 

Very true. The originals have to kicking about somewhere - but - beware! The ACTUAL (1915) originals were scrapped when it was last repainted in the very late 1950s, after which, in keeping with CIE policy of the day, it got painted numerals. The plates on it in Fermoy and later Mallow were 1960s replicas, albeit authentically cast by CIE - probably, in fact, the last steam numberplates of standard Inchicore design ever cast.

And indeed, as Castleisland Railway "C", it is possible it had no markings at all in its original state. However, having been built at inchicore for the CR, it very probably had the GSWR green livery as shown above from new.

[GSWR 90]

No evidence of No 90 carrying plates in this photo of it in its original condition

[jhb171achill]

The lining suggests the livery above, though no clue as to the coach part - probably varnished wood or maroon of some sort.

[minister_for_hardship]

9 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

 

Very true. The originals have to kicking about somewhere - but - beware! The ACTUAL (1915) originals were scrapped when it was last repainted in the very late 1950s, after which, in keeping with CIE policy of the day, it got painted numerals. The plates on it in Fermoy and later Mallow were 1960s replicas, albeit authentically cast by CIE - probably, in fact, the last steam numberplates of standard Inchicore design ever cast.

And indeed, as Castleisland Railway "C", it is possible it had no markings at all in its original state. However, having been built at inchicore for the CR, it very probably had the GSWR green livery as shown above from new.

The GS&WR ones were long ago melted down, but the ones carried at Fermoy and Mallow may be in an attic perhaps...

[jhb171achill]

3 hours ago, minister_for_hardship said:

The GS&WR ones were long ago melted down, but the ones carried at Fermoy and Mallow may be in an attic perhaps...

That's what I'd be thinking. If they are, it would be good if the owner donated them, as being proper replicas they would look a lot better. That said, the ones it now carries will in time have their own historic significance as having been cast in Inchicore Works, eighty years after the loco they adorn was built there!

Plus, non-standard as they may be, they're the last loco numberplates ever cast in the works. The tradition goes back a century or so, prior to the closure of the foundry.

And the raw materials - the brass - came from among the last of the retired first-generation diesels....

[Westcorkrailway]

1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

That's what I'd be thinking. If they are, it would be good if the owner donated them, as being proper replicas they would look a lot better. That said, the ones it now carries will in time have their own historic significance as having been cast in Inchicore Works, eighty years after the loco they adorn was built there!

Plus, non-standard as they may be, they're the last loco numberplates ever cast in the works. The tradition goes back a century or so, prior to the closure of the foundry.

And the raw materials - the brass - came from among the last of the retired first-generation diesels....

Where did the brass come from?

[jhb171achill]

8 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

Where did the brass come from?

Driver's keys from 121 / 141 / 181s.

[skinner75]

1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

Driver's keys from 121 / 141 / 181s.

Glad to have one of these at home even more, after hearing that!

[Westcorkrailway]

13 minutes ago, skinner75 said:

Glad to have one of these at home even more, after hearing that!

Me too! 
 

I wonder would one regard the GM locos as 2nd generation deisals. That’s how I always saw it in my head cannon 

 

D, E, K, AEC railcar, A, C Sulzer (both types) ect. Spring to mind as first gen 

 

2nd gen being the 121s, 141s and 181s

 

Edited November 11 by Westcorkrailway

[jhb171achill]

28 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

Me too! 
 

I wonder would one regard the GM locos as 2nd generation deisals. That’s how I always saw it in my head cannon 

 

D, E, K, AEC railcar, A, C Sulzer (both types) ect. Spring to mind as first gen 

 

2nd gen being the 121s, 141s and 181s

 

They’d be first generation, as despite not operating since early 1963, a number of steam engines were technically on the books when they were being introduced. 

It’s reasonable to say they were the last of the first generation, while the 181s were the first of the second generation. Then in the 071s we’ve the only other 2nd gen, and the 201s, I suppose, are the only examples of any 3rd generation?

Will there be a 4th?

In passenger terms, probably not. Will there be any goods in the future to warrant a 4th gen of freight locos, powered not by diesel but by vegan compliant broccoli juice and zero-emission water?