Gauge of interest: Alphagraphix 4mm Irish kits

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, GSR 800 said:

I'd be willing to take two, with Mols one its enough to get an MGWR 3rd across the line.

Any thoughts for the MGWR 4 wheel parcels van, 'The Hearse'?

"The Hearse" was a relic which ended up on the Tramore line to carry parcels and prams on excursion summer Sundays. As an "everyday" vehicle it's not really a suitable prototype as there weren't many of them, and they weren't generally used in traffic. I'm not 100% sure about this - would have to check - but I think that by CIE days the isolated one on the Tramore line was by far the last of its type.

[Galteemore]

In terms of extra parts….All you will get are flat etches of sides, ends, floor and footboards - and hopefully a chassis etch. You’ll need wheels/bearings, buffers, vac pipes, couplings/NEM pockets, door handles, roof fittings, and axle guards 

Edited 4 hours ago by Galteemore

[Andy Cundick]

Certainly makes sense i'd be up for a couple most of the fittings are avaliable from MJT, Andy

[GSR 800]

2 minutes ago, Andy Cundick said:

Certainly makes sense i'd be up for a couple most of the fittings are avaliable from MJT, Andy

Dart can't deliver to the Republic though.

[jhb171achill]

50 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

Yes, the MGWR third would be my first choice of the coaches so please include me in that count. 
I’ll have a look at my carriage register spreadsheet when I get home, and remind myself which other types were late survivors. I think the lav compo? Not so sure about the brake third in the condition modelled.

By the end of six-wheeled passenger carrying days, the bulk of the remaining stock was passenger vehicles of MGWR origin, but brakes of GSWR origin! DSER stock had been purged already - a late 1940s CIE pogrom of much of what was south-eastern in origin had ensured that only a handful of DSER bogies saw much life in the 1950s, and rarely off their home turf too. Senior even remembered an influx of Southern and Midland stock onto the Harcourt Street line (on which he had commuted since 1922/3) almost immediately after the amalgamation in 1925. Wisht Caark stuff, boy, didn't stray off that system. I'm unaware of anything with a "B" after the number actually carrying passengers outside the CBSCR system to the end. Certainly, their 6-wheelers were exceptionally basic and in later days barely even fit for occasional excursions.

So, a TYPICAL six-wheeled excursion train in the 1950s or early 60s, would likely consist of a GSWR full brake or brake 3rd, maybe one GSWR type and half a dozen MGWR types. As Mol_PMB suspects, several types' there were at least several Cusack-roof types (new, probably, about 1905 and among the last six-wheelers built by any compaby other than the BCDR) in Cork. One at least was a former first, which I've seen pictures of. We now have the Hattons Genesis stuff, which does as GSWR types, hence my comments elsewhere that the MGWR type, being more numerous in diesel days, is something we could do with.

Worth adding that the few six-wheeled NON passenger carriages (full vans) which survived a few years longer (I think about 6) lasted in traffic until dates between later in 1964, and the last officially withdrawn in 1970. However, the last date there is proof of one in traffic is on the Galway Mail in summer 1968, and another possibly on the Cork mail the same summer, by which time only 2 or 3 were still nimibally in use. With the advent of the "Dutch" and "BR" vans imminent, they were gone. While the last was officially withdrawn in 1970, a 1969 photo I saw somewhere shows that it is clearly out of use for some time. Maybe they had just forgotten about it.

Of the few that lasted after 1963, and least three were repainted in black'n'tan, hence the Hattons model being the only 6-wheeler offered in that livery. The ones withdrawn in 1964-66 had remained green.

So, amongst our models - we may have a nice rake of hattons stock, but the van to run with them is green. The few painted orange and black were done so AFTER all the (green) passenger-carrying ones were torched, and in the new livery would not have run among their own kind. Instead, expect them to be surrounded by Bredin * CIE bogie mail vans, tin vans, and on passenger trains behind laminates, Park Royals, old wooden bogies in the new livery, the odd old Bredi9n, and just about possibly, a brand-new Craven. A black'n'tan loco or a grey and yellow B121 up front, of course, as they were gone before "Supertrain"..........

Edited 3 hours ago by jhb171achill

[Tullygrainey]

27 minutes ago, GSR 800 said:

Dart can't deliver to the Republic though.

or Northern Ireland

[Andy Cundick]

27 minutes ago, GSR 800 said:

Dart can't deliver to the Republic though.

It might be worth checking if Alphagrafix ,Andu

[leslie10646]

22 minutes ago, Andy Cundick said:

It might be worth checking if Alphagrafix ,Andu

There are "workarounds" ......

Relations in GB / UK help ......

[Mol_PMB]

Attached is the list of 6-wheel passenger coaches which survived as 'secondary stock' in the 1961 CIE carriage listing. By this time, thirds were classified as seconds.

A total of 39 coaches of which 36 were former MGWR.

When managing lists of fleet numbers, the MGWR is frustrating because they had separate number series for each carriage type, and all the GSR and CIE did was to add an M suffix. And when carriages were modified/downgraded, they were renumbered into the appropriate series. So even in the late survivors, there were duplicated numbers, such as 3M, 9M and 39M. I started adding photo links to the right-hand margin of this listing and then got confused with duplicate numbers, and haven't fully corrected them all yet. 

Now, the list of etched MGWR coach kits is as follows:

• MGWR Atock 6-wheel Brake/Third coach                                              £60
• MGWR Atock 6-wheel Third class coach                                                £60
• MGWR Atock 6-wheel Lavatory Composite coach                                £60
• MGWR Cusack 6-wheel First class coach                                              £60
• MGWR 4-wheel Parcels Van "The Hearse"                                               £50

Only the brake third and the hearse are illustrated on the website, but I found this lurking in the forum:

The card kits seem to include other types such as a brake compo and a coupe compo.

 

Brake third

9M and 21M survived until 1961. The IRRS has a photo of 21M at Tralee in 1957 which confirms it matches the kit.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54253243113

Also here from Ernie:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/50659862117

9M had the same dimensions and was built around the same time so was probably the same.

 

Third

The kit is for the common 5-compartment Atock type. The following vehicles of this type were listed in 1961:

3M, 9M, 13M, 30M, 36M, 39M, 45M, 49M, 53M, 56M, 57M, 62M, 84M, 85M

Some late era photos:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510409677

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570708148

https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/uploads/monthly_2025_09/IMG_3253.thumb.jpeg.bde10bbfca61c1a5bfd7d12af89df34b.jpeg

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510270832

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511483419

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511331153

https://www.flickr.com/photos/110691393@N07/32105983135

Other types of MGWR third also survived.

 

Lavatory Composite

187M and 190M were rebuilt from full firsts and like the kit they had four full compartments with a lavatory in the middle, like this:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54252115962

20M and 21M were a bit shorter and had a different seating arrangement but I haven't found a photo of them yet.

But the Alphagraphix card kit for a composite has a half-compartment at one end; 182M of this type was withdrawn in 1960 so isn't in the 1961 register.

 

Cusack First

This is the type illustrated on page 93 of Ernie Shepherd's book on the MGWR, dating from 1906. I can't see any of this type among the list of first class survivors in 1961.

However, many firsts were demoted to thirds or composites and renumbered, making them harder to trace. I think this compo 189M is former first 11M of this type, seen in use in 1958 but withdrawn before 1961:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508849579

 

Hearse

I believe there were only two built: 56M and 58M. Here is 56M at Tramore:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509093944

Here is 58M at Dun Laoghaire in the 1950s. It has spoked wheels whereas 56M on the W&T had disc wheels.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53505927307

 

Note: many photo links are to the IRRS Flickr Archive. If you can't see them, you need to join the IRRS!

 

Based on those findings, I think I could justify a third and a brake third if there's to be a run of these kits, and at a push one of each type except the hearse..

6-wheel_coaches.xlsx

[GSR 800]

1 hour ago, Mol_PMB said:

Attached is the list of 6-wheel passenger coaches which survived as 'secondary stock' in the 1961 CIE carriage listing. By this time, thirds were classified as seconds.

A total of 39 coaches of which 36 were former MGWR.

When managing lists of fleet numbers, the MGWR is frustrating because they had separate number series for each carriage type, and all the GSR and CIE did was to add an M suffix. And when carriages were modified/downgraded, they were renumbered into the appropriate series. So even in the late survivors, there were duplicated numbers, such as 3M, 9M and 39M. I started adding photo links to the right-hand margin of this listing and then got confused with duplicate numbers, and haven't fully corrected them all yet. 

Now, the list of etched MGWR coach kits is as follows:

• MGWR Atock 6-wheel Brake/Third coach                                              £60
• MGWR Atock 6-wheel Third class coach                                                £60
• MGWR Atock 6-wheel Lavatory Composite coach                                £60
• MGWR Cusack 6-wheel First class coach                                              £60
• MGWR 4-wheel Parcels Van "The Hearse"                                               £50

Only the brake third and the hearse are illustrated on the website, but I found this lurking in the forum:

The card kits seem to include other types such as a brake compo and a coupe compo.

 

Brake third

9M and 21M survived until 1961. The IRRS has a photo of 21M at Tralee in 1957 which confirms it matches the kit.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54253243113

Also here from Ernie:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/50659862117

9M had the same dimensions and was built around the same time so was probably the same.

 

Third

The kit is for the common 5-compartment Atock type. The following vehicles of this type were listed in 1961:

3M, 9M, 13M, 30M, 36M, 39M, 45M, 49M, 53M, 56M, 57M, 62M, 84M, 85M

Some late era photos:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510409677

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570708148

https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/uploads/monthly_2025_09/IMG_3253.thumb.jpeg.bde10bbfca61c1a5bfd7d12af89df34b.jpegFetching info...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510270832

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511483419

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511331153

https://www.flickr.com/photos/110691393@N07/32105983135

Other types of MGWR third also survived.

 

Lavatory Composite

187M and 190M were rebuilt from full firsts and like the kit they had four full compartments with a lavatory in the middle, like this:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54252115962

20M and 21M were a bit shorter and had a different seating arrangement but I haven't found a photo of them yet.

But the Alphagraphix card kit for a composite has a half-compartment at one end; 182M of this type was withdrawn in 1960 so isn't in the 1961 register.

 

Cusack First

This is the type illustrated on page 93 of Ernie Shepherd's book on the MGWR, dating from 1906. I can't see any of this type among the list of first class survivors in 1961.

However, many firsts were demoted to thirds or composites and renumbered, making them harder to trace. I think this compo 189M is former first 11M of this type, seen in use in 1958 but withdrawn before 1961:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508849579

 

Hearse

I believe there were only two built: 56M and 58M. Here is 56M at Tramore:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509093944

Here is 58M at Dun Laoghaire in the 1950s. It has spoked wheels whereas 56M on the W&T had disc wheels.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53505927307

 

Note: many photo links are to the IRRS Flickr Archive. If you can't see them, you need to join the IRRS!

 

Based on those findings, I think I could justify a third and a brake third if there's to be a run of these kits, and at a push one of each type except the hearse..

6-wheel_coaches.xlsx 17.02 kB · 0 downloads

58M at Kingsbridge, one spoked wheelset, one disc! 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509203665/in/photolist-2pwqE1Z-2pwphLQ-2pwqDUX-2pwpiNK-2pwiUt7-2qEvdvs-2pwqDXX-2pBQBck-2pwiU75-2pwphPf-2pBQBry-2pwiUa6-2pwncSt-2qEvdsS-2qEvduf-2pwf1xG-2qE5gXG-2qUMPG2-2pBSRdw-2pvHn98-2qEb7c4-2qEptXL-2pwxwPC-2pwq57W-2pwDCzX-2pwx5h4-2pwDaMX-2pwvVkt-2pwnd7B-2pwiTxE-2pBSgsz-2qEvdua-2pwiT3b-2pwiU2k-2pBLdEv-2psQmkk-2qEvdty-2qEvgfg-2qUUe8B-2pwosFV-2pwBDfg-2py3sZq-2pBLdFs-2pvwMcf-2pwot7e-2pwpjic-2pw8S54-2pwphVN-2qE5gB1-2pBQBag