"Voiding the Warranty" - Mol's experiments in 21mm gauge

[Horsetan]

2 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

.... I wish IRM/AS would use finer scale wheel profiles ....

I think they have to cater for the surprising number of people who still use Code 100 track.

[Mol_PMB]

Well this weekend's progress on the H vans has been less than expected, partly owing to a day spent working in the garden and some time with friends.

But also a significant realisation that once I reassembled the first wagon, the wheelsets would be trapped, and therefore I needed to finally make a decision about wheel profiles and back-to-backs. That also required some tooling to be made. So I've done all those other activities and haven't yet made any progress on the H van itself.

I have decided to use 21mm gauge, 19.2mm (-0 +0.1) back-to-back, and mostly Alan Gibson EM gauge profile wheels which have a rim width of 2.3mm. This compares with the 2.8mm rim width of the IRM wheels. I had previously found that the IRM wheels in the Bulleid wagons could not be set to even 19.0mm back-to-back without the front faces rubbing on the back of the W-irons. With the thinner EM profile wheels, there's adequate space for a 19.2mm b-t-b and still good clearance to the W irons.

So, for the IRM wagons the process is to take the wheels off the axles, and replace them with EM wheels set to 19.2mm b-t-b. This has required me to make a little press tool adaptor so that I can push the axle quite firmly without pressing on the pinpoint. Also I have made a 19.2mm b-t-b gauge.

The stock of Markits(?) wheelsets I got from John with 28mm axles have an intermediate wheel rim width of about 2.6mm, and they fit OK in John's models with a 19.2mm b-t-b. The flanges are a little thicker than the EM gauge wheels so I'll have to check they're OK once I get some pointwork.

For other wagons such as Parkside kits, I have used the Alan Gibson axles as well as their wheels, and extended the axles by 2mm by cutting in the middle and sleeving with a 2mm ID brass tube.

Gibson wheels on IRM axles in IRM H van chassis:

 

The next step is to do a batch of these and secure them to the correct b-t-b with a dab of superglue, and then paint/weather them as a batch.

 

Whoever said that getting started in 21mm took a lot of extra effort was right! But I like a challenge.

 

[Mol_PMB]

I'm back from holiday and have decided to build a couple of wooden-bodied open wagons to provide variety in my rake of my Bullied corrugated opens. Many of the photos of trains at Fenit in the mid-1960s show a mixture of wooden and corrugated opens, like these images from Ernie and John Powell:

The starting point was a pair of the Pre-Grouping Railways kits representing the GNR 6-plank open, a 3D printed kit with etched detail parts and available here:

https://pregroupingrailways.com/product-category/irish-railways/

This was pretty much an Irish standard wagon design used by many of the Irish railways. However, there are various detail differences. 

• The kit represents the type with a wooden underframe, but some railways preferred a steel underframe, and this also had implications on the style of body strapping. I decided to build mine as wooden underframe variants.
• The kit provides 3D printed ribbed buffers but none of the prototype photos I found had them. However, there were several different buffer styles used by various railways.
• The kit also has grease-lubricated axleboxes but most wagons in service in the CIE era had oil axleboxes which are a different shape
• The arrangement of planks was very variable, within a consistent overall height. Some wagons had fewer, wider planks, and later repairs led to wagons with different numbers of planks on various parts of their body!

I decided to build one wagon as a former GSR (possibly GSWR) type with self-contained buffers, and the other as a former MGWR type with spindle buffers.

Here's the current progress on the pair, MGWR on the left and GSR on the right:

The kit comprises 3 main parts - body and two rocking axleguard assemblies (suitable for 28mm axles and 21mm gauge). On each wagon I fixed one axleguard assembly and used a wire pivot for the other to rock giving some compensation.

The appropriate type of buffers were fitted. Lanarkshire B011 castings for the GSR type, and Gibson 4967 turnings for the MGWR type. Etched coupling hooks were also fitted.

I filed the axleboxes to a rectangular shape to represent the oil-lubricated type, and added the cover plate fixing bolts with wire (only done on the GSR wagon so far). A bit of fine work with the Dremel and a scalpel has hollowed out one of the boxes to represent a missing cover (quite common in reality!)

I bent up some 1mm x 0.25mm nickel silver strip to represent the door bangers (only done on the GSR wagon so far).

The next step is to get the MGWR wagon up to the same stage as the GSR one, and then to add the brake gear to both. I also need to add mounts for Kadee couplings, and other minor details such as worksplates, label clips and perhaps a representations of the chains for the door securing pins.

 

Some photos of prototype examples, first the MGWR ones, known numbers are 694M and 850M, both of which survived until at least 1970 with 694M receiving a repaint and CIE roundel at its 1967 overhaul:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511304021

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511736610

I plan to model 850M.

 

Now the GSR examples, known numbers are 11162, 11476, 11562, 11595, 11644, 11743, 11786, 11802.

Photos around 1960 show them with flying snails. 11162 and 11802 had been repainted in grey roundel livery in the late 1960s, while 11644 received a repaint in red-brown with roundel in 1970.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53498764321

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/49428783072

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508785409

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511647714

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/49529164797

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/52392496910

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570648608

Ernie's photo of 11562 is particularly nice and I plan to model this wagon:

 

I'm enjoying building these, and I may well buy another to build as an ex-GNR wagon in tatty GNR livery with CIE stencil.

Some of the GNR 6-plank wagons survived long enough to get repainted in CIE roundel livery such as 3541N seen here in 1970:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511304876

I might also buy one of the GNR 4-plank versions (available as a kit from the same manufacturer), which were also to be found at Fenit in the 1960s:

 

[David Holman]

Fine work and also like all the research. Anyone modelling wagons from this side of the water usually has a wealth of photos and other material to work with - even whole books on the subject. My experience has mostly been peering at the background of photos to try and identify details, so Ernie's archives are really important and the one of 11562 a real gem.

 Hadn't noticed the missing axle box cover before, but learned fairly early on not to get too precious about certain details and things like different buffers on opposite ends and different wheels on the same wagon seemed quite common!

[Mol_PMB]

I've completed the construction and detailing of these two 6-plank open wagons, and I've distressed the woodwork a bit based on the prototype photos.

They now need to be cleaned up and painted, but that will have to wait until after my weekend trip to Ireland.

On the latter topic, does anyone have recommendations for things to do in Dublin on Sunday, on a railway/transport/industrial history theme? I've got almost all day, I just need to be at the airport by about 1900. Most of Tripadvisor's 'top 20 things to do in Dublin' seem to be trips away from Dublin to somewhere else! (I've already pencilled in the Casino museum at Malahide on Friday afternoon when I arrive).

Failing that, any recommendations for nice pubs a bit off the tourist trail, maybe near the LUAS?

 

[Mol_PMB]

A thoroughly good trip today courtesy of the RPSI, and great to catch up with a few people. 
071s still sound as good as ever, and Cravens remain my favourite carriage type, despite the lively ride at high speed. 
The railtour catering provision has come a long way since 1508, and there seemed to be a lot of empty kegs by the end of the day. I don’t think it was all me!

 

[Flying Snail]

On 8/5/2025 at 8:38 PM, Mol_PMB said:

On the latter topic, does anyone have recommendations for things to do in Dublin on Sunday, on a railway/transport/industrial history theme? I've got almost all day, I just need to be at the airport by about 1900. Most of Tripadvisor's 'top 20 things to do in Dublin' seem to be trips away from Dublin to somewhere else! (I've already pencilled in the Casino museum at Malahide on Friday afternoon when I arrive).

Failing that, any recommendations for nice pubs a bit off the tourist trail, maybe near the LUAS?

 

You've picked a good weekend for it ... its nice and sunny today (Sunday)

Train related attractions are limited, but the National Transport Museum in Howth should be open from 2pm to 5pm today - don't let the name fool you, it's not on the scale of any of the major transport museums in Britain, or even the excellent Ulster Transport Museum in Cultra. Its very much a small scale volunteer operation. However, its an interesting spot with some nice gems - mainly buses and commercial vehicles, so no trains but they do have a tram or two. I recommend checking with them that they're open though.

My top train related recommendation* on a day like today, especially for a man who likes his Guinness, is to get the DART to Howth and take the cliff walk. Fabulous views and you can take a break in the summit inn for a well deserved pint/lunch, before heading back down into the village for more pints or maybe out to the Transport Museum. Theres some nice pubs and restaurants in Howth, especially if you're into seafood.

Be warned though - while its "near" to the airport, getting there from Howth by public transport requires heading back to the city centre. However, by taxi the airport is just 20 minutes or so from Howth (depending on traffic).

* I would also have recommended the DART to Greystones and taking the cliff walk from there back to Bray station, but a landslide in 2021 has resulted in the walking trail's closure

[Mol_PMB]

Ah, that’s great, many thanks. Howth seems like a great option on a sunny day so I’ll head there for a walk this morning and the museum this afternoon. 
I think I can get the 102 bus from Sutton to the airport but I’d better check its times on Sundays. 

[Mol_PMB]

My Sunday was great, all went as planned so thanks for the recommendations. 

 

I now have a new favourite Irish beer - ‘Hop-On’ from the Howth Junction based Hope brewery:

[Flying Snail]

Nice pics - glad you enjoyed it! You've drank the Dart beer ... now you'll have to get the Dart tee-shirt 

 

[Mol_PMB]

A bit more progress on the two wooden wagons. I've done most of the pre-painting, just a dirty wash still to do:

Then I'll add the top coat of grey paint before taking most of it off again to reveal the tatty woodwork and rusty metalwork underneath!

I've ordered two more of these Pre-Grouping Railways kits, another 6-plank and a 4-plank, which will be done as former GNR wagons rather than the GSR and MGWR variants seen here. There are only minor differences between the prototypes.

[StevieB]

They make up into fine models. What underframes have you used. Are they part of the body kit or do you have to source them separately.

Stephen

 

[Mol_PMB]

Just now, StevieB said:

They make up into fine models. What underframes have you used. Are they part of the body kit or do you have to source them separately.

Stephen

 

Thanks Stephen, they do turn out nicely!

The body and underframe (but not the W-irons) is a one-piece 3D printed part. This is superbly detailed inside and out, and with the best surface finish I've seen on a 3D print. The 'distressing' of some planks was done by me; the body as supplied is pristine.

Then there are two sets of 3D printed W-iron rocking cradles, one for each wheelset, which can be fixed rigidly or pivoted in the middle on a piece of wire. They can be supplied for 21mm or 16.5mm gauge. As supplied they represented grease axleboxes, and I modified them to the newer oil lubricated type (including one with its cover missing).

Smaller 3D printed parts include buffers and brake blocks, but I chose to replace those with castings.

There is also an etch for the brake handles and guides. The door banger springs weren't included - I made them from nickel silver strip.

 

When my next two arrive, I'll try to remember to photograph what's in the box before I start messing with it!

 

 

The are currently 3 Irish wagons available in the Pre-Grouping Railways range and they can be bought in 4mm or 7mm scale. The proprietor intends to gradually widen the Irish range. His own Irish interests are primarily DNGR / GNR, but many of the GNR wagons were very similar to GSWR / MGWR / GSR vehicles so the kits can be used to represent southern wagons too. Of course the GNR wagons got everywhere too.

[Flying Snail]

1 hour ago, Mol_PMB said:

The are currently 3 Irish wagons available in the Pre-Grouping Railways range and they can be bought in 4mm or 7mm scale. The proprietor intends to gradually widen the Irish range. His own Irish interests are primarily DNGR / GNR, but many of the GNR wagons were very similar to GSWR / MGWR / GSR vehicles so the kits can be used to represent southern wagons too. Of course the GNR wagons got everywhere too.

They look very well, you've done a very nice job with them! And its great to see of another supplier of Irish kits. Looking forward to seeing pre-assembly pictures of the next two as well