Bogie van Prototype.

[Moogie-69]

Would anyone have any photos of this bogie van ? Need to see the details of the doors.

 

Edited Saturday at 20:45 by Moogie-69

[Mol_PMB]

This might be worth a look, though it doesn't match yours exactly:

504 Guinness Grain Van

[jhb171achill]

4 hours ago, Moogie-69 said:

Would anyone have any photos of this bogie van ? Need to see the details of the doors.

 

The GNR vans were more or less those dimensions, and crucially the bogies look right, but the doors aren’t right, but the framework, and they would have had horizontal planking, not vertical (which was extremely rare in Ireland). 

[Jonathan Allen]

Or this, which shows the unconverted side: Guinness grain van - Whitehead | A bogie GNR(I) built grain … | Flickr

 

[Moogie-69]

I don't think it's a grain van as there are no chutes on the drawings.

@jhb171achill , was the framework on the doors on the outside,  I can't tell from the drawings, also to me the drawings seem to show vertical planking on the outside and horizontal on the inside,  or am I looking at it the wrong way round ?

Edited November 4 by Moogie-69

[Mol_PMB]

Have you read through the history of the GNR bogie vans on the RPSI link I sent you? These bogie vans were modified over the years. There are also lots of photos. 

It is quite possible that none were built exactly to the design in your published drawing. Is there a date associated with the drawing that you could correlate with the batches mentioned in the RPSI history? 

[Moogie-69]

8 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

Have you read through the history of the GNR bogie vans on the RPSI link I sent you? These bogie vans were modified over the years. There are also lots of photos. 

It is quite possible that none were built exactly to the design in your published drawing. Is there a date associated with the drawing that you could correlate with the batches mentioned in the RPSI history? 

From what I can find out the drawing is from the Locomotive railway carriage and wagon review magazine,  I haven't found what issue it was from yet, hoping it will give more information on when it was built and type designation.  To me the framework is too different from the Guinness van to be a modified version. 

Noel.

[Mol_PMB]

The doors on your drawing look like this:

 

There are plenty of old drawings that represent proposals that were never built. Or the design was adjusted before construction. 

[Moogie-69]

Mol_PMB,  thanks for that, I think i see what the door should look like now, the bottom section is a fold out ramp with the doors above. Just couldn't make it out in the drawings  but the photos helped greatly.

Edited November 4 by Moogie-69

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, Moogie-69 said:

 

@jhb171achill , was the framework on the doors on the outside,  I can't tell from the drawings, also to me the drawings seem to show vertical planking on the outside and horizontal on the inside,  or am I looking at it the wrong way round ?

 

The outside was horizontal. Nit sure about the inside - if there was anything vertical at all it would have to have been internal in this case. 

[Mol_PMB]

I agree that the drawing you are using shows vertical planking on the outside and horizontal planking on the inside.

But I am still not convinced that your drawing matches anything that was actually built.

The real things had horizontal planking on the outside and vertical planking on the inside - again, see the large selection of photos on the RPSI website. 

 

 

[leslie10646]

3 hours ago, Moogie-69 said:

I don't think it's a grain van as there are no chutes on the drawings.

@jhb171achill , was the framework on the doors on the outside,  I can't tell from the drawings, also to me the drawings seem to show vertical planking on the outside and horizontal on the inside,  or am I looking at it the wrong way round ?

The real thing is at WHITEHEAD, @Moogie-69, not that far from Drmore, so go and feast your eyes .......

[Mayner]

The RPSI "504 Guinness Grain Van" page includes Dundalk diagrams of the 20T Bogie Vans in original (Diagram18 1903) and bulk grain (Diiagram 19 1938) forms

https://www.steamtrainsireland.com/rpsi-collection/52/504-guinness-grain-van

 

[Moogie-69]

That looks better, think ill leave the planks vertical as in the drawings, ill just call it a prototype.

[Moogie-69]

More questions for you's.

First picture, are these something to do with the brakes or are they tension rods to brace the chassis ?

Second picture, think this is a view of the inside of the van and chassis, are these brake rods of chassis braces ?

[airfixfan]

Foxs paient refer to bogie type. The ex GNR Directors saloom has them. Few survive

[Mol_PMB]

Your drawing appears to indicate a trussed tubular frame underframe, and the parts you have indicated are part of this truss. Not the brake gear.

The real GNR bogie vans did not have this type of frame - they used a conventional channel frame and it did not have truss rods.

The tubular frame design is similar to that produced for a short period by this outfit in Barrow, Cumbria:

Advert reproduced in 'British Carriage & Wagon Builders & Repairers 1830-2006' (Sambrook). I'd take the images with more than a pinch of salt!

This firm did produce a small number of bogie wagons for Ireland, including some for the WLWR and apparently one for the T&D. Also for the English GNR and L&Y. 

 

[jhb171achill]

5 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

Your drawing appears to indicate a trussed tubular frame underframe, and the parts you have indicated are part of this truss. Not the brake gear.

The real GNR bogie vans did not have this type of frame - they used a conventional channel frame and it did not have truss rods.

The tubular frame design is similar to that produced for a short period by this outfit in Barrow, Cumbria:

Advert reproduced in 'British Carriage & Wagon Builders & Repairers 1830-2006' (Sambrook). I'd take the images with more than a pinch of salt!

This firm did produce a small number of bogie wagons for Ireland, including some for the WLWR and apparently one for the T&D. Also for the English GNR and L&Y. 

 

Very much so. 

Plus - With vertical planking, it looks South American or possibly early South African. Doesn’t look Irish at all, let alone GNR. 

[Moogie-69]

That's another one ready for the printer. If only printing and painting was as enjoyable as drawing these wagons !

[Moogie-69]

I noticed at the bottom of another set of bogie wagon drawings that they were supplied by bay a member of the GNRi staff, also it says he supplied the drawing and the one on the previous page. Look at the page numbers. To me they were either prototype drawings or they were build but there is no photos of them.

 

 

 

Edited Friday at 00:40 by Moogie-69

[jhb171achill]

2 minutes ago, Moogie-69 said:

I noticed at the bottom of another set of bogie wagon drawings that they were supplied by bay a member of the GNRi staff, also it says he supplied the drawing and the one on the previous page. Look at the page numbers. To me they were either prototype drawings or they were build but there is no photos of them.

 

 

 

Nothing remotely like that was built….. the “real” ones looked entirely different due to planking but the body shape in the drawing looks ok. 

[Mayner]

1 hour ago, Moogie-69 said:

I noticed at the bottom of another set of bogie wagon drawings that they were supplied by bay a member of the GNRi staff, also it says he supplied the drawing and the one on the previous page. Look at the page numbers. To me they were either prototype drawings or they were build but there is no photos of them.

 

 

 

 

The open looks identical to a wagon lettered T&FHC (Tralee and Fenit Harbour Comissioners) on Page 1 MOL_PMB "Considering Fenit Harbour Thread https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/17836-considering-fenit-harbour/#comment-253515.

Interesting the Tubular Frame Wagon Company selling wagons to two minor railways (one narrow one broad gauge) in Tralee.

The drawings may be manufacturers (Tubular Wagon Co) proposals for large capacity wagons for the GNR. Its possible the T&FHC open may have been built on spec/as a sample. in the hope of further orders in a similar manner to the GNR(I) and CN MAK diesels and picked up cheaply by the Tralee and Fenit

 

 

[Mol_PMB]

Info on the WLWR tubular frame wagons, from Ernie Shepherd’s book. 

I agree with John’s observations on the Fenit wagon. 
 

How do the quoted dimensions compare to your drawings?

[Mol_PMB]

The drawings definitely show the tubular underframe which was a very unusual and patented design. So I think there's little doubt that these represent the designs of the Tubular Frame Wagon Co.

They were only active in Britain from the late 1880s to 1895.

WIkipedia tells us:

Quote

Charles Clifford was locomotive superintendent of the Great Northern Railway of Ireland (GNRI) from 1895 to 1912.

The text with your drawings says he supplied them to the author, but it does not specifically say that wagons were built to these designs for the GNR.

The timeline is about right for them to be a Tubular Frame Wagon Co. proposal, but were they actually built? We know a couple were built for the WLWR and T&FHC, and lasted into the 1920s/1930s. 

The RPSI web page notes that there were two batches of bogie Guinness grain vans (not with tubular frames), built in 1903 and 1911. These would have therefore been later than the Tubular Frame Wagon Co. proposal, but possibly the large bogie van concept was inspired by it - though actually built with more conventional underframe.

 

 @Moogie-69, was there a reason you draw Fox bogies to go under this wagon? 

 

 

[Moogie-69]

Thanks for the input everyone.  I love trying to figure out stuff like this, the wealth of knowledge you guys have is amazing. It's like doing paper archeology. 

Mol_PMB, the drawings didn't show any so it got the Guinness van style, at least now I can put something more appropriate under it.

The 30 Ton wagons body is 33' 8" and the bogie wagon body is 26' so fairly close.

Well at least, if someone is modeling the T&FHC or GSWR they will have two new possible wagons for their layout .

Edited Friday at 10:46 by Moogie-69

[Mol_PMB]

A couple of photos of the 3’ gauge version of the tubular frame bogie van on the T&D:

https://flic.kr/p/2pwC8vp

https://flic.kr/p/2pwq8o5

Note vertical planking and pitched roof - very Yankee!

[jhb171achill]

7 hours ago, Moogie-69 said:

Thanks for the input everyone.  I love trying to figure out stuff like this, the wealth of knowledge you guys have is amazing. It's like doing paper archeology. 

Mol_PMB, the drawings didn't show any so it got the Guinness van style, at least now I can put something more appropriate under it.

The 30 Ton wagons body is 33' 8" and the bogie wagon body is 26' so fairly close.

Well at least, if someone is modeling the T&FHC or GSWR they will have two new possible wagons for their layout .

And there’s always the “what-if” concept too! 

[Mol_PMB]

Getting some more info over here:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/113035-more-pre-grouping-wagons-in-4mm-the-d299-appreciation-thread/page/529/#findComment-6297821

[Moogie-69]

5 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

A couple of photos of the 3’ gauge version of the tubular frame bogie van on the T&D:

https://flic.kr/p/2pwC8vp

https://flic.kr/p/2pwq8o5

Note vertical planking and pitched roof - very Yankee!

Cant see the photos, it says they are private and i don't have permission.