The Green H Vans

[Mol_PMB]

With the ship carrying the IRM fitted H vans almost visible from the crow’s nest, I thought it would be timely to write about the green ones. IRM haven’t offered a green one (yet), perhaps wisely, because they were non-standard in some respects. Nevertheless, they were eye-catching vehicles during their short life in that livery, and I recall that I made an attempt at modelling one back in the 1980s during my first attempt at Irish modelling. By gathering together some information on them, perhaps this will help others to do a better job than I did back then!

The only really clear, complete colour view of a green H van that I am aware of is in the RCTS archive, and can be seen on this link. It is number 18829:

https://archive.rcts.org.uk/shopviewer.php?pg=44353&code=CH06463C

There are some interesting things we can see in this photo (follow the link and you can zoom in to see the details):

• The sides are green, but the rest of the van is black.
• The buffers have been extended by inserting some packing pieces behind them. The packing is approximately 6” thick and much longer bolts have been fitted.
• Otherwise, from what we can see in this view, it’s a fairly standard ‘fitted’ H van.

In 1967, Pender&Richards wrote with reference to the H vans in general:

Nos. 18542-18761 were built with vacuum brakes and can run on passenger trains. The group 18762-18861, which were built in 1958, were fitted with vacuum brakes in 1961/62. These wagons were painted green at the same time, though some have since been repainted in the standard grey livery. Fifteen of this group were fitted with sliding doors (for pallet traffic) at the same time.

The green one linked above in the RCTS photo is number 18829 (towards the end of the batch apparently retro-fitted and painted green), shown in 1962. Of course there is no guarantee that there were modified and repainted in numerical order.

 

It wasn't a new idea to have 4-wheel wagons capable of running in passenger trains, and finished in passenger livery. For example, many horseboxes were vacuum-brake fitted and painted green.

However, the timing of these modified and repainted H vans, being outshopped in 1961/62 was unfortunate because the black and tan livery was just about to replace the green livery for passenger trains. Also, many branch lines were closed to passengers (or closed entirely) in the 1960s, reducing the need for passenger-train rated vans. It is not clear whether all 100 vans were outshopped in green; if they were then many of them must have repainted in grey fairly quickly.

 

Let’s look at some more pictures of green H vans, appearing in the background of other photos.

'Irish Railways in Colour' (Ferris) vol 2 p. 13 shows one at Inchicore in the background of a photo of 'Sambo', but only the top half is visible. I think there must have been a gallery of photographers taking almost the same photo at this time in 1961, as very similar but non-identical views appear in other places. For example, this photo from Ernie shows almost the same scene as the photo in the book, but a moment earlier or later. The van hidden behind Sambo is a green one, whereas the ones on the left and the right are grey:

The best variant of this shot I've found in a book is shown below in heavily-cropped form, which clearly shows the extended buffers, screw coupling and the livery of green with black ends and underframe:

Again, there was clearly an enthusiast visit to North Wall in 1961 where several people photographed 'Woolwich' 376 at the head of a freight train, with the first wagon being a green H van. These are all in the IRRS Flickr archive; sadly none of the images have a legible number on the van:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570708143

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53569609807

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510258067

 

Another IRRS trip to Limerick also produced multiple photos of a green van in the background; these are cropped scans from a couple of my books:

 

One of Ernie's more recent posts is this image dated 1961, with some besuited individuals standing in exactly the wrong place for our purposes:

Also from Ernie, this photo is interesting, as it shows two fitted H vans in a mail train, and the visible end looks a lot darker than the sides suggesting that these are green with black ends. They are certainly doing the duty that the green vans were modified for. The nearer one appears to be 18774 but I can't make out the second one. The date is 1961:

 

A few more image links to the IRRS Flickr archive, which you will only be able to see if you are a member:

Dated 1961 and from the IRRS Flickr archive, the van on the far left appears to be a green one, though I confess the colours on this image aren't the best:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53468861704

Here's another image from the IRRS Flickr archive showing a green H van in 1962, marshalled among other unfitted H vans in a normal freight train:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570662593

This is the latest photo of a green H van I've found, dated 1967. It's a rather distant view unfortunately, and in the IRRS Flickr archive:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53569603052

 

So, it seems that in 1961 the green vans weren't incredibly rare, it's possible that there were tens of them. However, almost all the images of them that I've found are from 1961, very few in later years, so most may have been quickly repainted. It's possible that the later conversions in 1962 were never painted green; that would seem unlikely for any outshopped after the black and tan passenger livery was introduced.

 

I have several more posts on the subject coming up, which may muddy the waters further.

If you can point me towards more photos of green H vans, please do!

 

Mol

[Mol_PMB]

Now, it’s time to throw a spanner in the works! Ernie has some marvellous photos on Flickr showing veteran 0-6-0T number 90 shunting vans at Cork Albert Quay, dated 12 September 1960:

One of the vans shown clearly in these images is 18836, within the batch built in 1958, apparently retro-fitted with vacuum brakes and painted green in 1961/62, and only a few numbers higher than green 18829 that we’ve seen already. Yet this van is already vacuum-brake-fitted in 1960 (we can see the vac cylinder, vac pipe as well as the brake handwheel in the first photo). It is in rather grimy grey livery that would be consistent with a couple of years in service since being built in 1958. According to Pender&Richards this van ought to have been unfitted at this date.

Is the photo date plausible? Well loco 90 was withdrawn at Cork shed in October 1959, but soon reinstated and remained in use on pilot, shunting and occasional railtour duties until it was withdrawn finally in 1961. So, the photo date of 12 September 1960 is entirely plausible. Given the grimy grey condition of van 18836 I would suggest that it is shown prior to any conversion and repainting in green in 1961. Yet it is vacuum brake fitted already.

A possibility is that this batch of 100 H vans 18762-18861 were originally built with vacuum brakes (as per the previous 220 H vans), and that the 1961/2 conversion referred to in Pender&Richards was to fit the screw couplings and extended buffers. These would have made them more suitable for running in passenger and mail trains, and perhaps justified a different paint scheme to distinguish them from the other fitted H vans without extended buffers or screw couplings.

[minister_for_hardship]

In the first link, it's interesting that the painter picked out the letters and numerals on the wagon plate on the chassis. Normally they didn't bother with this.

[Mol_PMB]

2 minutes ago, minister_for_hardship said:

In the first link, it's interesting that the painter picked out the letters and numerals on the wagon plate on the chassis. Normally they didn't bother with this.

A good spot. Look closely at the image of the two in the mail train at Westland Row and I think they are the same:

Additionally, see the link in the next post I'm just writing...

[Mol_PMB]

Let's go back to another snippet of information in the Pender&Richards notes.

Fifteen of this group were fitted with sliding doors (for pallet traffic) at the same time.

The other really good quality photo of a green H van (albeit a black and white image) is one of those fitted with sliding doors. This is in the IRRS Flickr archive so it is only viewable by members. Here’s the Flickr link:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510273317

Intriguingly this wagon is 18828, the consecutive number to the hinged door version in the RCTS photo. The bodysides are completely different but everything else looks the same as on 18829, including the livery (green sides, remainder black) and the extended buffers. Additionally, we can see clearly that screw couplings are fitted. Although variable in length, screw couplings are fundamentally longer than 3-link couplings and this could be a reason for extending the buffers on these wagons. In the IRRS photo, 18828 is marshalled between two other similar wagons in the same livery, so there are actually three of them in that photo although we can only see a small part of the other two. We can see enough to be sure that they were also fitted with sliding doors.

Now, these sliding door H palvans are visually very distinctive compared to all other types. For weeks I've been scouring photos showing goods yards full of vans looking for more images of them. I have come up with just one! There were only 15 in total, but I'd have expected to find more than one photo. Other rare types such as GSR grain vans crop up rather more frequently.

Anyway, here's a link to the photo in the IRRS Flickr archive. It's dated 1972 and by this time the van has been repainted grey, and is marshalled among a train of the later type of palvan:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510435292

 

In the next post I'll go back to some of the hinged door versions as seen in later life.

 

 

[Mol_PMB]

So, what became of the green H vans with hinged doors? Well I think the answer is that they got repainted, and disappeared into the regular H van fleet. With the green paint gone, it was only the buffers and couplings to distinguish them from the normal fitted H vans, and these don't stand out in general photos unless you're looking very closely.

Fitted vans were preferred for the Derry Goods so it's no surprise to find a shot at Waterside in 1972 where the nearest fitted H van appears to have the extended buffers of a former green one, but is now painted grey:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509190566

In 1977 Jonathan Allen photographed 18778 in the Youghal goods, its number is within the modified batch but it does not have a screw coupling or vacuum bag, and the buffers appear to be the standard type; it probably lost its special features at overhaul:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/40288038462

https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/26356242948

Another example which did keep its extended buffers is 18848, which was still lurking at Inchicore in brown livery in 1986 and 1988 as seen in these two photos:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509013426

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511545930

 

That's all I've got so far. Any more info or photos would be welcome.

When the IRM H vans turn up, I have plans to bash some of them into these types...

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

Let's go back to another snippet of information in the Pender&Richards notes.

Fifteen of this group were fitted with sliding doors (for pallet traffic) at the same time.

The other really good quality photo of a green H van (albeit a black and white image) is one of those fitted with sliding doors. This is in the IRRS Flickr archive so it is only viewable by members. Here’s the Flickr link:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510273317

Intriguingly this wagon is 18828, the consecutive number to the hinged door version in the RCTS photo. The bodysides are completely different but everything else looks the same as on 18829, including the livery (green sides, remainder black) and the extended buffers. Additionally, we can see clearly that screw couplings are fitted. Although variable in length, screw couplings are fundamentally longer than 3-link couplings and this could be a reason for extending the buffers on these wagons. In the IRRS photo, 18828 is marshalled between two other similar wagons in the same livery, so there are actually three of them in that photo although we can only see a small part of the other two. We can see enough to be sure that they were also fitted with sliding doors.

Now, these sliding door H palvans are visually very distinctive compared to all other types. For weeks I've been scouring photos showing goods yards full of vans looking for more images of them. I have come up with just one! There were only 15 in total, but I'd have expected to find more than one photo. Other rare types such as GSR grain vans crop up rather more frequently.

Anyway, here's a link to the photo in the IRRS Flickr archive. It's dated 1972 and by this time the van has been repainted grey, and is marshalled among a train of the later type of palvan:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510435292

 

In the next post I'll go back to some of the hinged door versions as seen in later life.

 

 

What’s interesting too, is that despite the passenger livery applied - green sides but the rest black, roofs appear to have been grey. Standard passenger livery for coaching stock had black roofs on all types of stock in all liveries, until the first Mk 2s in 1972.

[Mol_PMB]

Not a green H van, but a green horsebox (also with black ends and underframe), in a freight train from a 1964 film. Incidentally the train had no fewer than 4 brake vans on the back!

Screenshot showing the horsebox:

Link to the whole clip:

This photo of Ernie's also appears to show three horseboxes in the same green livery, with the large XP markings seen on the one in the film clip (that were not applied to green H vans):

 

But by no means all horseboxes or other passenger-rated vans were painted green, again here are a couple of Ernie's photos showing grey ones in green trains:

 

[jhb171achill]

First, horse boxes. While it was common, if not traditional in some lines, to have these in passenger livery, they were grey or unlined maroon in GSR days. When maroon, ends were too.

Initially in CIE days they were plain unlined (dark) green, ends included, but with small painted flying snails as on wagons (in pale green, obviously) rather than the snail transfers put on loco tenders, buses and carriages. After 1955/6/7, any repainted got the plain lighter green. From 1962, any repaints were standard wagon grey.

The green “H” vans - according to official reports over 100 were supposed to be green - but as others mentioned the livery changed after months, so in actual fact very few indeed actually entered traffic that way. 

An unconfirmed report I had years ago suggested that 4-6 were painted that way, but no more. Personally, I suspect that somewhat more were, but by no means many; and (as others have observed) what few did get the green, didn’t keep it long.

Within my own observation of these wagons, all over Ireland, and dating back to the early 1960s, I never saw a single green H. And I saw goods trains on an almost daily basis from 1962 onwards.

My perception (unconfirmed), from those long deceased who would have “known stuff”, was that initially at any rate, they were intended for Cork - Tralee mails, and to be hauled by the ICRs of the day - the AEC railcars, which were almost the staple on those services. 

I’ve yet to see a picture, though, of one behind an AEC, let alone on that route, but I’m aware they did do that.