'Silver' carriages

[Mol_PMB]

I have been trying to work out which CIE carriages carried 'silver' (more accurately aluminium) livery. I'll start with this lovely 1959 photo from Ernie of the 'space-age silver' TPO, luggage van and carriage contrasting with an ancient 2-4-0 kettle and an equally ancient wooden van:

I think I've worked out the following:

• Carriages built up to 1953 on the traditional underframe and GSR-style bogies were green with black underframe (matching the AEC railcars).
• Carriages built in 1954/55 on the triangulated underframe and commonwealth bogies were green with silver underframe. This includes the Park Royals.
• Carriages built from around 1956 to 1958 were all silver (matching the newly delivered Metrovick locos). This includes:
  • 1429-1443 and I think 1444-1448 standards (7 bays of 10 seats)
  • 2162-2171 composites
  • 2700-2765 4w tin vans
  • 2962-2971 4w TPO (but with black underframes, and silver carried up onto edge of roof)
  • 2972-2978 TPO (but with black underframes, and silver carried up onto edge of roof)
  • 3101-3141 4w heating vans
• Buffet cars 2419-2422 were also built in this period but I'm not sure whether they were green or silver? I haven't found a photo of a silver one.
• The carriages introduced from mid-1958 onwards reverted to green livery with black underframe (as did the diesel locos). These included the later-built laminates and tin vans:
  • 1449-1496 standards (8 bays of 8 seats)
  • 1909-1913 brake standards
  • 2172-2179 composites
  • 2549-2558 bogie brake/luggage vans
  • 3142-3152 4w heating vans
• After that, I think it was black and tan.

So, to the questions:

• Have I got this right? If so, then there weren't actually very many silver passenger carriages - only about 30 of them. Many more vans of course.
• Were all the silver carriages true 'laminates'? The TPOs in particular do not have the normal bulbous 'laminate' cross-section.
• Some of the silver carriages had their numbers and class designations in red. Was this true of all of them?
• Were any older carriages repainted or reclad in silver/aluminium in this period? Asking because the 1331-1334 series GSR suburban composite, nearest carriage in Ernie's photo below, looks rather silver! (note - there is a silver laminate towards the rear of the train for comparison)

 

 

Thanks to Ernie and IRRS, a couple more images of silver carriages, mostly in colour, just to make sure I've illustrated all six types listed above:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54257008899

Nice mix of 3 silver and 4 green carriages here, with a black and tan 141 on the front:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54257002708

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54257198895

 

[minister_for_hardship]

Open to correction, but I recall it was coaches in as-built bare aluminium sheet rather than being painted silver.

[Mol_PMB]

2 minutes ago, minister_for_hardship said:

Open to correction, but I recall it was coaches in as-built bare aluminium sheet rather than being painted silver.

Yes, you're correct for the bodies. The underframes were steel so they must have been painted. Most people describe the livery as 'silver' which is why I used that term.

[Mayner]

4 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

I have been trying to work out which CIE carriages carried 'silver' (more accurately aluminium) livery.

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

•  

 

 

Thanks to Ernie and IRRS, a couple more images of silver carriages, mostly in colour, just to make sure I've illustrated all six types listed above:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54257008899

 

 

 

 

It looks like some Bredin Coaches dating from the 1930s and non-Laminate stock appeared in silver.

1. The 1st  'silver coach' in the railcar set in the Killiney photo appears to be a Bredin Suburban coach (rainstrip & window/door arrangement main spotting feature). These coaches were built with steel body panels so possibly a re-paint as Bredin coaches which passed to RPSI retained their steel body panels until withdrawn from service in the early 1970s.

2. The coach behind 260 appears to be a Laminate Suburban coach which were converted to Brake Stds during the early 702

3.The TPO (built late 50s) appears to have aluminium body panels on traditional timber body framing. The body sides would have had to be near vertical above the tumblehome for the mail sorting racks, the 4w PO vans had a similar body profile, while the Tin & "Hooded Vans" had the teardrop body profile similar to the majority of Laminate coaches.

Main spotting difference between Liminate and conventional timber framed stock, was the Lainates were built with full height body panels (which included windows) with vertical coverslips between adjacent panels, without the horizontal coverslip at waist height used on conventionally built stock.

[Mol_PMB]

13 minutes ago, Mayner said:

 

It looks like some Bredin Coaches dating from the 1930s and non-Laminate stock appeared in silver.

1. The 1st  'silver coach' in the railcar set in the Killiney photo appears to be a Bredin Suburban coach (rainstrip & window/door arrangement main spotting feature). These coaches were built with steel body panels so possibly a re-paint as Bredin coaches which passed to RPSI retained their steel body panels until withdrawn from service in the early 1970s.

2. The coach behind 260 appears to be a Laminate Suburban coach which were converted to Brake Stds during the early 702

3.The TPO (built late 50s) appears to have aluminium body panels on traditional timber body framing. The body sides would have had to be near vertical above the tumblehome for the mail sorting racks, the 4w PO vans had a similar body profile, while the Tin & "Hooded Vans" had the teardrop body profile similar to the majority of Laminate coaches.

Main spotting difference between Liminate and conventional timber framed stock, was the Lainates were built with full height body panels (which included windows) with vertical coverslips between adjacent panels, without the horizontal coverslip at waist height used on conventionally built stock.

Many thanks John, that's useful to understand the differences in the panelling.

1. I agree that the 'silver coach' in the railcar set in the Killiney photo is a Bredin, it's a 1331-1334 series GSR suburban composite, and the particular spotting feature is that the end doors open into a seating bay (with a small window each side of the door) whilst the middle door has a vestibule. I can't decide whether it's really silver but it certainly looks that way. There's another colour photo in one of my books of a GSR suburban brake standard in the late 1950s, which also appears to be silver.

2. Agreed, it's a 2162-2171 series composite.

3. The TPOs are interesting, they are definitely a different body profile and I think you've hit the nail on the head for the reason why. Here's another of Ernie's photos with a closeup of one of the 4-wheel ones in silver:

That photo and this IRRS one clearly show the cover strip at the waist:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54257008899

Somewhere I have some photos of the interior of one of the preserved bogie TPO's, I'll have to dig them out and see if the framing is visible.

 

 

This photo of Ernie's dated 1959, and the IRRS one linked below it dated 1960, I think prove that the later laminates, specifically these two batches delivered in 1958-1960, were painted green from new:

• 1449-1496 standards (8 bays of 8 seats)
• 1909-1913 brake standards

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53499133230

The first photo also nicely illustrates the lack of horizontal strip at the waist as you mention.

 

 

 

[jhb171achill]

On 18/1/2025 at 1:42 PM, minister_for_hardship said:

Open to correction, but I recall it was coaches in as-built bare aluminium sheet rather than being painted silver.

Correct 

[jhb171achill]

On 18/1/2025 at 6:06 PM, Mol_PMB said:

Many thanks John, that's useful to understand the differences in the panelling.

1. I agree that the 'silver coach' in the railcar set in the Killiney photo is a Bredin, it's a 1331-1334 series GSR suburban composite, and the particular spotting feature is that the end doors open into a seating bay (with a small window each side of the door) whilst the middle door has a vestibule. I can't decide whether it's really silver but it certainly looks that way. There's another colour photo in one of my books of a GSR suburban brake standard in the late 1950s, which also appears to be silver.

2. Agreed, it's a 2162-2171 series composite.

3. The TPOs are interesting, they are definitely a different body profile and I think you've hit the nail on the head for the reason why. Here's another of Ernie's photos with a closeup of one of the 4-wheel ones in silver:

That photo and this IRRS one clearly show the cover strip at the waist:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54257008899

Somewhere I have some photos of the interior of one of the preserved bogie TPO's, I'll have to dig them out and see if the framing is visible.

 

 

This photo of Ernie's dated 1959, and the IRRS one linked below it dated 1960, I think prove that the later laminates, specifically these two batches delivered in 1958-1960, were painted green from new:

• 1449-1496 standards (8 bays of 8 seats)
• 1909-1913 brake standards

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53499133230

The first photo also nicely illustrates the lack of horizontal strip at the waist as you mention.

 

 

 

Hmmm - 1910! This became the "Loughrea Coach" in 1963, with storage heaters added!