Cork, Blackrock & Passage pre-1900 (5'3" gauge)

[Mol_PMB]

I've is busy at present as I'm away from home a lot with no time for modelling. But after a recent discussion which touched on the railway stations of Cork, I have spent a few odd moments looking at the two termini of the broad gauge Cork, Blackrock and Passage Railway. These don't get much coverage in the normal Irish Railway books, as the first was abandoned in the 1870s and the second regauged to 3' in 1900 and then abandoned in 1932 - nearly a century ago. However, the buildings themselves both long outlasted the railways.

I just thought I'd jot down a few links and bits of information in this thread in case anyone else was interested. Please feel free to add more on the topic, ideally keeping to the pre-1900 broad gauge theme.

A proposal for a railway from Cork to Passage was first made in the 1830s. This map shows the entire route, running on the south bank of the river. At the city end it is shown going further west than the line actually built, and terminating where the City Hall is now:

1836 Cork–Passage Proposed Railway - Cork Past & Present

The line as actually built in 1850 followed a similar route but terminated east of Victoria Road, at a station known as City Park or Victoria Road. There are a couple of maps from 1852 and 1872 here which show the location:

The Catholic Heritage Association of Ireland: Back on the Rails II - All Rails Lead To Cork

Also here:

View map: Ordnance Survey of Ireland, Cork Sheet 74 (St. Finbar's;Inishkenny;Carrigaline;St. Anne's, Shandon;Caherlag;Carrigrohane;St. Nic... - Ordnance Survey Six-inch Ireland, 1829-1969

 

Colm Creedon's research notes available on the Cork Local Studies website include some more detailed plans of the City Park terminus

Cork, Blackrock and Passage Railway 1850 - 1932: digital format · Cork Local Studies Digital Archive

Colm Creedon also found a couple of external photos of the buildings in 1878 and 1932 (both after it had been closed as a railway station) and they can also be seen in the document linked above. The station building including the train shed remained as part of the mill complex built around it, at least into the 1930s. I imagine that many of these plans and photos are reproduced to a better quality in Colm Creedon's book on the CB&PR, but that book is hard to find.

 

In the early 1870s about 2km of the western end of the line was realigned further south, to free the river bank for development of quays and industries. A new terminus was built alongside Albert Road, about 200m south-west of the original, and it opened in 1873. At this stage the line was still 5'3" gauge. Colm Creedon's notes (linked above) include trackplans of this station in its broad gauge days; there was also a siding towards the mills on the quay.

This map shows the realigned route:

View map: Ordnance Survey of Ireland, Cork - Sheet 74 (includes: St. Finbar's;Inishkenny;Carrigaline;St. Anne's, Shandon;Caherlag;Carrigro... - Ordnance Survey Six-inch Ireland, 1829-1969

I think the 25-inch map at this location shows the broad gauge era at Albert Street, though the track layout may be simplified:

Irish Townland and Historical Map Viewer

I don't think there was ever a link line between the CB&PR and the Bandon or Macroom lines. And the CB&PR was regauged well before the Cork City Railway was constructed.

When the line was regauged to 3' in 1900, the Albert Street station was re-used, but with a very different layout of tracks and platforms. The building still exists today, though probably threatened with re-development.

 

There are several photos of the broad-gauge locos - there were three, all 2-2-2Ts. Here are 3 images:

No.2 - 2-2-2WT - built 1850 by Sharp Bros & Co., W… - THE CORK, BLACKROCK & PASSAGE RAILWAY - transportsofdelight

No.1 - 2-2-2WT - built 1850 by Sharp Bros & Co., W… - THE CORK, BLACKROCK & PASSAGE RAILWAY - transportsofdelight

No.2 - 2-2-2WT - built 1850 by Sharp Bros & Co., W… - THE CORK, BLACKROCK & PASSAGE RAILWAY - transportsofdelight

There are a couple more photos in Colm Creedon's notes that may also be published elsewhere, but so far I've only found about 6 images of the line in broad gauge days. Good views of the other rolling stock seem non-existent.

That's what I've found so far but I may do some more research.

 

I was idly wondering whether it might make an interesting 'what-if' layout imagining the scenario that it remained 5'3" gauge and thrived into the early 1960s and perhaps beyond - a busy but small city suburban terminus.

[Flying Snail]

The National Museum of Ireland also have a photographic reproduction of a photograph from the Locomotive Magazine, Engine number 1, C.B. and P.R. Sharp single tank engine No. 1.

https://www.museum.ie/collections/collection/object-159691/?return=%2Fcollections%2Fcollection%2F%3Flimit%3D100%26page%3D3%26term%3Drailway%26media%3Dyes

edit: it appears to be a reproduction of the same photo as the transportsofdelight one linked above

Edited Wednesday at 08:30 by Flying Snail

[Mol_PMB]

12 minutes ago, Flying Snail said:

The National Museum of Ireland also have a photographic reproduction of a photograph from the Locomotive Magazine, Engine number 1, C.B. and P.R. Sharp single tank engine No. 1.

https://www.museum.ie/collections/collection/object-159691/?return=%2Fcollections%2Fcollection%2F%3Flimit%3D100%26page%3D3%26term%3Drailway%26media%3Dyes

edit: it appears to be a reproduction of the same photo as the transportsofdelight one linked above

Nice - thank you. 

It's interesting that the three locos seem to have ended up different to each other. 

No.1 and No.2 had flat sides to the cab, but No.2 had a small saddle tank added.

No.3 had a wider upper cab, and a different style of buffer.

All these photos show the locos fitted with vacuum brakes, so I assume they are from the latter years of broad gauge operation (1890s)

I also found these:

(from https://oldphotosofcork.files.wordpress.com/2020/05/98195547_2891388294291418_8321570423867179008_o.jpg)

 

Plus Colm Creedon's notes (linked in my first post) include a photo of a train at Passage in 1897, and another photo of No.2 with its saddle tank.

[Flying Snail]

There's also a faded picture of a bridge and the permanent way on the National Library's website in the Joshua H. Hargrave Collection. Not sure if its 5' 3" or 3' - I think its the former, but someone more knowledgeable can confirm:

https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000289089

 

Edited Wednesday at 08:57 by Flying Snail

[Rob R]

Not at home at the moment but there are large scale OS "Town Plans" (50 inch?) covering both termini and a nice view in the NLI collection of Passage in later days showing the remains of the BG station. Will dig them out when I get home.

Also have, from Flickr I think, a couple of photos of what is said to be a  bg CB&PR coach body.

I believe several coaches were sold on to other lines so views "may" turn up one day.

[Mol_PMB]

A few useful links on the early history here:

Cork Blackrock & Passage Railway

5c. On Track, Cork & its Railway Heritage | Cork Heritage

Map of the Cork City Railway, with Albert St station at C and the former Victoria Road (City Park) station roughly where the word 'Marina' is. The lines shown onto Victoria Wharf weren't installed until long after the CB&PR was converted to 3' gauge. 

 

Image 9 in this lot (I can't seem to get the link to work direct to image 9) shows an aerial view with the CBPR approaches to Cork visible:

https://digital.corkpastandpresent.com/Documents/Detail/aerial-photographs-of-cork-city-and-crookhaven/105267?item=105277

Some of the other images also show the same area. Image 13 is a good one too. By the date of these images the Victoria Road station had been demolished to make way for new mill buildings, and the Albert Street station had closed and been converted for other use. 

 

[Mol_PMB]

The former Victoria Road / City Park station:

[Mol_PMB]

This page has a nice photo of the original station too: 9. The Old Railway Line | Cllr. Kieran McCarthy

http://kieranmccarthy.ie/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/9b.-Cork-Blackrock-and-Passage-Railway-Company-Terminus-Cork-South-Docks-c.1860-now-demolished-900x759.jpg

Note the water tank visible in the right background which is shown on the NLS map:

 

Edited Wednesday at 12:05 by Mol_PMB

[Colin R]

While I am more into the 3ft gauge version, I should say that anything to do with the Broad gauge days I also find interesting. Of all the railways in Ireland, I find it sad that the CB&PR as a whole has not had that much information published about it.  

[Rob R]

Publish and be damned time.

I haven't saved any of the links for this stuff but it has all been gleaned off the interweb somewhere.

Cork first station.

 

Second Cork Station.

Edited Wednesday at 13:35 by Rob R
better photo substituted

[Rob R]

Passage.

[Mol_PMB]

The three 2-2-2T locos were built by Sharp Brothers in Manchester. 

The firm Sharp, Roberts & Co was formed in 1826 in Manchester, operating the Globe Works and the Atlas Works. Amongst other things, they built steam locos including 'Hibernia' for the Dublin & Kingstown Railway in 1834.

In 1837 they introduced a new design of 2-2-2 loco, no doubt with significant influence from their draughtsman Charles Beyer (later a founder of Beyer Peacock). About 600 of these 'Sharpie' 2-2-2s were built over the following 20 years for railways around the world - whilst they varied in dimensions, the basic design was consistent and successful. 

In 1843 the partnership with Roberts was dissolved; the Atlas Works was thereafter run by Sharp Brothers with Charles Beyer as chief engineer. This factory was on Oxford St and Great Bridgewater St, close to Manchester Oxford Road station. In this period their production of 2-2-2s included the first 20 locos for the GS&WR, as well as the 2-2-2WTs for the CB&PR.

In 1852 the firm was renamed Sharp, Stewart & Co, continuing in the same business and building 2-2-2s, later also larger locos. Beyer left in 1853 to form his own firm with Peacock. Sharp, Stewart relocated from Manchester to Glasgow in 1888.

Although built 16 years after the CB&PR locos, this Sharp Stewart 2-2-2WT for the Furness Railway has a lot in common with its Irish cousins:

(Photo from Historical Railway Images on Flickr)

Sharp, Roberts and Co - Graces Guide

Sharp Brothers and Co - Graces Guide

Sharp, Stewart and Co - Graces Guide

 

[Rob R]

Bridge photo posted earlier - better version.

HMRS 35344: 2-2-2WT - 5ft 6ins Diameter Wheels

HMRS CBPR loco

This drawing doesn't have a thumbnail on the HMRS website yet but the digital scan is available, just message them.

I won't post it here for copyright reasons but it is a good readable GA drawing

[Rob R]

The Grifiths Valuation maps are quite useful for early lines, although the tracks are not shown other useful features are such as buildings, turntables and sometimes signals.

Griffiths Valuation Maps

Edited Wednesday at 14:06 by Rob R

[Mol_PMB]

Straying a little from Ireland, there is a working replica Sharpie 2-2-2 in Denmark. It's a tender loco rather than a well tank, but otherwise similar to the CB&PR locos:

[Northroader]

Those Sharp well tanks with outside frames are pretty damn gorgeous engines. There were another two which could be very similar on the Dublin and Belfast Junction, working the Banbridge line, absorbed into the GNR.

[Killian Keane]

Manchester South junction and Altrincham Railway no.1, built 1849, a very close relative to the CB&PR tanks

The GS&WR had tender versions as their express passenger fleet at the time (note the earlier cast style dome), along with the Bury Curtis and Kennedy locos; 

 

...Just for fun, the original engines of the Jamaica Railway were outside cylinder versions;

All the above of course built by the Sharp Brothers /Sharp Roberts/ Sharp Stewart

[Westcorkrailway]

15 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

I've is busy at present as I'm away from home a lot with no time for modelling. But after a recent discussion which touched on the railway stations of Cork, I have spent a few odd moments looking at the two termini of the broad gauge Cork, Blackrock and Passage Railway. These don't get much coverage in the normal Irish Railway books, as the first was abandoned in the 1870s and the second regauged to 3' in 1900 and then abandoned in 1932 - nearly a century ago. However, the buildings themselves both long outlasted the railways.

I just thought I'd jot down a few links and bits of information in this thread in case anyone else was interested. Please feel free to add more on the topic, ideally keeping to the pre-1900 broad gauge theme.

A proposal for a railway from Cork to Passage was first made in the 1830s. This map shows the entire route, running on the south bank of the river. At the city end it is shown going further west than the line actually built, and terminating where the City Hall is now:

1836 Cork–Passage Proposed Railway - Cork Past & Present

The line as actually built in 1850 followed a similar route but terminated east of Victoria Road, at a station known as City Park or Victoria Road. There are a couple of maps from 1852 and 1872 here which show the location:

The Catholic Heritage Association of Ireland: Back on the Rails II - All Rails Lead To Cork

Also here:

View map: Ordnance Survey of Ireland, Cork Sheet 74 (St. Finbar's;Inishkenny;Carrigaline;St. Anne's, Shandon;Caherlag;Carrigrohane;St. Nic... - Ordnance Survey Six-inch Ireland, 1829-1969

 

Colm Creedon's research notes available on the Cork Local Studies website include some more detailed plans of the City Park terminus

Cork, Blackrock and Passage Railway 1850 - 1932: digital format · Cork Local Studies Digital Archive

Colm Creedon also found a couple of external photos of the buildings in 1878 and 1932 (both after it had been closed as a railway station) and they can also be seen in the document linked above. The station building including the train shed remained as part of the mill complex built around it, at least into the 1930s. I imagine that many of these plans and photos are reproduced to a better quality in Colm Creedon's book on the CB&PR, but that book is hard to find.

 

In the early 1870s about 2km of the western end of the line was realigned further south, to free the river bank for development of quays and industries. A new terminus was built alongside Albert Road, about 200m south-west of the original, and it opened in 1873. At this stage the line was still 5'3" gauge. Colm Creedon's notes (linked above) include trackplans of this station in its broad gauge days; there was also a siding towards the mills on the quay.

This map shows the realigned route:

View map: Ordnance Survey of Ireland, Cork - Sheet 74 (includes: St. Finbar's;Inishkenny;Carrigaline;St. Anne's, Shandon;Caherlag;Carrigro... - Ordnance Survey Six-inch Ireland, 1829-1969

I think the 25-inch map at this location shows the broad gauge era at Albert Street, though the track layout may be simplified:

Irish Townland and Historical Map Viewer

I don't think there was ever a link line between the CB&PR and the Bandon or Macroom lines. And the CB&PR was regauged well before the Cork City Railway was constructed.

When the line was regauged to 3' in 1900, the Albert Street station was re-used, but with a very different layout of tracks and platforms. The building still exists today, though probably threatened with re-development.

 

There are several photos of the broad-gauge locos - there were three, all 2-2-2Ts. Here are 3 images:

No.2 - 2-2-2WT - built 1850 by Sharp Bros & Co., W… - THE CORK, BLACKROCK & PASSAGE RAILWAY - transportsofdelight

No.1 - 2-2-2WT - built 1850 by Sharp Bros & Co., W… - THE CORK, BLACKROCK & PASSAGE RAILWAY - transportsofdelight

No.2 - 2-2-2WT - built 1850 by Sharp Bros & Co., W… - THE CORK, BLACKROCK & PASSAGE RAILWAY - transportsofdelight

There are a couple more photos in Colm Creedon's notes that may also be published elsewhere, but so far I've only found about 6 images of the line in broad gauge days. Good views of the other rolling stock seem non-existent.

That's what I've found so far but I may do some more research.

 

I was idly wondering whether it might make an interesting 'what-if' layout imagining the scenario that it remained 5'3" gauge and thrived into the early 1960s and perhaps beyond - a busy but small city suburban terminus.

The original plan “the Cork, Passage and Kinsale Railway” would have gone all the way to Kinsale as the name suggests. This plan was killed when the Cork and Kinsale Junction Railway got permission to build its line in the late 1850s

interestingly, this scheme had a proposed connection to the Bandon along the Owenabue Valley. You could have had halts at Ballygarvan, Five Mile, Ballinhassig and Halfway. The kinsale section probobly would have had stations for Ballymartle and Belgooly Road 

I often wonder if this line had been built, would it have served the people of Kinsale better! 

 

 

 

I have Colm’s book at home (Naturally) must see what’s in it 

Edited Wednesday at 23:26 by Westcorkrailway

[Mol_PMB]

11 hours ago, Killian Keane said:

 

Manchester South junction and Altrincham Railway no.1, built 1849, a very close relative to the CB&PR tanks

 

Here’s another view of an MSJ&A Sharpie, which appears in the Oakwood Press book on the line:

The MSJ&A line ran within 100 yards of Sharp’s Atlas Works, but there was never a rail connection to the factory. 

 

[Colin R]

Some very interesting information; it makes you wonder whether, if it had happened, the 3ft gauge conversion would have taken place. I like the idea of the railway heading for Kinsale, which opens up yet another can of worms.

Would it have been taken over by the Cork, Bandon and South Coast Railway? And if so, would they have kept two stations in Cork?

I would suggest that if the line had have been built, we might be looking at something like 26+miles of 5 ft 3 in gauge railway from Cork to Kinsale.

I wonder what sort of passenger numbers it would have generated. 

[jhb171achill]

3 hours ago, Colin R said:

 

I would suggest that if the line had have been built, we might be looking at something like 26+miles of 5 ft 3 in gauge railway from Cork to Kinsale.

I wonder what sort of passenger numbers it would have generated. 

Probably more than the unrealistically circuitous Kinsale branch that WAS built….

Edited yesterday at 15:59 by jhb171achill

[Brendan8056]

Amazing bit of research. I knew nothing about the proposed line to Kinsale. Perhaps my modelling plans will change as a result. Belgooly with a station, what a great idea. I have always thought about modelling Kinsale, but the terminus was possibly the ugliest station building, and rather large. Probably why photos of the branch when open are so rare. 

[jhb171achill]

50 minutes ago, Brendan8056 said:

Amazing bit of research. I knew nothing about the proposed line to Kinsale. Perhaps my modelling plans will change as a result. Belgooly with a station, what a great idea. I have always thought about modelling Kinsale, but the terminus was possibly the ugliest station building, and rather large. Probably why photos of the branch when open are so rare. 

The poor service levels and connections wouldn't have helped either!

[Westcorkrailway]

1 hour ago, Brendan8056 said:

Amazing bit of research. I knew nothing about the proposed line to Kinsale. Perhaps my modelling plans will change as a result. Belgooly with a station, what a great idea. I have always thought about modelling Kinsale, but the terminus was possibly the ugliest station building, and rather large. Probably why photos of the branch when open are so rare. 

Kindles building was not too bad when the full canopy was in place, but without a canopy, it does look unorthodox 

 

belgooly road station would be interesting, or a ballygarvan!