Kingsbridge - paint shop

[Noel]

Got 10 more wagons very lightly weathered tonight, and ten more black chassis banished to middle earth. Looks a bit stark directly under the bench lamp, but hopefully look a little more subtle in daylight tomorrow. If not will touch them up a bit tomorrow. Then will leave 48hr to cure (probably OTT but don't want any interactions), and then spray can of matt varnish to seal them. Put some of SSM's decals on a few of them yesterday using 'Decal fix' straight onto matt finish without a gloss patch (as an experiment just to see how they would take).

 

 

I prefer painting in natural daylight rather than indoor light. The two Valve design beat wagons look more acceptable after I brush painted them to slightly fill the 3D pitting and then air brushed very light weathering. Dapol chassis.

 

Edited July 21, 2017 by Noel

[burnthebox]

Nice one Noel, well done sir, they're looking mega, shove them on your tracks behind a 141 & enjoy & video. Now mind telling me what code, RAL mix or what was that TAN you put on the carriage, TIA ( don't forget that video )

Paul

[Noel]

Nice one Noel, well done sir, they're looking mega, shove them on your tracks behind a 141 & enjoy & video. Now mind telling me what code, RAL mix or what was that TAN you put on the carriage, TIA ( don't forget that video )

Paul

 

Hi Paul. The TAN was mixed from Tamiya X-6 Orange and a tiny quantity of XF-64 Dull Brown (i.e. about 8 drops into half a mixing jar of orange). Possibly a drop or two of red might might be needed for some era's shade of tan. The MM cravens orange band have a little more red in them than my coach example. Noel

[Noel]

The lightly weathered wagons and CIE decals look a little more subtle in natural daylight today compared to workbench lamp last night.

 

 

Still learning - DECALS: Probably not the correct way, but the sequence I tried this time for applying the small waterslide transfers (CIE roundels) was:

 

1. Spray wagon with matt acrylic paint (24hr after undercoat of Halfords grey primer)
   
2. Apply water slide transfers using 'decal fix' 48hr later direct to matt finish (no gloss varnish under decal)
   
3. Airbrush light weathering effects over wagon and decals using acrylic paints 48hr later (not sealed beforehand)
   
4. Seal finished wagons with humbrol matt acrylic varnish 48hr later
   

 

I tried this time without the extra gloss varnish step under decals, because the decals were small (6mm x 6mm) and I had seen a few video tutorials on Humbrol 'decal fix' which claimed it could be used with waterslide transfers directly on to a matt paint finish. I did it as an experiment to see if 'decal fix' really worked directly onto a matt acrylic paint finish, and in this case I seem to have got way with it. The decals are the little white CIE roundels below. I'm fairly new to all this painting and weathering so keen to try lots of experiments with different methods as I try to learn along the way.

 

Not having to put a patch of gloss varnish under the small decals first, saved two steps and two extra drying times, not to mention having to then put a patch of matt varnish back over it afterwards before spraying some light acrylic weathering. Next time when I am adding decals to a loco will try a patch of gloss varnish under it, apply decal, apply matt varnish, then airbrush weather, then final coat of matt varnish to seal. But there seems to be a lot of varnishing steps. I will use a patch of gloss varnish though in future if applying larger decals. Loads more to learn but I'm loving the fun journey.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Noel

[Noel]

Two more B&T coach resprays on the way - pseudo CIE Bredins. As JB suggests I'll mix these with other coaches in rakes for miss-mash formations like 1960s.

 

Edited July 21, 2017 by Noel

[Noel]

Pleasantly surprised this evening when the masking tape was removed on these two resprays to CIE Black'n'Tan Bredin(ish) from from Hornby Stanier BR Blood'n'Custard livery. This learning odyssey is addictive. Next will very lightly weather, mainly roofs and under frames as in the 60s coach sides were pretty clean, then a coat of matt varnish. The seating needs recolouring as well and a few seated pax installed.

 

 

 

 

That will be three Bredin(ish) laminates to add to mixed B&T rakes on the layout.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Noel

[popeye]

Very neat, your getting good at this.

[burnthebox]

Looking mega Noel, so while your at it, any ideas as to what other BR / LMS coaches would be suitable for a lick of paint, for me, always keeping the 2 FOOT RULE in mind...

Paul

[rebelred]

At this rate Noel you'll be setting up your own re - spray & weathering service!!

[Noel]

. . . while your at it, any ideas as to what other BR / LMS coaches would be suitable for a lick of paint, for me, always keeping the 2 FOOT RULE in mind...

Paul

 

Hi Paul, I don't know, will look in the attic later, we would have to ask the 'Oracle' JB if something like this would pass muster as a repaint candidate. It's a much finer model than the Hornby toys I have used so far.

 

Or, I have some of these in GWR livery, but not sure either look like any of the stuff CIE ever ran

 

At this rate Noel you'll be setting up your own re - spray & weathering service!!

 

Cheers, but I think not I'll stick to playing with my model trains.

Edited April 2, 2017 by Noel
Ommision

[burnthebox]

Hi Paul, I don't know, will look in the attic later, we would have to ask the 'Oracle' JB if something like this would pass muster as a repaint candidate. It's a much finer model than the Hornby toys I have used so far.

 

 

Cheers, but I think not I'll stick to playing with my model trains.

 

Noel, I agree 100% of course, we would need to seek the knowledge of JB, but just think of the possiblities of the outcome ! A few photos of these coaches would be a great help. I have wagons that apart from colour, & which a coat or two of a similar paint, would, to me using the 2 FOOT RULE, not look out of place alongside / behind a B&T 141 !

Paul

[jhb171achill]

An actual GWR design was unlike anything Irish, so wouldn't do. The above looks like a brown and cream Mk 1, rather than an actual GWR coach.

 

Mk 1's are really only suitable for genny vans. The outline is not only unlike anything Irish, but because British Railways Mk 1s are so commonly "out there" and obviously associated with Britain, they are an onbious "botch job" and don't fit in - in my humble opinion - with Ireland.

 

If you WERE stuck and just wanted to paint one in CIE livery, I would retain the loo window vents but fill in the windows - at least.

 

Now, the LMS style would much better suit both final NCC days / early UTA coaches, or GSR "Bredins" or 1950/1 CIE stock which was more or less "later Bredins".

 

The circular window would have to go.

 

Brake passenger coaches were more common in Britain than here, and there were no Bredin stock with half passenger accommodation and half van, and few steel-sided examples of the species until late 1960s conversions of earlier stock (for example the 32XX series CIE brake standards). Thus, I would use all-passenger stock for conversion to "roughly-CIE-looking" stuff.

 

In place of the circular window, one might add a toplight vent like in the loos on laminate stock. Not an accurate representation of anything, of course, but a simple conversion that would fit in as well as anything not strictly correct.

Edited April 2, 2017 by jhb171achill

[burnthebox]

Many thanks JB, & I've just been looking back on the tread, Irish Carraiges, & in it Kirley if this parish brings forward a table of info on Irish Coaches, & from what I can understand, & that's saying nothing, it would seem as far as logos, snails, numbers paint shades were concerned, the rules just did not seem to apply !!!!! Of course I could be wrong !!

[jhb171achill]

There were rules as such, burnthebox, but like today (think white logos on ICRs) there were the odd exception.

 

Paint shades were as uniform as today. Wear and tear tended to dull some of them down, of course, and different lighting in photography made things look very different indeed at times.

 

There was an old adage at Whitehead years ago, in regard to the GNR's loco blue, that "well, I've heard that they just went to the local blue paint shop and got whatever was there". Thankfully, this is abject nonsense, possibly propagated to justify the RPSI's earliest attempt at repainting 171 in a blue many shades too light. The same has been said of CIE green. Both Dundalk and Inchicore had actual paint laboratories (I knew the last surviving member of staff at Dundalk) who went to great lengths to ensure uniformity by looking at what additives the paint might have; they mixed colours themselves on site.

 

In terms of logos, there would be a general rule that in 1945-55 (older, darker) CIE green, two snails were on bogie coaches and one on 6-wheelers. Post-1955, with lighter green, one was used always.

 

Numerals were always on the left.....

[jhb171achill]

So, exceptions.....

 

Albert Quay painted one old C & B coach in the older dark green with two unlined snails and no lining. West Clare stock never had lining in CIE days, either in dark or light green, and frequently had no snails either. They were painted in Limerick.

 

C & L stock only had lining ABOVE window level. The rebuilt coach no. 1L was light green and had neither lining nor snail, nor did the darker green C & L coach no. 7 (I think; the "bus coach").

 

Some full brake 6-wheelers had no snail when in later lighter green.

 

A single (Glanmire painted) J15 had a black smokebox, though it was otherwise in standard grey; this was only carried in its last 18 months in traffic. Obviously, on other standard grey locos, the smokebox was grey too.

 

At least two, and possibly three, (fitted) "H" vans were standard carriage green with black chassis, for use as mail vans on Tralee-Mallow trains.

[DiveController]

So, exceptions.....

 

At least two, and possibly three, (fitted) "H" vans were standard carriage green with black chassis, for use as mail vans on Tralee-Mallow trains.

Jeepers, any photos of these anywhere?

[craven1508]

now thats a crisp finish!!

[jhb171achill]

Jeepers, any photos of these anywhere?

 

 

A forthcoming book will show two (albeit very much in the background) sitting in Mallow on the down side.

 

I've seen a better pic elsewhere, will delve. I'd imagine it was a short-lived arrangement.

[Noel]

Finished lightly weathering 25 wagons. On next batch will try some alternate methods like washes and powders. This is addictive.

 

Wagons after visit to varnishing shop - Humbrol Acrylic matt spray can varnish

 

Wagons back on the layout

 

CIE Decals from Weshty

 

Video of rake of recently weathered wagons. Some sound editing to add to the DCC sound coming from the loco.

 

I just love the diversity of loose coupled goods trains of that era.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Noel

[jhb171achill]

Looking good - great weathering job.

[Kirley]

It really does make a difference.

[Noel]

Looking good - great weathering job.

It really does make a difference.

Cheers JB + Kieran. Well learning. The main thing is it has opened up another aspect of the hobby for me which I am enjoying. Looking forward to weathering the IRM ballasts later this month when my order is delivered. I added some background rail noises to the video which was interesting. I'm thinking of making up an app to play selected background sound mixes in a loop.

[Noel]

Next project is this. Now what livery to go for? I am torn between Black'n'Tan 1960s, but really like the black livery with the yellow front panel, and then there is the flying snail green livery which would be great for hauling some of my green flying snail coaches. Decisions decisions. First one was to file away the head light boxes.

 

 

Does anybody have any colour photos of those liveries, very few on the internet?

Edited July 21, 2017 by Noel

[jhb171achill]

Noel, the various colour albums should show enough of them to get an idea.

 

Basically, for A and C classes:

 

1. New - to early 1960s at latest: All over silver, bogies & roof included when new. Since this weathered worse than any livery in history, before or since, heavy weathering is obligatory to look realistic! Numbers in light green in ends and on mid sides. Metal Flying Snails light green attached, not just painted on. I have one somewhere.

 

2. 1960 or so, overlapping (dirty) silver, to 1963 - post-'55 lighter green with or without thin waistline light green band. Steel "snail" painted light green attached to sides, high up middle. Numbers in light green on ends and sides as before.

 

3. 1962: now we're into the black'n'tan era. Initially, full black'n'tan with waist high tan all round. Numbers on ends as before but in white. Side numbers small at ends. Then, all black. Some had CIE rounded on sides with small numbers at cab ends, others had a single large number in the middle and no roundel. Numbers on all black ends as before. Finally, some (not all) got the yellow panel with black number; other details as before.

 

4. After re-engining (if that's a real word) in late 60s / early 70s, a few initially with full height tan band, but most (and eventually all) with lower dipped tan band on side. Roundels and smaller numerals.

 

5. Post 1972, Supertrain livery.

 

6. For the A class, post-1987 Tippex livery. No Cs ever got this as they were all recently withdrawn. I think a C in tippex would have looked great!

 

Re the grey / green era, there will be a book.................though it's going to be several years!

Edited April 16, 2017 by jhb171achill

[Noel]

Noel, the various colour albums should show enough of them to get an idea.

 

Basically, for A and C classes:

 

1. New - to early 1960s at latest: All over silver, bogies & roof included when new. Since this weathered worse than any livery in history, before or since, heavy weathering is obligatory to look realistic! Numbers in light green in ends and on mid sides. Metal Flying Snails light green attached, not just painted on. I have one somewhere.

 

2. 1960 or so, overlapping (dirty) silver, to 1963 - post-'55 lighter green with or without thin waistline light green band. Steel "snail" painted light green attached to sides, high up middle. Numbers in light green on ends and sides as before.

 

3. 1962: now we're into the black'n'tan era. Initially, full black'n'tan with waist high tan all round. Numbers on ends as before but in white. Side numbers small at ends. Then, all black. Some had CIE rounded on sides with small numbers at cab ends, others had a single large number in the middle and no roundel. Numbers on all black ends as before. Finally, some (not all) got the yellow panel with black number; other details as before.

 

4. After re-engining (if that's a real word) in late 60s / early 70s, a few initially with full height tan band, but most (and eventually all) with lower dipped tan band on side. Roundels and smaller numerals.

 

5. Post 1972, Supertrain livery.

 

6. For the A class, post-1987 Tippex livery. No Cs ever got this as they were all recently withdrawn. I think a C in tippex would have looked great!

 

Re the grey / green era, there will be a book.................though it's going to be several years!

 

John, thank you very much. You are truly the 'jbikipedia' of this forum all matters Irish railways.

[Kirley]

Next project is this. QUOTE]

 

Noel have you considered cutting out the circular windows and grills. These can be replaced with the SSM A/C Class kit and gives that through view into the engine compartment. Also you could replace the hand rails and horn with brass and to my mind lifts the model to another level.

Only a suggestion....

[jhb171achill]

John, thank you very much. You are truly the 'jbikipedia' of this forum all matters Irish railways.

 

 

I remember most of it, Noel! Oul Father Time......!!

 

(And there are an increasing number of days when i feel it.........!)

[jhb171achill]

For general interest's sake, and of use to our colleagues building a layout based on Bantry, it may be of interest to know the regular C's on the West Cork system: these were -

 

C202

 

C210

 

C217

 

C220 (Lined green after 1960)

 

C224

 

C230 (Unlined green after July 1960)

 

C231 (Lined green by November 1960)

 

C232

 

C234 (Unlined green by mid 1960)

 

All others thoroughly filthy "silver".

 

In 1963, when they started painting them black'n'tan, a few were still silver - never went green. For our Bantry friends, (mods - is it possible to post this with Bantry as well?) the black Bandon Tank (No. 464) and green "C" class locos would bring in new interest if the layout is based about 1960/1, just before it closed, instead of in the fifties. It also allows railcars after 1954 - these would obviously not be accurate for, say, early fifties.

 

This is all for the record, for those wanting accuracy. If I had a West Cork layout, I would also be happy to have black'n'tan 141s heading a couple of Cravens and a Dutch Van towards Skibbereen......!

Edited April 16, 2017 by jhb171achill

[Noel]

Noel have you considered cutting out the circular windows and grills. These can be replaced with the SSM A/C Class kit and gives that through view into the engine compartment. Also you could replace the hand rails and horn with brass and to my mind lifts the model to another level.

Only a suggestion....

 

Hi Kieran.

 

Thanks for suggestions. I have considered same, but I've decided to walk before I run on the first loco project. I have the SSM detailing kit, but the grills don't match for C class (i.e. the SF body grill seems incorrectly much wider), I've already filed off the headlamp as the loco will be pre-rebuilt era, and I quite like the existing resin grill on top, which leaves brass for just the front window surrounds, wipers, etc. I will save the SSM detail kit for an A class project where I can use all of the brass. For this C class I have a modified centre drive chassis which fills the internal space, so little point having a see through grill (i.e. on the prototype you could see right through the loco from one side to the other).

 

The three areas I wan't to concentrate on for this first loco 'training exercise', is the quality and precision of the paint job, chassis running performance as per the prototype (i.e. due weight, all wheel drive and all wheel pickup), and DCC sound.

 

Noel

[Kirley]

I know what you mean about the Kit, you have to cut it for a C Class.

 

 

Looking forward to seeing your chassis Noel.

[Noel]

Yea, if I cut the resin I'd want to ensure the grills ended up flush with the body sides rather than protruding, same for the window frames, well almost flush.

[popeye]

There is a lot to do to this kit to ring it up to a good standard.

I got the brass etch and only used the round fan grill. I'm still trying to glaze it

and the motor i got with it was so bad, i put in a Black Beetle which runs very well.

Good luck, it will be nice when finished i'm sure.

[jhb171achill]

What's the best chassis to use for a "C"? Also, even if not best as such, what's the cheapest and easiest?

[DiveController]

A forthcoming book will show two (albeit very much in the background) sitting in Mallow on the down side.

 

I've seen a better pic elsewhere, will delve. I'd imagine it was a short-lived arrangement.

Ok, JB, many thanks. Please post or PM

K

[Noel]

What's the best chassis to use for a "C"? Also, even if not best as such, what's the cheapest and easiest?

 

SF recommends these Hornby chassis for a plastic "cut and shut" job: Class 25 or 29 or 73, and the C class kit comes with instructions for cutting any of these three. However these are old style basic chassis (i.e. railroad specs) with only four wheel diagonal pickup and one powered bogie.