CIE Horseboxes

[Mol_PMB]

A forum member asked me for some information on CIE horseboxes, including their liveries and withdrawal dates. It’s not a subject I had researched for my own interests as I had no plans to model a horsebox. However, it seems an interesting topic so I’ve done some research and will present it in this thread.

I will start with some statistics to answer the question on withdrawal dates. In subsequent posts I’ll add some images to illustrate the liveries and the different types of horsebox.

 

The CIE annual reports include useful statistics on many topics, and horseboxes are no exception. Tabulated data each year gives the number of horseboxes in the asset data, also the number of ‘horses carried by goods train’ in the traffic data.

Starting with the traffic data, the number of horses carried by goods train shows a generally downward trend through the 1950s and 1960s, eventually petering out by 1974. Some horses might also be carried by passenger train, and presumably those don’t appear in these statistics. Not all horses would be carried in horseboxes (some might be in cattle wagons); meanwhile horseboxes might be called on to carry other animals (such as prize cattle). Nevertheless, the general downward trend in the carriage of horses by train is clear to see.

 

The next graph shows the number of rail horseboxes, from 1951 to 1974. In the nationalised CIE’s first report in 1951, they had 175 horseboxes and that number remained fairly stable until 1958 (when there were 165 horseboxes). Over the next few years there was a drastic cull of horseboxes: 60% of them were withdrawn by 1962. After that, there was a gradual decline over the next decade and there were none left in 1973.

The 1969 CIE carriage register gives a total of 18 horseboxes which matches the figure in the 1970 annual report. Unfortunately the page listing their numbers is missing.

 

I have not found any evidence that CIE built any rail horseboxes, so the quantities in the graph above must represent older vehicles inherited from the CIE/GSR constituents.

I have been able to collate fairly good data on horseboxes for most of the railways, from the following books:

• GSWR Carriage Diagrams (Pender & Richards)

• GSR Coaching Stock (Pender, IRRS Journal no.61)

• The Midland Great Western Railway of Ireland (Shepherd)

• Dublin & South Eastern Railway (Shepherd & Beesley)

• Cork Bandon & South Coast Railway (Shepherd)

• Irish Broad Gauge Carriages (Coakham)

The WLWR vehicles would be included in the GSWR listings - I think GSWR diagram 102 is the former WLWR vehicles.

I expect there were a handful of narrow-gauge horseboxes (which might be included in the CIE statistics) but they won’t be numerous enough to skew the picture so I have not considered them.

I do not have any information on GNR horseboxes, but I suspect they play a small part in this story – CIE would have inherited half of them in 1958 just as they were conducting their drastic cull of horseboxes, so it’s unlikely that many GNR horseboxes remained in traffic with CIE for long.

At the formation of the GSR in 1924/5, the 5’3” gauge companies contributed the following quantities of horseboxes:

• GSWR: 117

• MGWR: 59

• DSER: 21

• CBSCR: 2

The GSWR was part-way through building a batch of horseboxes in 1924, and the GSR finished off this batch (but did not build any more after that). They were numbered 2980 to 3005, of which the first 6 are included in the GSWR total above; the remainder need to be added to the total:

• GSR: 20

That gives a total of 219 horseboxes in the mid-1920s.

From the CIE statistics we know that this had reduced to 175 by 1951. From the other references we know the quantities for some of the railways:

• GSWR: 111

• DSER: 5

• CBSCR: 0

Unfortunately I have not details of the individual withdrawal dates of the MGWR or GSR vehicles. If we assume that all 20 of the newest GSR horseboxes were still in use in 1951, then to get the correct total of 175 we would need 39 of the MGWR horseboxes to have survived until 1951. That seems a plausible estimate.

 

The next graph includes a mixture of some well-founded figures and some estimates based on the principle just described. It shows how the total number of horseboxes in traffic with CIE was made up according to their railway of origin.

The GSWR carriage diagrams book includes four diagrams of horsebox, and lists all the vehicle numbers individually with build and withdrawal dates. Consequently, the green parts of the plot are fairly certain. The DSER (orange) figures are also quoted individually in the relevant book.

The GSWR diagram 103 horseboxes (built 1911-1924) escaped the cull in 1959-1962 but the older GSWR and DSER types were mostly withdrawn in the cull. I am assuming that the diagram 103 vehicles completed by the GSR in 1924-1927 (shown in brown) also survived that cull.

We have to estimate the numbers of MGWR horseboxes (blue) based on the totals given in the CIE annual reports. This indicates that the MGWR horseboxes would have followed the same trend as the older GSWR and DSER vehicles – most survived until 1958 and then they all went in the cull. Whilst this may not be perfectly accurate, I think the trend is plausible and it is borne out by photos as we will see later in the thread.

 

To summarise:

• Until around 1960 there was quite a variety of horseboxes on CIE, including GSWR, MGWR, DSER and WLWR types.

• Between 1958 and 1962, 60% of the horseboxes were withdrawn and this affected all the older vehicles (a couple lasted a bit longer until 1964). The GSWR/GSR diagram 103 horseboxes built 1911-1927 survived that cull.

• From 1962 to 1972 the remaining fleet of this one type of horsebox gradually dwindled until the last few were withdrawn in 1973.

 

To illustrate the later survivors, this old print I acquired recently on eBay shows a diagram 103 horsebox number 142, which was built in 1913 and withdrawn in 1969. This photo is dated 1969, and I note that it has a 1965 repair date on the solebar.

This one appears to carry light green livery with black ends and underframe, with large XP lettering and the number in much smaller digits below. No snails or roundels to be seen.

For those not familiar with horse boxes, it may be useful to point out the main features.

• At the near end is the groom's compartment, i.e. human accommodation. I think this usually just contained a bench seat, maybe a light. I'm not sure whether grooms officially counted as 'passengers'.
• In the middle is the horse compartment. Half of the side drops down to form a ramp onto a platform, and there are some sprung arms connected to the solebar which would some of the weight when the flap drops down. The upper parts of the side open like cupboard doors. There are also sliding ventilators in the upper doors. Inside, there would be movable partitions so that up to 3 horses could be carried, usually facing the direction of travel.
• At the far end is a storage compartment for supplies like hay, water and cleaning/grooming equipment.
• The vehicle has vacuum brakes and screw couplings, and a long wheelbase so that it can run in fast passenger trains (hence the XP branding = express passenger).

Most 20th century horseboxes had a similar layout although the styling differed between railway companies. By the 1930s, some even offered the luxury of a toilet and washroom for the groom, like this LNER example, but I don't think any Irish horsemen were so lucky. 

[Mayner]

There a black & white photo of a train of 15 'Pacos" horseboxes topped and tailed by Tin Vans on a 14:20 Cabra-Listowel special at Newcastle West on 22 Sep 1969 in "Rails through North Kerry" (JHB + Barry Carse) Colourpoint 2016, van all pppear to be GSR/late GSW origin. The Listowel Races was an important week on the North Kerry with passenger specials until the line over Branagh Gap was condemned and through passenger and goods working between Newcastle West and Abbey Feal ceased duringvthe early 70s.

[Colonel]

Great piece of research. The SLNCR had at least one horsebox that was an ancient WLW model, complete with dog box at one end - another interesting feature.

[Mol_PMB]

I'll try to illustrate each of the types of horsebox. In this post, I'll start with the MGWR.

 

MGWR Horseboxes

 

The MGWR contributed 59 horseboxes to the GSR in 1924, of which an estimated 39 were still in traffic in the early 1950s. However, they were withdrawn in the 1958-1962 horsebox cull.

Photographs indicate that at least two types of MGWR horsebox were still running in the 1950s, but I do not have any documentary data giving individual numbers or quantities of each type.

 

The most distinctive MGWR horseboxes had a rather short body, with a low-height compartment at one end which could be used for dogs. This photo from Ernie illustrates the type well – this is number 19M in 1953:

JM Design has produced a very nice etched kit for this type of horsebox:

Other good photos of this type of horsebox are available in the IRRS Flickr archive if you are a member.

Here is 55M in the late 1940s – unusually with two small flying snail logos:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507996077

Two photos of 52M in 1957, near the end of its life:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54253256089/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54252116072/

There is also a good photo of 60M, dated 1953, in the book ‘Irish Broad Gauge Carriages’ (Coakham) p23

 

The other type of MGWR horsebox had a more conventional shape and I assume it was a newer design. This IRRS photo of 36M in 1960 illustrates the type well. The door to the storage compartment has a droplight window, which is a distinctive feature of this type:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54252116092

Another can be seen behind the loco in this 1955 photo from Ernie, which also shows that these vehicles were quite tall:

 

 

And there is one on the right-hand margin of this 1953 image:

 

 

This 1955 photo has a tantalising glimpse of a horsebox. EDIT: I now think this is a DSER horsebox, see the next post. 

Perhaps someone more specialised in Midland matters can give more details of these?

Edit: John Mayne has kindly added more details and the number series for these MGWR horseboxes in another post downthread:

https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/19747-cie-horseboxes/#findComment-275259

 

Edited January 17 by Mol_PMB
Caption to last photo, last link

[cheesy_peas]

1 hour ago, Colonel said:

Great piece of research. The SLNCR had at least one horsebox that was an ancient WLW model, complete with dog box at one end - another interesting feature.

A similar design to that of the MGWR, imagine it was for the horse 'n' hounds set.

Horse boxes here were quite possibly the very last vehicles to use oil lighting, long obsolete in passenger stock, for internal lighting.

Edited January 15 by cheesy_peas

[Mol_PMB]

DSER Horseboxes

The DSER contributed 21 horseboxes to the GSR in 1924, but only 5 were still in traffic in the early 1950s and they had all gone by 1961. Those five were:

14D, built by Ashbury in 1879 and later transferred to the W&T section where it lasted until 1955.

1D, 7D, 8D, 9D, built by the DSER in 1909-1913 and withdrawn in 1958-1961.

 

Fortunately, both types are well illustrated in the book ‘Irish Broad Gauge Carriages’ (Coakham); there are images of 8D and 14D on p28. The two types were different in style and appearance.

Otherwise the few DSER-built vehicles seem to have been camera-shy.

However, 14D on the W&T makes cameo appearances in a few photos such as these from Ernie:

 

 

WLWR Horseboxes (later GSWR Diagram 102)

The WLWR built 8 horseboxes in 1897-1898, which were soon inherited by the GSWR and became their diagram 102. Five of these survived into CIE days, as follows:

• 1025, withdrawn 1964

• 1026, withdrawn 1961

• 1037, withdrawn 1959

• 1038, withdrawn 1960

• 1040, withdrawn 1961

This photo from Ernie shows an excellent (though cropped) view of 1025 in the 1950s. This evaded the major cull and was not withdrawn until 1964:

We saw this 1953 photo before in the MGWR post, but the other horsebox partly hidden by the loco is a former WLWR vehicle:

Finally, this IRRS photo from the 1940s has a horsebox hiding behind the water column. I think it is another of the WLWR boxes:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508874946/

 

[Mol_PMB]

A short addendum to the previous post - here is GSWR carriage diagram 102 which illustrates the ex-WLWR horse boxes described above:

[Mol_PMB]

GSWR Horseboxes: Diagrams 100 and 101

 

Diagram 100 comprised 24 horseboxes built in 1897, and numbered 195-198 and 260-279. These were short vehicles and did not have a storage compartment.

The diagram shows some distinctive features including coach-style panelling on the groom’s compartment, and a clerestory-type ventilator on the roof over the horse compartment. Another unusual feature is that the upper part of the side is shown as hinging upwards – on most horseboxes this part of the side was formed of cupboard doors.

Two were withdrawn in 1941 but the others survived into the 1950s. As might be expected, the fleet was withdrawn in the mass cull of horseboxes in 1958-1962.

 

Diagram 101 comprised at least 47 horseboxes built between 1895 and 1911. Numbers were in three ranges but there were some gaps within the first range: 146-185, 283-292, 1056-1067.  

They were very similar in size and appearance to the Diagram 100 vehicles, and also had upward-opening upper side doors. However, they were plainer in appearance with no carriage-style panelling.

One was withdrawn in 1941 but the others survived into the 1950s. As might be expected, the fleet was withdrawn in the mass cull of horseboxes in 1958-1962, the last two surviving into 1964.

 

Horseboxes from both of these diagrams were modified over the years, with many losing their clerestory vents. The Diagram 100 vehicles seem to have lost their distinctive panelling too, and the upper side doors were modified to a plainer design similar to Diagram 101. As a consequence, these two diagrams ended up looking extremely similar – hence why I am dealing with them together.

In the book 'Great Southern Railways' (Murray) p86 there is a photo which very nicely illustrates no.168 (Diagram 101) in GSR days. Note the recessed areas above and below the groom's window, and the tall thin recessed strip at the near end. These are distinctive features of Diagram 101.

 

This IRRS photo from the 1940s appeared in the MGWR post, but beyond the MGWR horesbox there is a GSWR Diagram 101 vehicle:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507996077

We also saw this 1953 photo from Ernie in the MGWR post, on the right we can see most of a GSWR Diagram 101 vehicle complete with its clerestory vent:

This 1957 photo from John Phillips shows a rake of seven horseboxes.

Zooming in, the nearest three look a lot like diagram 101, but they do not have the recesses above and below the groom's window, or the tall thin recessed panel at the opposite end. My best guess is that these are rebuilds of GSWR diagram 100. One of which retains its clerestory vent.

Beyond them is an MGWR vehicle followed by three GSWR diagram 101 (with recesses):

A few more examples from Ernie to come. 

This 1953 photo shows a Diagram 101:

This 1955 photo shows a flush-sided vehicle which I assume to be a rebuilt diagram 100 that retains its clerestory vent:

The second horsebox in this rake photographed in 1956 also seems to be a rebuilt diagram 100:

However, this photo also at Limerick in 1956 shows a diagram 101:

And finally for now, this IRRS photo shows another diagram 101, late in life in 1959 and surrounded by modern rolling stock:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54253429780

 

Edited January 15 by Mol_PMB
correcting typo

[jhb171achill]

Livery details on these things are indeterminate. 

As a GENERAL rule, plain dark green with snail at first (GSR maroon before 1945). Pale green without snail for any that were repainted after that until 1963. 

Green ones of all types had black ends, roofs & chassis as they were seen as “coaching” vehicles. However, on the Midland ones with the “dog box” end, it’s possible they had green ends - I just don’t know. 

Pictures of grey ones that I’ve seen have no CIE logo on them, either in snail or roundel days. Only a number and on SOME but not all, “XP”.

As a throwback to “coaching stock” days, at least some grey ones, uniquely, had black chassis, though others may have been grey - but they got so tatty that photos can’t show definitively whether all were black, or some grey…

 

[Mol_PMB]

Many thanks @jhb171achill

When I get on to the diagram 103 horseboxes then I will have some colour photos to illustrate the liveries you describe. 
But as you say it’s often hard to tell for the 1950s or earlier - in monochrome photos all the dark colours look much the same. I do have a couple of clues to present - but not tonight. 

[Wexford70]

On 14/1/2026 at 7:13 PM, Mol_PMB said:

A forum member asked me for some information on CIE horseboxes, including their liveries and withdrawal dates. It’s not a subject I had researched for my own interests as I had no plans to model a horsebox. However, it seems an interesting topic so I’ve done some research and will present it in this thread.

I will start with some statistics to answer the question on withdrawal dates. In subsequent posts I’ll add some images to illustrate the liveries and the different types of horsebox.

 

This is great research, really informative. Would you be able to share a diagram of the DSER version?

Would this likely be an image of the DSER variety?

 

Bray 1930s

The Transport Library | Dublin and South Eastern Railway 'F2' class 2-4-2T, No. GSR 428, ex DSER No. 3 St Patrick at Bray coupled to a horsebox circa...

Edited January 16 by Wexford70
added image

[Mol_PMB]

19 minutes ago, Wexford70 said:

This is great research, really informative. Would you be able to share a diagram of the DSER version?

Would this likely be an image of the DSER variety?

Thank you! I don't have a diagram of either DSER version, I'm sorry. 

Thanks for posting the image which is one I hadn't seen before.

• Immediately behind the loco is a GSWR Diagram 101.
• Partly visible on the edge of the image is an MGWR horsebox of the second, larger type.

 

I'd be very happy to see other horsebox images posted here. I'll try to finish the story with the GSWR diagram 103 and GSR horseboxes this evening or tomorrow, and then expand on their liveries.

[Sea Breezer]

https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000332959
Zoom in on this one for a partial view of 2 horse boxes, probably DW&WR variety

[leslie10646]

My limited research into GNR horseboxes (which are still on my list of things to do) shows that the 1885 version looked very like what I took to be a DSER one - complete with the Pagoda on the roof.

If I continue with Provincial wagons, I still have an intent to do a GN one, for obvious reasons to those who know me - although it would be more sensible to do the later 1938 version. The earlier ones APPEAR to have gone by the end of WW2.

@Mol_PMB, I salute you for this terrific thread and the considerable work which has gone into it. 

Maybe a GSR one makes more sense from a point of view of sales numbers?

Hhmmmm........

[Mol_PMB]

20 minutes ago, Sea Breezer said:

https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000332959
Zoom in on this one for a partial view of 2 horse boxes, probably DW&WR variety

 

Ah, excellent, nice to see another image of those camera-shy vehicles. Many thanks.

They look a lot like the DW&WR later DSER Ashbury type of 1879 - we saw the last survivor of those 14D on the W&T, upthread:

[Mol_PMB]

10 minutes ago, leslie10646 said:

My limited research into GNR horseboxes (which are still on my list of things to do) shows that the 1885 version looked very like what I took to be a DSER one - complete with the Pagoda on the roof.

If I continue with Provincial wagons, I still have an intent to do a GN one, for obvious reasons to those who know me - although it would be more sensible to do the later 1938 version. The earlier ones APPEAR to have gone by the end of WW2.

@Mol_PMB, I salute you for this terrific thread and the considerable work which has gone into it. 

Maybe a GSR one makes more sense from a point of view of sales numbers?

Hhmmmm........

Many thanks Leslie, that's very useful to know. 

GSWR diagram 103 (and the similar GSR-built ones) were the last survivors and would be likely to appeal to people modelling the 1960s, while also of course being suitable for most of the 20th century. There were subtle differences between them as I'll show in a future post.

[Wexford70]

RDS Sidings 1952 Facebook

When did the use of Pot Lamps end? I heard one of their last uses was in the horseboxes. 

[Mol_PMB]

Thanks!

Here's a couple of IRRS photos of this location in the 1950s, from ground level and with lots of horseboxes (road and rail) in shot. They're all rather distant though, so hard to identify:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509287640/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509287680/

 

 

[Wexford70]

Also 1950s

1951 I believe. Nice long line of boxes but a pity this copy is not sharper.  The Old Drone: Norman Ashe Aerial Photographic Collection | Facebook

Edited January 16 by Wexford70

[Mol_PMB]

Thanks again! Shots like these are still useful when we come to consider how horseboxes were used - which is on my list to add to this thread in due course.

[Mol_PMB]

GSWR Horseboxes: Diagram 103, including those built by the GSR

GSWR Diagram 103 comprised at least 38 horseboxes built between 1911 and 1924. Numbers were in four ranges but there were gaps within the first two ranges: 142-298, 1023-1041, 1100-1109, 2980-2985.  

The GSR continued building similar horseboxes from 1925 to 1927, with a further 20 numbered 2986 to 3005. These were very similar but the later ones had some design changes as we will see in the photos.

The diagram shows that these were considerably longer than their predecessors: 19’ over headstocks and with a 12’ wheelbase. This provided more space in all three compartments (groom, horse and storage) and more stable running at higher speeds.

As you can see from the listing on the diagram, they all survived into the 1950s and almost all escaped the cull around 1960, leaving this design to be the last type in traffic into the early 1970s.

This is a very clear view illustrating former GSWR 142 of 1913, in light green livery at the end of its life in 1969:

Also in 1969, this IRRS colour view of 295 shows the GSWR diagram 103 in light green livery very well:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511470293

Another useful closeup is this IRRS photo showing 1101 in the earlier dark green livery, with the flying snail transfer:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54778605579

We saw this 1956 shot upthread while commenting on the modified diagram 100, but the other three horseboxes visible here are diagram 103:

This shot dated 1950 gives a nice clear view of the end detailing, on the left hand margin of the image:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509066204

In 1960, a rake of three:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54253212614

Limerick Junction was a good place to see horseboxes, with the adjacent racecourse. These two photos each show a rake of three diagram 103 horseboxes in light green, in 1969 and 1967 respectively:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53449386531/

The GSWR diagram 103 horseboxes had steel underframes, but some of the later GSR-built equivalents had wooden underframes. This reflects a broader trend where the GSWR used steel on many of their wagons while the GSR reverted to wood. Here are a couple of partial closeup views of GSR 2991 which show the wooden headstocks and solebars of the last batch (alongside the main subject of the photo which is an MGWR horsebox we've seen before):

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54252116072/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54253256089/

As well as the different underframe material, the GSR horsebox has J-hangers and auxiliary rubber springs in addition to the leaf springs used on the GSWR diagram 103.

Both the GSWR and GSR types survives into the early 1970s, it appears that the slightly older GSWR vehicles with steel underframes lasted better than the wooden GSR vehicles.

I'll cover liveries more thoroughly in another post, but some of these horseboxes ended their life in grey livery with black underframe. These three IRRS photos from the early 1970s all show the final livery scheme:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570653133

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53527469213

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511614184/

[Mayner]

MGWR Horseboxes: The late P O'Cuimin provided details of the Horseboxes in his paper 'Carriage Stock of the MGWR-2" IRRS Journal 56 Vol 10 Oct 71. Padriag produced a large scale detailed drawing of an 1889 Horsebox in his "Broadstone Series" drawings published during the 1970s The IRRS Compendium of MGWR NPCS and Goods Vehicle Drawings (©IRRS 2016) includes GA drawings of K14 (1889) 15' underframe 9' wb  and K21 (1899) 16'6" underframe 9'6" wb horseboxes, the 1908 Type 'Harness Room" is drawn in outline on the K21 diagram

The main visual difference between the 1889 and 1899 versions appears to have been the larger grooms compartment fitted with a fixed window, torpedo roof vent and oil lamp

Its believed that pre-1889 horseboxes may have been to a similar outine with protruding dog box, a strong tradition of fox hunting among the landed gentry. John O'Meara published an IRRS paper on the Meath Line during the early 50s which included an account of complaints of a hunt trespassing (hunting with horses and hounds) on the railway line.

1889 Type-46.48,50,55 built 1889: 13,18,23,51-built 1890, 57-60-built 1892" 17 built 1894: 21,33 built 1895

1899 Type total 6 ---Nos 6.8.14,10,44,37 Built 1899-1901

1908 Type 21: 11,12,27,28 Built 1906!: 9,20,30-32,56 Built 1907: 45 Built 1908: 25,26,36 Built 1909: 35,37,41 Built 1910: 43 Built 1912 38,42 Built 1916: 29,54 Built 1919: 1,46 built 1921

[Mol_PMB]

5 hours ago, Mayner said:

MGWR Horseboxes: The late P O'Cuimin provided details of the Horseboxes in his paper 'Carriage Stock of the MGWR-2" IRRS Journal 56 Vol 10 Oct 71. Padriag produced a large scale detailed drawing of an 1889 Horsebox in his "Broadstone Series" drawings published during the 1970s The IRRS Compendium of MGWR NPCS and Goods Vehicle Drawings (©IRRS 2016) includes GA drawings of K14 (1889) 15' underframe 9' wb  and K21 (1899) 16'6" underframe 9'6" wb horseboxes, the 1908 Type 'Harness Room" is drawn in outline on the K21 diagram

...

That's super - many thanks John.

I have added a link from my original post on the MGWR vehicles to your more detailed description and listing.

[Mol_PMB]

Liveries

JHB has already summarised the liveries in this post upthread, but I'll try to expand that with a few photos here.

https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/19747-cie-horseboxes/#findComment-275216

 

Horseboxes were considered as passenger stock (or at least non-passenger coaching stock) and were usually painted in a version of the passenger livery.

I'll focus on the CIE period but I'll start with this rather nice view of the GSR scheme where the main body colour would have been maroon, The G S letters are spaced apart with the running number in between, all positioned along the middle of the side. CIE would have inherited the horseboxes in this scheme, before being repainted in CIE livery.

From 1945 until the early 1950s, the CIE passenger livery was dark green. On passenger coaches this was decorated primarily in eau-de-nil, including lining at waist and cantrail, class digits and one or more flying snails. Some of these features were edged in gold lining.

The horseboxes were not painted in such an elaborate way - the sides seem to have been plain dark green embellished only with a flying snail and a running number both in eau-de-nil. 

 

In very early CIE days it was the practice to apply 2 small snails to wagons, (see this thread: https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/19561-early-cie-wagon-livery-2-snails/ ) and at least one horsebox seems to have received this treatment as shown in this IRRS image: 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507996077

The majority had one medium-sized snail near the middle of the side, as seen in this photo from Ernie. The running number was usually on a panel next to the groom's door (so the right-hand end on one side and the left-hand end on the other side)

 

 

Of the horsebox photos I have studied, all the flying snails appear to be coaching-stock style transfers rather than wagon-style stencils. This closeup image is definitely a transfer, complete with the fine line around the edge:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54778605579

The exact position of the snail varied to suit the design of the horsebox and the whim of the paintshop:

 

In the early 1950s the carriage livery was simplified and some new and old carriages were outshopped in dark green without snails (also with simplified lining, or no lining at all, and third class digits omitted). The effect of this change on horseboxes would have been to omit the snail. There are some photos which appear to show dark green horseboxes without snails (including some in the photo above).

However, there are very few colour photos from this period to illustrate this livery, and it is often difficult to distinguish shades of green, grey and black in a monochrome photo. We can be fairly confident that the sides were dark green while the underframe and roof would have been black. However, the colour of the ends is less certain - black would be expected but some may have been dark green.

This colour photo from Ernie dated 1956 appears to show two horseboxes in rather tatty dark green livery. There's a definite green tinge to them, and they're so filthy that I don't think they can be in the recently-introduced light green scheme, so I think they must be dark green. 

Zooming in, the one on the left is the GSR variant of D103 on the left and a GSWR D100 on the right. I can't make out a snail on either of them. The strong sunlight/shadows and weathering on the ends makes it hard to judge colour but I'd say the right-hand one could have black ends but the left-hand one is impossible to judge. More colour photos needed! 

I'll cover the later liveries in another post.

[Mol_PMB]

Light Green Livery

CIE introduced their light green carriage livery in the mid-1950s and this was also applied to horseboxes until around 1961. This still from an IRRS film shows a fairly clean horsebox in light green. The only markings are a large 'XP' (indicating that it was suitable for inclusion in express passenger trains) and the vehicle number:

We've seen this image before, and although it is in monochrome it is useful to show the markings clearly. Both the XP and the vehicle number are on the panel adjacent to the groom's door. There are no other markings on the body but there is an overhaul date on the solebar. Underframe and ends are clearly black, as in the video still above too.

This IRRS colour photo clearly shows a diagram 103 horsebox in light green livery (black underframe and roof; we can't see the ends), but in this case there is no XP branding. The only marking on the vehicle body is the vehicle number, but we can again see an overhaul date on the solebar as well as an on/off indication for the handbrake:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511470293

This IRRS colour photo shows three diagram 103 horseboxes in light green livery. The nearer one seems to have XP branding but the others may not:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53449386531/

This photo from Ernie also shows three diagram 103 horseboxes in light green livery. All three have XP branding on the panel by the groom's door, but the positioning varies slightly:

This IRRS monochrome photo shows three diagram 103 horseboxes in 1960 almost certainly in light green livery; the nearer one definitely carries XP but positioned on the groom's door rather than on the adjacent panel. The other two do not obviously have XP branding:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54253212614

 

The light green livery was introduced a couple of years before the cull of older horseboxes. It was common to see the newer diagram 103 horseboxes in light green, but the livery was also applied to a few of the older vehicles before they were withdrawn.

This IRRS photo at Inchicore shows a newly-repainted GSWR diagram 100 horsebox, number 268, in light green livery in 1957. I found this photo after writing the post on Diagam 100, but it's a nice illustration of the type in its later condition. The only marking is the running number; these shorter vehicles may not have been eligible for the XP branding:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54252991786

This IRRS photo shows a clean and glossy GSWR diagram 101 horsebox in what appears to be light green livery in 1959:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54253429780

This IRRS photo of MGWR horsebox 36M in 1960 may also be in light green livery - there is certainly no snail - but it is hard to tell. It appears to have been patch-painted and may even be a combination of green shades:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54252116092

 

[Mol_PMB]

I'll finish off the horsebox liveries with a post on the final light grey scheme.

The black and tan carriage livery was introduced in autumn 1961 and the green livery for coaching stock was abandoned. As we've seen in the previous post, a fair number of newer horseboxes continued to carry their light green paint job until withdrawal in the late 1960s. The older horseboxes had mostly been withdrawn by 1961 anyway. 

The black and tan scheme was partly designed to make carriages of very disparate styles look good together in a train, as the black tended to conceal differences in window layout and panelling. Although black and tan was applied to non-passenger coaching stock such as tin vans and post office vehicles, there were very few wagon-styled vehicles finished in this scheme - just a couple of the ex-GNR planked bogie vans. As far as I am aware, no horseboxes received black and tan livery.

Instead, the remaining GSWR diagram 103 and similar GSR horse boxes being overhauled and repainted were finished in the light grey livery applied to wagons at this time. Unlike the wagons, they retained black underframes, as seen in these IRRS photos. However, the ends were definitely the same light grey as the sides (unlike the light green livery which had black ends).

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53527469213

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511614184/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570653133

Several of the horseboxes in these photos have had the groom's window boarded up or painted over. None carry any CIE logo and the lettering may just be the running numbers, though even those are not obvious in these photos.

I imagine that these horseboxes were repainted in the 1962-1964 period, after the green livery and snail had been discontinued but before the roundel logo had been introduced. At this time, locos and carriages were being outshopped without any logos, and some wagons also had no logos. Where a logo was applied (usually on containers and road vehicles) it was a simple C.I.E. in block letters, but this was rarely used on rail vehicles. 

Post-1964 the horsebox fleet was into a terminal decline and it's hard to imagine many overhauls and repaints being completed. 

Two photos from this period appear in books showing long rakes of horseboxes in use:

• Irish Steam in the 1960s (Natzio) p108 shows a rake of about 15 vehicles in 1962, in colour but reflections off the wagon sides make it hard to tell whether they are green or grey.
• Rails Through North Kerry (Beaumont/Carse) p63 shows another rake of about 15 vehicles in 1969, in monochrome but they are probably in light grey livery. 

I haven't yet found a clear photo of a horsebox in grey carrying any logo, or even the XP lettering. It's possible that this combination did exist.

 

As ever, when you start doing research there are a few oddballs that crop up. This super photo by Ernie is dated September 1960 when the light green livery was in vogue. C217 had been repainted earlier that year and still looks reasonably fresh. Immediately behind the loco is a diagram 103 horsebox, looking very tatty.

At first glance it looks grey on both sides and ends, but I wouldn't have expected the grey livery to be introduced until early 1962, and even if it was a bit earlier the vehicle wouldn't have got so tatty by 1960.

If it was light green, its paint job would only be a few years old so should still look fairly fresh, It should also have black ends which are not evident. This doesn't seem a plausible option.

My best guess is that this was actually painted dark green a decade earlier, and the paint job has faded and peeled so badly that it looks tatty grey all over.

Look on the left-hand side of the same photo and we see a sleeping car which may also be extremely faded dark green, looking grey. Again, I think the date is too early for this to have been painted grey.

I'm open to other explanations!

 

I'm nearly there with my horsebox diatribe now. I do plan a post on the way that horseboxes were used, but it requires a bit more research.

Thanks to all who have contributed to the story and please feel free to add more photos/info/questions.

 

I'll finish with links to a couple of IRRS photos of horseboxes that I've considered 'out of scope'...

narrow gauge 1T: 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511708260/

north of the border UTA 199:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54253017991

If anyone has more knowledge of, or interest in, the narrow gauge and/or northern horse box types, feel free to add to this thread.

 

I started this with no intention of modelling a horsebox. I might be tempted now, if a kit were to appear!

[jhb171achill]

The grey one behind the green “A” is indeed grey. I have seen other pics which suggest at least some were grey (ends included, as per wagon livery).

I have no idea how long ago that started.

[Mol_PMB]

Horsebox Usage

A horsebox was very much a 'first class' form of livestock transport. They would typically be used to transport racehorses, prime breeding stock, hunts, and the personal mounts of the well-off portions of society. 

More mundane agricultural horses would more likely travel in a cattle wagon, if indeed they travelled by rail at all. 

Horseboxes might also be used to carry other valuable livestock such as prize bulls.

For use with hunts, some horseboxes had dog compartments for the hounds.

They could also act as vacuum-fitted goods vans that could run in passenger and mail trains for urgent perishable consignments. In GB they were used for fruit and vegetable traffic where there was a large volume to move to market quickly in a short harvesting season (such as the broccoli crop). I'm not sure if they were used in this way in Ireland.

 

Looking at photos of horseboxes in Ireland in CIE days, they fall into several main categories:

• Individual horseboxes attached to passenger or mail trains
• Whole block trains of horseboxes associated with horse races or major fairs
• Horseboxes stabled, often in short rakes, at locations likely to generate horse traffic (e.g. racecourses)

There may also have been special trains for hunts comprising several horseboxes and one or more coaches. I'm not sure if this was common practice in Ireland.

 

So as a modeller, you can certainly model one horsebox and add it to almost any passenger or mail train. Normally the horsebox would be at either the back or the front of the train, to minimise the shunting required. Here's one at the back:

From Ernie, here's one at the front:

It can even be 'tail traffic' on a railcar set as seen in this photo from Ernie's collection:

 

Horse-racing and horse breeding have been important activities in Ireland for many years, and many of the racecourses and fair/show locations were served by sidings at nearby stations or even on their own branch lines. Some of these were quite extensive. @Wexford70 posted some impressive views of the RDS sidings upthread, and here's another taken from the NLI archive https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000731325. Dated 1954, this gives an idea of the traffic levels associated with a major event:

Even as late as 1969, a block train of 15 horseboxes could still be run - see Rails Through North Kerry (Beaumont/Carse) p63 for an example serving the races at Listowel.

So if you're a modeller that really likes horseboxes or horses, you can run a whole train of them if you wish.

 

Locations near racecourses tended to have a siding with a few horseboxes in, to be ready for any traffic that might need them. When looking for horsebox photos, Limerick Junction is always a good place to start. We've seen several photos of horseboxes there upthread, and here are some more from the NLI archive.

https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000308419 dated 1966:

https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000307507  dated 1968:

https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000303730 dated 1958

 

Mullingar was another place that often had a rake of horseboxes, again the NLI archive has some photos of them at the platform where horseboxes and cattle wagons were cleaned out.

https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000304250 and https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000304253 both dated 1959:

Of course Mullingar attracted old wagons for other reasons, and here's a horsebox awaiting the axe in 1958:

https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000303853

 

This photo of Ernie's shows a train being shunted, comprising 5 horseboxes and a couple of carriages. This is the sort of formation that might be used for a hunt special, but equally it might illustrate a shunt move.

 

Hopefully that will give some ideas as to how pre-1973 modellers could include one or more horseboxes on their layout. All we need now is a few more horsebox models!

JM Design has already produced a very nice etched kit for the older type of MGWR horsebox.

Leslie has been dropping hints about a future Provincial Wagons horsebox, and it's something Enda might consider as a future project too.

There may well be some RTR or kit horseboxes representing GB prototypes that are similar enough to pass for an Irish horsebox if repainted. I haven't looked at this option in great detail yet, but many had a similar arrangement and styling.

[Mol_PMB]

On models, I am considering the possibility of modifying an etched brass kit for a GCR horsebox into one of the WLWR vehicles. There are considerable similarities in appearance, and the way the kit is designed lends itself to altering some of the more obvious differences.

There's another good photo showing a WLWR horsebox in The Waterford, Limerick & Western Railway (Shepherd) p119:

Some info on the kit:

https://www.brassmasters.co.uk/gcr_horsebox.htm

https://www.steve-banks.org/modelling/131-gcr-horse-boxes

Might make for an interesting and probably unique model. 

One of these survived until 1964, one of the last of the smaller horseboxes in traffic.

 

[jhb171achill]

Barry Carse offers the following (his copyright).

It seems clear that none in light green days, or in grey days, (1963 to the end_, ever carried either a snail or roundel. Just the number.

In grey days, as grey was the wagon livery, the ends were grey too. I am not sure if this applied to the roofs too. However, probably uniquely, and as a throwback to the days when horse boxes were seen as "coaching stock", their chassis remained black. This is the only example I'm aware of with a black chassis on a grey wagon, but it is seen quite clearly in Barry's photo.

Barry and I had recently been discussing grain wagons too, and these are currently topical, so i include two he sent me of these too...

 

Edited January 18 by jhb171achill

[Mol_PMB]

Super, many thanks JHB and Barry!

it is interesting to see the 40mph [edit: actually 60mph - see posts below] speed limit stencilled on the sides and ends - quite the opposite of the XP on the green livery!

Also very interesting to have a glimpse inside number 3002, one of those built by the GSR. 
 

I have also been compiling info on the GSR grain hoppers. Trying to do too many things at once, I’ll get back to that soon. Must say that grain hoppers underframe looks suspiciously black… 

Edited January 19 by Mol_PMB
marked in text

[Flying Snail]

This is another great resource that you've pulled together @Mol_PMB - incredibly thorough.

I don't know where you find the time for all the research, but I'm glad you do!

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

Super, many thanks JHB and Barry!

it is interesting to see the 40mph speed limit stencilled 

Must say that grain hoppers underframe looks suspiciously black… 

It does, actually - though I wouldn’t be sure. Could be a mix of rust and grime.

I think the stencil says 60…..

Edited January 18 by jhb171achill

[Mol_PMB]

7 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

I think the stencil says 60…..

You're right - there's a bit of the digit missing and I misinterpreted it when looking on the small screen. Now I've zoomed in I agree it is 60 mph. Although that seems slow by the standards of todays ICRs, it's a good deal faster than 1970s freight trains. The 1972 WTT gives a maximum of 35mph for loose-coupled trains and 50mph for fully vac-fitted liners. So the 60mph stencil is permitting the horsebox to run in passsenger trains but not the fastest expresses which could run at 75mph.

[Colonel]

Lovely stuff, again! Horseboxes  definitely fit into the parcels/npcrs for me = nice and varied train make ups.

 In amongst all the info, realised that my comment about the Sligo Leitrim WL&WR horsebox with a dog box at one end is wrong. 'Tis of course a MGW one I was thinking about. Noticed my error when both were out on Northport Quay at Canterbury on Saturday.