CIE Carriage Liveries - The Green Era

[Mol_PMB]

In this thread I will attempt to describe and illustrate the green carriage liveries applied by CIE in the 1945 to 1961 period, and which could still be seen in the mid-1960s. This will also include a brief foray into 'silver' carriage liveries which form a key part of the story too.

This is a complex subject and there is inconsistency between published sources and personal recollections. It is made more difficult because colour photographs of Irish trains in the 1940s and early 1950s are scarce, and remain uncommon into the late 1950s. Additionally, early colour films had variable sensitivity to shades of green, and many slides have deteriorated over the past 75 years. So this is a bit of a minefield and I can't promise that what I put in this thread is entirely correct. But I've done my best to cross-reference between photos, contemporary written sources (e.g. IRRS Journals, Irish Railfans News), and subsequent writings on the topic. Some preserved rolling stock with original paintwork, and some of Fry's O gauge models which were made in the 1950s, also provide useful references to colour. There is also some film and video evidence although most amateur colour film of the period is rather poor quality.

 

Before we even get to the liveries, I'd like to take an overview of the carriages in service during this period. In fact, I've analysed 1945 through to 1972, the end date being dictated by changes in the way that CIE reported their rolling stock statistics. 1972 was also the start of major changes in the fleet, with the introduction of the air-conditioned Mk2 stock and the BR heating vans, and large-scale conversion programmes of composites into bogie vans, railcars into push-pull sets etc.

I have been analysing the CIE carriage registers from 1942, 1946, 1953, 1961, 1969, later stockbooks and some listings of GNR carriages too. Thanks to all who have helped in the provision of this input data. By listing each vehicle and the years it was in traffic I have produced the colourful graph below.

You will note that I have split the fleet into:

• Coaches (passenger carrying, including dining cars etc)
• Vans (full brakes, travelling post offices etc)
• Railcars 

I have also split the bogie vehicles from the ~30' vehicles (mostly 6-wheelers, some 4-wheelers)

Other non-passenger carrying coaching stock such as horseboxes and carriage trucks have been excluded from the analysis.

Narrow gauge stock is also excluded.

I have also shown the origin of the vehicles:

• Pre-1925 (all GSR constituents) - blue
• Introduced by GSR 1925-1945 - red
• Introduced by CIE from 1945 - green
• Inherited from GNR (I have counted these from 1959 onwards irrespective of build date) - brown
• CIE and ex-GNR Railcars are all grouped together - yellow

So, what do we see here?

In the late 1940s, still in the after-effects of the 'Emergency' with shortages of fuel and materials meaning a skeleton train service and no money for new rolling stock. This was pre-nationalisation CIE. There seems to have been a cull of old carriages (mostly 30') around 1949.

CIE was nationalised in 1950 and more money became available, but with demands for improved efficiency. A fleet of diesel railcars was ordered and a carriage construction programme was begun. Material shortages remained a real problem, as did industrial action. New carriage construction was badly affected and proceeded slowly, and import of the new railcars was also blocked by striking workers. Things got better in 1953/4 and production rates increased. Delivery of new railcars and carriages allowed another cull of pre-1925 stock in the mid-1950s.

In October 1958, the GNR was split with half of the rolling stock going to CIE (since it was late in the year I've shown this in the 1959 figures). However, the UTA was prompt in closing down most of the ex-GNR network making much of the inherited rolling stock redundant. About half the ex-GNR coaches were withdrawn in 1960. Those remaining mostly dated from the 1930s, 1940s and of course the 1950s railcars (these are plotted in the yellow railcar category). 

Meanwhile, CIE also pruned its network in the late 1950s and early 1960s, and this enabled most of the pre-1925 stock to be eliminated. 

1961 was the last year that the green livery was applied, for the black and tan scheme was introduced in late 1961. The total number of carriages in 1961 was almost identical to the total a decade earlier. In 1951, only 12% of the fleet was built post-1925. But in 1961, 76% was post-1925 and 57% was built post-1950.

So the story of the green livery includes both new-builds and repaints. During this period, there were times when the same livery was applied to both categories, and other times when new-builds had a different livery from repaints of older stock. 

I have identified several versions of the green livery that were applied to many carriages, but there were other variants which were short-lived, experimental, or applied locally. You will find that there's a lot more to it than just 'Dark Green' and 'Light Green'. It's a complex story and I'm afraid I can't fully explain everything. But I'll try to present a coherent story that fits with the documentary and photographic evidence that I have reviewed. This will be a slow-burning thread as I am still working through some aspects of the research.

 

P.S. As a sense-check of my carriage analysis, I compared the annual totals I have calculated from the carriage registers against those reported in the CIE annual reports published from 1951. This isn't a perfect match and I understand some of the reasons why. I won't bore you with those details, but for the purposes of a statistical overview I'm not far off:

 

[Mol_PMB]

A little more preamble before we get to the actual liveries.

In GB in the 1920s to 1950s period, a carriage repainting interval of about 7 years was common - this was the standard used by the LMS and GWR. The SR had a policy of using a light rub-down and re-varnish rather than a full repaint, where the condition of the paintwork permitted. The LNER just used varnish on their teak stock, of course.

7 years was only ever a nominal interval, and premier high-mileage coaches might get repainted more frequently while those on a sleepy branch line might stay away from the paintshop for longer. External influences such as wartime paint/labour shortages might extend the painting interval. On the other hand, a new company name, brand or livery might be accompanied by a campaign of repaints giving a shorter interval. Considering such variations, 5-10 years painting interval would account for the vast majority, and my impression is that this would be true for CIE in the 1940s to 1960s period. Some of the documents in the IRRS Archives include details of the number of overhauls and repaints carried out at Inchicore each period, and with further analysis it may be possible to confirm the typical painting interval.

Of course, there were exceptions, such as:

• Vehicles that were modified, or repaired after accident damage, might get a partial repaint in their existing scheme even if it was outdated, or they might get an early paint job in a new scheme.
• I don't know if CIE ever adopted the 'light rub-down and re-varnish' approach, but if so this could prolong the life of an outdated livery.
• Some 'special' coaches were repainted more often - State coach 351 carried 4 different liveries in as many years in the early 1960s!

So, once a particular livery had been replaced with a new one, we would expect that the outdated livery would still be seen in traffic for about 7 years, gradually becoming scarcer until it disappeared entirely. 

 

When we see a dated photograph of a freshly-painted carriage, it's very good evidence, although we must remember that the same paint can look different depending on the undercoat, method of application, lighting conditions and the surrounding colours.

But when looking at photos of carriages that have been in traffic for some years, their appearance, colour and glossiness will have been influenced by weathering including dirt from loco exhaust or brake dust, reaction with chemicals in the atmosphere or those used for carriage cleaning, physical wear or fading from the sunshine. 

And that's even before we start to think about the sensitivity of the film to different colour shades, or how it has deteriorated over 75 years. Or indeed our individual perception of colours.

 

Nevertheless there are clues, and by studying enough sources including contemporary documents the data starts to add up. In particular, some of the paint colour changes were accompanied by a change in the style of lettering or lining, and this can be determined even when the paint is weathered or the photo is monochrome. Here's a super photo from Ernie dated July 1955, illustrating some of the green livery variants.

The 4th coach, an old GSWR vehicle, carries the first CIE livery used from 1945 to about 1950/1, dark green with 2 broad bands of eau-de-nil and fine black/white lining, 2 snails, and 1/3 class digits on the doors.

The 2nd and 5th coaches are fairly new, built by CIE in 1952, and they carry the 1950-1953 plain dark green livery with no lining or snails, and class digits 1 only. This green is sometimes described as 'bottle green', or 'dark bottle green' and may have been the same colour as the 1945 dark green. The 3rd coach, a GSWR mail van, has been repainted into the same livery.

The 1st and 6th coaches carry a lighter shade of green, with a fine eau-de-nil waist line. No snails, and no class digits on the standard class doors (still third class at the time of the photo, but shortly to become second). The 1st coach looks quite freshly repainted, and the 6th coach is almost new. They may be in the shade known as 'brilliant green'. The mid-1950s saw some experimentation with lighter green shades before what became the standard 'light green' was chosen. This period is the most challenging to research and one of the most controversial!

This photo pre-dates the final iteration of the light green livery.

 

In due course I will describe and illustrate the evolution of these different green liveries, and others, in much more detail.

There are very few colour photos of CIE carriages prior to 1956. If only the photographer of the image above had some colour film...

Fortunately, Ernie and the IRRS do have some nice colour images from the 1950s, and there are a few in the Colour-Rail collection as well as in various publications. I've been searching out photos which show multiple shades of green in one photo as this helps to eliminate some of the unknown variables.

[jhb171achill]

Superb stuff, Mol!

[Mol_PMB]

When I wrote the previous post I thought I had come across some information on carriage overhauls in the IRRS Archives last week. I've been gradually cataloguing all the documents I photographed on that frenzied Tuesday evening, and I have found several documents with relevant information.

In July 1950, in a discussion about conversion of carriages from electric to gas lighting, J.J.Johnston (assistant CME) stated that 94 carriages had received a general repair (G.R.) between 1/1/1949 and 28/2/1950, which equates to 80.5 per year. In 1950 there were 815 coaches in the fleet so this would indicate an average 10-year interval for general repairs, which is quite long but may be indicative of the shortage of money and materials at this time. One would expect that that a carriage would be repainted at G.R., but additional vehicles may have been repainted without receiving a G.R. and this would shorten the average interval of repainting.

In January 1961, a budgetary control statement gives details of the quantity of general repairs budgeted for, and those actually carried out:

Adding together the different types of coaching stock listed, the budget was for 90 vehicles and the actual number receiving general repairs and repaints was 101.

I assume this is for 12 months, but it's possible that the heading 'programme to date' indicates the financial year, starting on 1st April 1960 and in that case the figures quoted in January 1961 represent 9 months. In the latter case, the equivalent annual total would be 135. 

In 1961 there were 824 coaches so the repair interval would be 8 years or 6 years depending on whether the report covers 12 or 9 months.

Fourteen buffet cars were introduced in 1953/54, with four more in 1956. Thirteen of them received general repairs in 1960/61 when the majority would have been 7 years old. 

So I think this evidence tends to support carriages receiving a General Repair interval of about 7 years. I'm sure the vehicles would have been repainted at G.R. but in some cases additional repaints might have been carried out between G.R. especially when new liveries were being introduced. The influence of new-build stock should also be considered - this would appear in the new livery without being in the maintenance records, replacing older coaches withdrawn probably without a recent repaint.

 

One other snippet from the article 'Modern CIE Coaching Stock' by G. Kennedy, published in IRRS Journal 37, 1965:

"Drab the bottle green may have been, but as late as 1957 some of the 1951 compos were observed looking little the worse for their long absence from the paint-shop." 

In other words, the new stock introduced in 1951 was still carrying its original paint job 6 years later.

 

Going back to the budgetary control statement, the railcars were mostly delivered in 1953/54, and it's notable that 26 of these received body general repairs, with a further two receiving a 'paint and trim' repair. Again, these would have been 7 years old in 1960/61.

However, I should also note that the railcars had more frequent repairs to their engines, transmission and bogies. In the archives there are some quite detailed records from the 1950s of which railcars received mechanical / general repairs, when and why. Poor availability for service seems to have encouraged this detailed assessment. The railcars also had more than their fair share of collisions and fire damage which required bodywork repairs and a full or partial repaint. I have not yet fully analysed this data and I may need to revisit that file in the archives.

 

Sorry, I'm on still on statistics and haven't got to paint shades yet!

But this stuff is important when we start to look at the livery changes and how long old liveries may have persisted in service after they had been superseded in the paint shop.

 

[Mol_PMB]

While you're waiting for me to get my finger out and write some more posts, here's a short interlude.

 

[Mol_PMB]

Inherited Livery: GSR Maroon

When CIE was formed at the start of January 1945 in a doomed attempt to resolve the financial crisis at the GSR, it was still wartime across much of the world and Ireland had been suffering from desparate shortages of fuel and materials for 5 years. Railway services had been reduced to a skeleton timetable, some lines were closed entirely and at times even the main lines only had 3 or 4 passenger trains each week. Scarce resources were focused on moving indigenous fuel and foodstuffs. Fuel shortages remained a problem into the late 1940s, especially during the severe winter of 1947. 

Material shortages, particularly steel, continued into the 1950s. An example of these challenges is that in 1947, the board approved a £40,000 investment to fit electric lighting to 105 gas-lit coaches, but it took until late 1948 to procure the materials (dynamos, batteries etc.) and by the end of 1949 only 6 carriages had been converted. 

With little money and shortages of materials, the GSR and then CIE had struggled to maintain their carriages in the 1940s, but conversely fewer carriages were needed owing to the very limited service being offered at the time.

As Ireland began to return to normality, there was a carriage maintenance backlog to overcome to provide a fleet to operate the trains.

In the late 1940s there still wasn't much money or steel to build new vehicles, so CIE initially focused on repairing and repainting their old carriages. Contemporary records state that 94 coaches were repaired between 1/1/1949 and 28/2/1950, equivalent to about 80 each year. It would have taken a decade to refurbish the whole fleet at that rate. 

Consequently, in the first few years of CIE operation, the GSR livery was still very much in evidence. So although this is thread on CIE liveries, I'll start with a few illustrations of the GSR livery in CIE days. I'm not going to describe this in detail as I haven't researched it, and I think it has been well described elsewhere. Here's a photo of GSR 1335 when it was operating with the RPSI and restored to GSR livery:

https://www.steamtrainsireland.com/rpsi-collection/48/1335-corridor-third

The 1940s GSR livery was very similar to the contemporary LMS livery - although by the late 1940s it was faded and worn. A rare colour illustration dated July 1947 is included in Irish Railways in Colour vol 2 (Ferris) page 31, copied below. Two and a half years into the life of the new CIE, and the majority of the train remains in tatty GSR maroon; only a couple of vehicles are in the new green livery which I will describe in the next post.

Looking at photos from the 1940s, there isn't an obvious order of priority for the repaints. Obscure vehicles like stores vans could be repainted years ahead of relatively modern bogie coaches. 

These two IRRS photos dated March 1948 shows one of the 1930s GSR coaches still in GSR maroon (same scheme as the RPSI coach pictured above), while a couple of 6-wheel vans carry the new scheme:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507880537

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507976717

Here a GSWR bogie coach is still in GSR colours in 1948:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508746631

Some of the 'Special' coaches seem to have been a long way down the queue for repaints, perhaps a reflection of the austere times. Here are the MGWR saloon 346 and the GSWR inspection car still in GSR livery in 1948: 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507880577

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509173735

Tea car 74D was certainly in use in the 1950s and wasn't withdrawn until 1962, but is seen here in tatty GSR livery in CIE days, apparently '1950s'.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509025733

In the late 1940s there were rows of carriage rotting away at Inchicore (and elsewhere) still in the remnants of GSR livery, and I suspect that these were withdrawn in the cull of 1949 (see first post) and never received CIE livery.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507775092

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508664186

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508838758

 

In the next post I'll get onto the first proper CIE livery.

 

Note: I'll be linking to a lot of IRRS Flickr photos in this thread, because it's by far the largest source of old photos of Irish railways. To illustrate what I need to, it is hard to find alternatives in many cases. You need to be an IRRS member to see the IRRS Flickr archive, and I would highly recommend it. Apologies to those who aren't members, you won't be able to see many of the linked images. 

[Georgeconna]

Wow lovely shot of Cobh

[Westcorkrailway]

https://ifiarchiveplayer.ie/monsignor-reid-collection-castlerea-train-station/

 

 

GSR coaches in 1947 on IFI player 

 

there is also some colour photos of GSR coaches late into CIE era on the C&L system 

 

 

[Mol_PMB]

CIE was formed in 1945 by merging the GSR with DUTC (which operated Dublin's buses) and the DUTC livery and logo were adopted for CIE. So perhaps it's appropriate to start with some contemporary DUTC buses to introduce CIE's first livery. The DUTC livery was predominantly dark green, with bands of a lighter green known as 'Eau de Nil' (water of the Nile) which I'll be abbreviating to EdN in this thread.

Here's a great photo by Neil Smith on Flickr showing a preserved 1940s DUTC bus: 

Here's another photo from https://irishbuses.ie/100-years-of-buses-in-dublin/ showing the same bus amongst some others. One of the features of the dark green used in this livery is that its apparent 'warmth' is very dependent on the lighting. In sunshine it can look rich and warm, whereas in dull light it looks more blue and cold. The same is true of carriages painted in this livery.

If we zoom in on Neil's photo, we can see that there are some other colours in the scheme. The EdN band is edged with black lining, and then a thin white line. Meanwhile, the flying snail logo is edged in gold. These same details were also used on the rail version:

 

The very first edition of the IRRS Journal was published in June 1947 and included the following paragraph:

No new coaching stock has appeared owing to the shortage of materials, so work has chiefly consisted in reconditioning and repairing the present stock. Large numbers of coaches have been painted in two shades of green (these include the former Pullmans) and some have been provided with new upholstery in pleasing shades of old rose for first class and orange for third class.

 

In the late 1940s and early 1950s, colour film was extremely expensive and beyond the means of most railway photographers. It was also prone to deterioration over time. So it's hard to find good colour photos of this livery in railway use. 

Scroll up a few posts and you'll find a link to the train scenes in the film 'The Quiet Man' which provides the best contemporary colour evidence of this livery on railway carriages. The film was released in 1952 and I assume it was filmed the previous summer, when this livery was widespread. A major movie would have used good quality colour film, but there may well have been some additional lighting used which could influence the apparent shades of green. Nevertheless it's a good source. Look closely at these stills and you'll see the EdN band edged with black, and then a fine white line spaced a short distance away, just like on the bus:

This colour photo from Trainiac on Flickr is dated July 1950, but the visible side of the coaches isn't very well lit. The leading coach is one of the 1930s GSR coaches similar to those we saw previously in GSR livery.

Ernie's collection on Flickr includes a better-lit shot of a 6-wheeler dated 3 August 1953. Note that the van behind is in a filthy version of the same livery.

This photo appeared on the front cover of IRRS journal 112, dated '1950s', but has an odd colour cast:

The book 'Irish Traction in Colour' (Huntriss) includes two photos of the same train dated September 1958, including a very late survivor in this early livery:

Note the contrasting shade of green compared to the other coach in the rake. We'll come to that later!

Again from Ernie, and on the W&T section the former Clayton twin carriages are about to be withdrawn in April 1956, still carrying the first CIE livery:

Again from Ernie, this photo of a rake of withdrawn 6-wheelers may be as late as 1960 and the carriage just right of centre still bears its 1940s livery. The weathering of this livery seems inconsistent - some (like the Claytons above) seem to have got darker, whereas others (like this 6-wheeler) seem to have faded:

Another faded vehicle is this sleeping car, converted around 1947 and painted in this scheme, and still retaining it a decade later. The adjacent vehicle is in a later, lighter green scheme.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511443501

 

That's all I've got for colour photos of this late 1940s livery, hopefully others will chip in with some more as @Westcorkrailway kindly did with the GSR.

My next post will give some more details of this livery including the colours, lining, lettering and logo layout on a variety of coaches. I'll illustrate that with the much more numerous monochrome images.

 

[Westcorkrailway]

 

GSR red coach (very worn) at ballinamore

 

 

[Mol_PMB]

Richard Maclachlan at the IRRS has digitised a large number of drawings and documents from the archives and has made some of these available for purchase in electronic format. One of his documents is DCD 006.1 CIE Rolling Stock Painting and Lining Schedules.pdf and this contains several useful drawings relating to this late 1940s CIE livery. I won't reproduce those here and I would encourage you to support Richard's ongoing work by buying a download if you are interested.

Dated 18th November 1946, drawing 26850 shows the 'flying snail' transfer for carriage stock in EdN with gold edging. The overall height of the EdN portion is 14", with a 1/4" gold line outside that on the circular portion. The 'wings' have a 1/8" gold edging.

Drawing number 268?? (last two digits illegible) shows the other transfers for carriage stock. Some of these are for the interior, and others are for NPCCS, but the relevant ones for the carriage exterior are:

• Class digits 1, 3: 12" high EdN with 1/8" gold edging
• GUARD: : 2.5" high EdN with 1/16" gold edging
• Vehicle numbers: 2.5" high dark green with 1/8" gold edging
• Number suffix letters: 1.5" high dark green with 1/8" gold edging
• Tare weight numbers, fractions and T: 2" high EdN

The drawing also notes 'Eau-de-Nil to BSS 381C 1948 No 216' which looks right:

Note that while transfers were used for the lettering, the lining was hand-painted. The shade of EdN on the transfers does not always exactly match the painted bands of EdN, even when new and especially when faded.

The reason that the vehicle numbers are in dark green is that they were applied on top of the EdN waist band.

 

Although dark green is mentioned several times on the transfer drawing, the precise shade is not given.

Colour matching to surviving examples of the dark green paint by IRM and @jhb171achill showed that it was a good match to RAL 150 30 30, and I agree this looks a good match. This is the thread:

https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/8724-ral-numbers-for-authentic-railway-liveries/

RAL colour standards are of German origin and have developed over time; back in the 1940s 'RAL 150 30 30' was meaningless and Irish or British paint manufacturers would probably not have recognised the earlier RAL descriptions.

The drawing gives the EdN colour reference according to British Standard BS 381C 1948, so it's reasonably likely that the dark green was also chosen from BS 381C 1948. That standard has many greens but the only ones that are close are the following shades: 226, 227, 276, 277:  

     

https://www.rawlinspaints.com/content/british-standard-381c#_Toc15638682

It is also possible that the dark green was chosen from the earlier Colour Council (CC) or British Colour Council (BCC) ranges, which were referenced as the basis of CIE's later 1961 livery. Those standards gave the following dark greens:

• Bottle green CC 107, BCC 25
• Cossack green BCC 105 (equivalent to BS 276 Lincoln green)
• Ivy green CC 252 
• Mallard Green CC 102 (equivalent to BS 226 Mid Brunswick green)
• Thistle Green CC 257 (equivalent to BS 227 Deep Brunswick green)

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.14074/page/n31/mode/2up?q=green

It's hard to find comprehensive colour charts for these old colours online. However, BS 226, BS 227 and BS 276 all have equivalents in the older standard.

Note that all the standards also include lighter shades of Brunswick green and we may come across those much later in the thread...

 

I ordered a tin of CIE green from Phoenix Precision Paints, which arrived labelled 'P892 Tank Green (Dull)'. It's a dark, slightly bluish green that I would place close to BS381C 227 Deep Brunswick Green.

I would say it's a reasonable representation for CIE dark green on a dullish day.

If you want a slightly warmer shade as seen on a sunny day, then Humbrol 3 is a good bet, maybe a fraction too light. 

A mix of the two could be ideal, assuming they don't curdle!

 

[Mol_PMB]

Now, looking at the application of the lining and lettering. Again I'm relying heavily on the IRRS photos here. 

This 6-wheel brake composite shows most of the main elements.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509203855

• At the waist is a band of EdN, edged in black, then a small gap of the underlying dark green, then a fine white line. 
• At the cantrail is a broader band of EdN, which on most vehicles goes right up to the top of the side. The lower edge of it has the black/green/white edging, same as the waist.
• The class digits are on every passenger door, either 1 or 3.
• On a 6-wheeler, usually one snail near the middle.
• The GUARD label is set below the waist band.
• The running number is at the right-hand end of the waist band, dark green on the EdN band.

Here's a gangwayed bogie coach as another example:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508776551

The livery elements are the same, and we can see the running number a bit more clearly here. Bogie coaches usually had two snails spaced at roughly 1/3 and 2/3 positions. Usually the snail was placed in the centre of a panel or under the centre of a window. This asymmetric coach has forced unusual positions for the snails:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508909923

 

On 6-wheelers, if there was a door in the middle, then the snail would be placed to one side, but centred in a panel like this:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53506934694

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507782217

 

This bogie compartment coach shows just how many transfers were needed when there were lots of doors!

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508744101

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509091095

 

Here are a few more examples:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507982732

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507782292

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507783152

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507855512

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508749006

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508749091

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508772881

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511332328

 

Although the running number was placed near the right hand end, it was not put on doors. The door locations on these coaches have forced the running number to be further along:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508746391

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508746831

 

Dining cars did not have a class designation on the doors, nor did they have any lettering such as 'buffet' 'diner', or 'staff only'.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507855727

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509170280

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509199030

This tea car had the catering portion at the left-hand end (with classless door) and the right-hand end of the carriage was a normal third class saloon:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509172565

 

Ambulance cars were also anonymous:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509093119

 

Mail vans and TPOs carried the post office lettering, and if fitted with a mailbox that carried the appropriate instructions:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507880537

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507981522

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508748391

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508748866

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509172140

 

Departmental vans and sleeping cars were also outshopped in this livery, and these usually did have extra lettering to describe their purpose. Their number was also in EdN on a dark green background, rather than on the waist band:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508772891

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509093334

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507984227/

 

On the end, at the corner near the running number, the tare weight of the carriage was applied in small EdN numerals, as seen here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53499187525

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507885547

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509191254

 

My understanding is that the underframe and ends were painted black initially, though they would become discoloured with brownish brake dust and rail dirt.

The roofs were tarred canvas which was also nominally black, although it would weather to a dark grey.

The sides were in theory cleaned more often, but the contrast between these two carriages shows that it didn't always happen:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509173865

 

Hopefully that gives you enough info to put the transfers in the right place!

 

[Mol_PMB]

I forgot to add the photos of Fry's models, as contemporary examples of this livery. Note how he has painstakingly replicated the black and white lines bordering the EdN bands, and the gold outlines on the snails and class digits:

[lucas]

According to this post a couple years ago from @jhb171achill the correct dark green is BS 226 Mid Brunswick Green:

On 1/3/2018 at 12:10 AM, jhb171achill said:

I have been put in touch with a gentleman named Derek Farrelly, who some of you may know.

Derek has very kindly given me the reference numbers for the authentic green used by CIE on buses and road lorries 1945-62, on such steam locos as were green, and on coaching stock until 1955.

The references are:

Dark green (body colour) -  BS 381C 226

Light green ("eau-de-nil" for lining) -  BS 381C 216

My thanks to Jim Poots for the introduction.

In an exchange of emails, I am investigating the possibility of a supply being made up in small tins for us model people - bus or rail. With growing popularity of the "grey & green" era, as well as "black'n'tan", I wonder what level of interest there may be.

If nothing else, it will solve the question of what shade is right, for those not lucky enough to remember the real thing. 

 

 

[Mol_PMB]

Ah, excellent, I’d missed that post. 
That was my preferred option from the BS381C colours. 

So, BS381C 226 Mid Brunswick Green is confirmed for the dark green. 

It also helps to confirm that BS381C was the standard being used at that time. That will become useful in due course…

[GSR 800]

25 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

Ah, excellent, I’d missed that post. 
That was my preferred option from the BS381C colours. 

So, BS381C 226 Mid Brunswick Green is confirmed for the dark green. 

It also helps to confirm that BS381C was the standard being used at that time. That will become useful in due course…

I use both Mid Brunswick and Racing Green, both of which I've found quite suitable and very similar. It often seemed to fade lighter on the locos, and its unlikely any got a repaint of green other than Maedbh after 1955, albeit without the snails (described as 'spruced up' but in poor mechanical condition during the period after dieselisation)

It's interesting, it 'seems' like the dark green got purged rapidly from rolling stock from 1955, with very few colour images of them or photos of them with the lighter green coaches, bar the example shown above. This may simply be down to many of those coaches being retired in large numbers as the newer PRs, laminates, Bredin mk2s, came online.

 

 

 

[Mol_PMB]

Thanks, that’s good to know on the paint colours. 
 

I agree that much of the older stock was purged in the mid-1950s and this would have seen off many vehicles in the late 1940s green livery with elaborate lining. 
This is why I started the thread looking at the composition of the fleet through the years to illustrate the purges. 

Also, with a repainting interval of around 7 years, coaches that had been painted in the late 1940s would be due for a repaint in the mid 1950s, so those which survived the purge would have received a new paint job then anyway. 
 

[Westcorkrailway]

Skibbereen 1945 (I.C. Boyd)

1958 Courtmacsherry (Tom Davit - IRRS collection) 

[jhb171achill]

53 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

Thanks, that’s good to know on the paint colours. 
 

I agree that much of the older stock was purged in the mid-1950s and this would have seen off many vehicles in the late 1940s green livery with elaborate lining. 
This is why I started the thread looking at the composition of the fleet through the years to illustrate the purges. 

Also, with a repainting interval of around 7 years, coaches that had been painted in the late 1940s would be due for a repaint in the mid 1950s, so those which survived the purge would have received a new paint job then anyway. 
 

A few hung on in fully lined older green livery right up to around 1960, though by that stage very few. And there was still one coach as larte as about 1956 on the Cavan and Leitrim in extremely faded GSR maroon (by now a dirty brownish pinkl!)

1 hour ago, GSR 800 said:

It's interesting, it 'seems' like the dark green got purged rapidly from rolling stock from 1955, with very few colour images of them or photos of them with the lighter green coaches, bar the example shown above. This may simply be down to many of those coaches being retired in large numbers as the newer PRs, laminates, Bredin mk2s, came online.

That's exactly it. No carriages would have been repainted dark green with full lining after 1955, though it seems that a handful of West Clare vehicles, at least one West Cork coach, and possibly a handful of Cork's large fleet of secondary stock received a coat of plain dark green on or about then. As you say, large scale withdrawals of old stock took place around then.

[Westcorkrailway]

24 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

That's exactly it. No carriages would have been repainted dark green with full lining after 1955, though it seems that a handful of West Clare vehicles, at least one West Cork coach, and possibly a handful of Cork's large fleet of secondary stock received a coat of plain dark green on or about then. As you say, large scale withdrawals of old stock took place around then.

Steady now JB, could you be persuaded to say that more then just West Clare/ Cork stock got that plain unlined green!

Edited 6 hours ago by Westcorkrailway