10mm scale T&D loco ?

[PorkyP]

I may have done a terrible thing here... I was kindly sent a basic diagram of one of the Hunslett Tralee and Dingle locos, now the drawing was curiously in 6mm to the foot, I was experementin' in my crude way to try and scale it up, to 7mm with the help of the Mrs and her wee printer..

The thing is, this was elusive.. but I ended up with a nice drawing in 10mm to the foot !...looking at this turned me head a bit to thinking, hmmm that locomotive would be a monster !...and seeing as I was going to scratch build it anyway, what about trying it in 10mm scale..?

Has any of you gents built an engine in 10mm at all ?  I'm assuming there's nothing available in this size like wheels or whatever and you're looking at making everything...

Go on lads, talk me out of it...

 

[Galteemore]

Depends what you want to do ! Don’t forget that 10mm to the foot scales out at 30mm - close enough to 32mm gauge if you can live with the compromise - a fairly wide source of wheels and track parts..,

[PorkyP]

Ooh, never thought of that, yer a genius dear sir !...as it's a bit of a one off anyway, when the Mrs has recovered from the stress, I could even nudge the drawing up a couple of mm to suit....tho at that size an extra 2mm on the track isn't too tragic...

In fact having just shown the drawing to a steel rule, compared to the alleged dimensions, it's a tad oversize anyway so the loco and the track might kind of meet half way !

Edited July 12, 2019 by PorkyP

[Glenderg]

I've just had a quick look at this "idea".. It's a bit bonkers. If you use 32mm track as the 3 foot gauge track, the scale works out at a domestic authority unhappiness of 1:28.575. 

No, yer not going to find wheels or miniature folk to shovel coal in at this scale.. 

Anyway, there's a bit of key info missing here - if the model is for a layout, gauge of what track is readily available determines the scale of the loco. 

If its a static model for display, then scale determines gauge, since you can make yer own bit of track. 

I can scale the drawings for you, once you've sorted the scale/gauge issue. 

I applaud this madness, incidentally. 

Richie. 

[PorkyP]

Cheers Richie!...I know its a bit barking, tbh in real life it's more likely to be a display model, (tho its always tempting to make a wagon or two and maybees see if you can get it all going!)

I take your point about parts, tho I'm not fussed about the little people, the wheels, more so. I was toying with how I might fabricate those, (unfortunately I had a small lathe once, but like a proper eejit I flogged it! ) I saw available some wheels that might do but were a wee bit too small.. Now your plan of re scaling it sounds good if for instance it means you can get a set of wheels right away without having to hand carve the buggas out of solid !

If you're prepared to re scale a couple of drawings, that's incredibly kind of you, it's been, as you see, a bit beyond our pay grade, I'm more at home welding big bits of metal together meself!

Having said that the re sizing drama has started me off on the idea of building a big scale loco which would otherwise not have occurred, and I do fancy the whole project now!....maybe the best plan is to verify what wheels I can get that are nearest to size and pattern then re scale around those? 

 

[murrayec]

Hi PP

10mm to 1 foot  is Gauge 1 scale (1:30), most people run gauge 1 on 44.45mm track (4ft 8.5ins), Gauge O track at 32mm which is 2mm over 3ft narrow gauge! but if your going to build your own track all should be OK..... or just go with 32mm!

So Gauge 1 wheels and stuff is available

Eoin

 

Edited July 12, 2019 by murrayec
Changed 5mm to 2mm!

[PorkyP]

The nearest wheels I could find were from Dean Goods, meant for 16mm 'garden railways'  the wheels are 30mm dia. (assume this dia. doesn't include flange,) and look like this, not perfect but would do...my drawing as it stands claims wheels of c. 31.5 to 32mm

I just looked a a very old T&D book I've got and it reckons the driving wheels are 3ft (and a 1/2 inch) diameter and the pony wheels 2ft so a 30mm drive wheel is about right ( and me feckin drawings a bit big, aarrgh ! )

Edited July 12, 2019 by PorkyP

[Mayner]

Studio Scale Models produce a 10mm scale kit of a Tralee & Dingle Kerr Stewart 2-6-0T most likely to run on O Gauge track. The kit was originally designed and produced by Adrian Rowland. 

Worsley Worksmight blow-up some of their T&D scratchbuilder parts to 10mm if you ask.

 

15mm Scale (bigger still) is widley used for models of 3' gauge stock on 45mm (gauge 1) track outdoors the rtr stuff is expensive https://www.track-shack.com/acatalog/Accucraft-S20-9G-IOM-Mona-2-4-0T-Lined-Ailsa-Green-live-steam-locomotive-Accucraft-S20-9G.html

 I have a "near enough" plasticard scratchbuilt model of a Schull & Skibereen 4-4-0T on a Playmobile/LGB 0-4-0 chassis which would have been reasonably inexpensive and satisfying/straightforward to build.

There is also an inexpensive IP Engineering http://www.ipengineering.co.uk/page26.html 16mm laser cut ply and card kit of the T&D inspection railcar

 

Edited July 13, 2019 by Mayner

[PorkyP]

Some very nice models there, I particularly like your Skull & Skib. 4-4-0 . any kits are Way too expensive for the likes of me, it's got to be basically build it all myself.... I'll have a look at Worsley works and see if they've any bits that might help, I hadn't thought of  the fact they could 'blow up' parts....having had a think, (more dangerous madness ). I reckon I could fabricate some wheels using thick walled tube, (you can get 32mm) with the spokes and centres filed out of flat sheet in one piece etc, all silver soldered together, they'd be much closer to the real ones than the best match I found, and about right for my drawing.

15mm scale ! Don't encourage me any worse than I am already ! You're almost in the area of steel fabrication now, I do welding and stuff in real life and if I'm not careful I'll be creating something that weighs as much as a car engine!.....

Seriously, thanks gents for the great advice and suggestions so far,  I've got a few lumps of 1mm brass sheet begging to be used and I've ordered a couple of bits at 0.5 mm.  Soldering wise I've got a normal little 30w iron like you'd use on wire, and a 100w gun type thing, not sure either would be that suitable, in the past on general soldering I've used a gas torch, tho maybe a bit too wide a heat for a brass model ?.. I'd be needing differing melting point solders too I'd think, any advice on these is most welcome!

Edited July 13, 2019 by PorkyP

[Galteemore]

1mm brass might be ok for chassis and 0.5 should give a firm body structure. 30 w iron should be enough for the body work but it’s worth getting proper flux and 145 or 188 solder. You may need something more powerful for the chassis as such thick brass will be a heat sink / 100w gun might be ok. Eileen’s Emporium or Squires are a good source for solder and flux.

[Mayner]

I bought S&S No 4 Erin from a modeller in the UK (forgotten his name) who built several Irish Narrow gauge locos in plasticard on rtr chassisand was moving up to standard gauge on 2"½" gauge!

Erin is very sturdily built in 1-2mm plasticard with no sign of warping or distortion, only bought parts very old LGB 0-4-0 chassis bogie wheels vacuum pipes and possibly dome!

 

[PorkyP]

I'd have been scary about plasticard on a big loco, but he's obviously made it properly with a lot of bracing, I have a bit of a thing about making everything OTT over engineered ! Where's a good place for ready made domes btw.? They're something that would be doable with effort but probably better if already available in the right size.

Would I need both types of solder so later operations don't melt the earlier work? The thicker sections I could probably use a small flame torch on maybe...I remember they used to do tiny torches for lead work with a pin point flame that work off oxy acetylene, I've got oxy-a kit myself, the big stuff obviously, but doubtless could find one of the little lead burning ones on fleabay..

Edited July 13, 2019 by PorkyP

[murrayec]

58 minutes ago, PorkyP said:

 I'd be needing differing melting point solders too I'd think, any advice on these is most welcome!

Hi PP

You may find some helpful soldering 'tips' here;-

Fabricating up wheels- if you are going to run the model a lathe will be an essential tool! I have a link to a youtube video of a guy fabricating wheels using a home made aluminium jig which I kept for reference!! - when I find it i'll post a link....

Eoin

[Galteemore]

I’ve only ever used 145 on brass. If you’re quick you won’t melt other work. It’s good practice anyway to work at alternating sides or ends for each joint to avoid pushing too much heat into the work at once and causing warping. 

Edited July 13, 2019 by Galteemore

[PorkyP]

Good point I'd need to be wary of distortion, I've come across this in real life doing full size welding work!

Eoin, thanks for the tutorial, I'll sit down with a drink and study that properly....a lathe, well I kick myself for selling the small one I had a year or two back, i thought I'd never use it!! ....I'm already looking at what's available cheap on ebay, it's probably something I'm going to want ongoing if I admit it...

If you find the wheel making fillum that'd be grand ! ...I've got a view in my mind how I'd make them which I think is doable, he said..!!

[murrayec]

5 minutes ago, PorkyP said:

Would I need both types of solder so later operations don't melt the earlier work? The thicker sections I could probably use a small flame torch on maybe...

PP

I use 180 for most work, as Galteemore says 'be quick'  so loads of heat, a 100w iron will work on chassis parts- one just needs to keep the heat going in the chassis when you get it up to temperature and work on heavy sections first, being careful not to raise the temp to high otherwise it will distort. Use heat-sinks to help take heat away from soldered parts.....lumps of aluminium are good for this- loves heat and solder wont take to it.

Try to stay away from using a torch on brass- very hard to control the heat- and suddenly all your previous soldering falls apart! a torch is good for taking things apart...

Eoin

 

[PorkyP]

I was hoping a small torch would be useful as its something I'm happy using from 'previous life'  but I take your point about melting everything..... this is the type of soldering irons I have, really designed for electrical wires i guess, sorry about blurry pic but you get the idea, the gun type has a double bent over tip which isn't exactly presicion tool but hopefully will do. I'll be best to get the proper solder, some flux and experiment  with some odd scraps of brass to get the hang of it before trying anything else..

[murrayec]

Hi PP

A soldering gun is not ideal, their heavy and the way the tip is designed its hard to manipulate inside a chassis, also the contact surface area of the tip is not big enough to get the heat into the parts- fine for electrical work in my experience.

Eileens do a Antex 100w for about £20.00 with a grand big flat tip excellent for this work- I use one of these

Buying a lathe is a whole other thread!

In my opinion one should buy the biggest lathe possible! I have a Mini lathe and its fine for small part turning but it is just to small for comfortable hand access regardless of how small the part is, getting tools in at the work and finding a way of holding the work can be quite frustrating. Larger work cannot be done on it and I have to go elsewhere to do that.

A Myford Series 7 is the ideal size but the cost is crazy, the Myford ML10 is a lot cheaper but not as adaptable. Also consider being able to mill in the lathe! I setup the Mini lathe to do milling and again found the size frustrating and eventually got a mill/drill for milling. Also consider tooling- the lathe is probably 1/3rd of the requirement- the other 2/3rds is the tooling to do the work!.....

Browse 'Model Engineer' & 'Model Engineer Workshop' magazines for adds and info

Wheel building;-

If you can find a copy of Mike Sharman's book 'A Guide to Locomotive Building - From Prototype to Small Scale Models' ISBN 0 85361 341 9, he gives a great method to building wheels for his Crompton big wheels but the method can be used on smaller stuff, the books has loads more helpful tips also.......

Eoin

 

[PorkyP]

Thanks again Eoin

Tbh for 20 quid I may as well invest in the same one you use !... I thought the ones I have were likely to be less than ideal, you're dead right about the gun type being heavy and awkward , I'll have a look on Eileen's, I'll need the solder anyway.

Lathes, I've actually had one or two in the past, I even had a heavy old Boxford in an upstairs flat back in the 80s sitting on scaff boards so it didn't go thru the floor ! 

I know what you mean about size but i really haven't got room for anything other than a small or 'model making ' type at the mo, they can also start to become very expensive too, I'll keep watch for something that's usable, tho will be a compromise for sure, but I've had a little bit of experience with them in the past so could probably choose something usable for the purpose I need.

I'll try and find the M Sharman book too..if you do come across the wheel building video you mentioned tho ..! 

ps just got the book for €7 inc. so can't go far wrong there !

Edited July 13, 2019 by PorkyP

[murrayec]

PP

I found the wheel build- it's not a vid it was photos on fb. I pm'd you a the photos

Eoin

24 minutes ago, PorkyP said:

ps just got the book for €7 inc. so can't go far wrong there !

PP

You'll enjoy that, Mike Sharman built amazing models and layouts.....

Eoin

[Glenderg]

Tralee_&_Dingle_No_02.pdf

So @PorkyP I've scaled this to 10mm to the foot, or 1:30.48. I've amended the wheels to the sizes published on wikipedia, but as you can see with the cab and body measurements, there's something amiss. I'd suggest trying to get a hold of some more accurate drawings, if that's possible. 

On the wheel front, I reckon you could turn the ponies at the front, and drill the 3 hole discs with a bench drill. 

 

As far as the drivers is concerned, these will do you just fine! https://www.ebay.ie/itm/NEW-LEGO-Train-black-locomotive-wheel-X3-spoked-railway-spoke-speichenrad-rc-a-/392334531088?hash=item5b58f5da10

I know nothing about lego trains, but it seems like a reasonably priced option, and easy to tone down the flanges to something approximating scale wheels. You can easily file out the counter weights, remove spokes, or add more detail with ease. Anyhoo, drawing attached, have fun! 

Richie. 

[PorkyP]

Richie, that's brilliant ! ...I had a bit of a measure of the alleged dimensions and as you rightly say the drawing has to be a bit off..the only other diagram of this seems to be a tiny one in the very old Whitehouse Tralee & Dingle book, I'll try and photograph it but I never have much luck getting em in focus !...there doesn't seem to be another drawing of these locos I can find, the bigger 2-6-2 loco has a drawing that looks by the same hand as the 2-6-0 so likely the same issues. Anyway thanks again for taking the trouble to help and advise , and encourage me mad scheme!

[PorkyP]

This is the best I could do with the camera on this tablet thing of the other drawing...

[PorkyP]

Detail, again sorry about blurry focus..

Edited July 13, 2019 by PorkyP

[PorkyP]

On a bit of a tangent I just purchased the 1890s original of this, it's the arrangement drawing of the 2-6-2 loco, its apparently 11" x 14" so a nice big piece, maybe this one will be the next build after the 2-6-0 !  

For 8 GBP for a nice drawing of a classic Irish loco I thought it'd be rude not to grab it, will be goin straight on me wall !

Edited July 13, 2019 by PorkyP

[Glenderg]

@PorkyP

You'll have to print this on A3, should be enough to start making a mock-up in cardboard etc. 

The previous drawing, compared with the above, had a shorter chimney, dome was in the wrong location, and the cab was iffy. 

Richie.

Tralee_&_Dingle 2-6-0T A3.pdf

[David Holman]

Fascinating thread.

 For what it's worth ' Gauge 1NG' was something I explored for a while, though never got any further than a few track plans. However, the whole Gauge 1 thing has been pretty nebulous over the years - anything from 10mm/ft on 45mm track (clearly wrong), or 1/32 (double S scale), plus the modern Aristocraft diesels (very tempting at the price!), which are approx 1:28ish, I believe.

 Therefore doing 10mm/ft on 0 gauge track isn't going to be far out and certainly far better than other scale/gauge combinations I could mention!

 If building a layout, then 6ft radius points need about 18"/45cm of space, so it is then possible to quickly work out how much space a terminus layout would need. Doable in about 3metres, plus fiddle yard maybe?

 As others have said, wheels will need exploring, but as many NG locos had outside frames, then the correct number of spokes should not be a problem and Slater's 7mm wheels of the appropriate diameter ought to be ok.

 All in all, could be the start of a fine project!

[PorkyP]

1 hour ago, Glenderg said:

@PorkyP

You'll have to print this on A3, should be enough to start making a mock-up in cardboard etc. 

The previous drawing, compared with the above, had a shorter chimney, dome was in the wrong location, and the cab was iffy. 

Richie.

Tralee_&_Dingle 2-6-0T A3.pdf 267.9 kB · 2 downloads

Nice one Richie, this drawing you'd say was a better start point then?...I'm pretty sure Inchicore changed the chimneys for taller ones at some point on these locos, so perhaps the drawing is of an earlier incarnation, no excuse for dodgy measurement tho !...I've not cut anything out as yet so it's all possible to change, a cardboard mock up is a brilliant idea btw !

Edited July 13, 2019 by PorkyP

[Glenderg]

I have to agree with David here about using off the peg 7mm track here, and inching out the wheels by 1.00mm either side - that way you *could at some later stage make it rattle away through the garden or whatever ye fancy. It's 32mm is the gauge of 7mm, don't have any track to hand. 

Yeah, I wouldn't swear by either, not really up on the narrow gauge stuff tbh, but I'd go with the second one. Also, the benefit of the mock up is it's pretty quick to do, costs little, and even if it's as odd as moll belle, you can eyeball it and maybe inspire a bit of further action if you start to flag. Keep us posted! R.

 

[PorkyP]

I certainly wouldn't object to the 32 mm gauge business, like you say it's only a mm each side..! As it's a bit of a rogue model anyway I'd be tweaking the build to suit as it progresses..

I've had a look at Slater's wheels, there's nothing that obviously fits with ten spokes, calculating up from 7mm you'd be looking at wheels quoted to be maybe 4ft 2ins or something, (in 7mm) pity they don't just give a straight mm size as well. These locos have inside frames and the wheels are quite visible. I'll probably experiment with my mad idea of making wheels, I'll try a couple, if I make a pig's ear of it, then I've only lost a few slices of steel...!

I hadn't thought of a layout particularly, this big loco build idea came about accidentally like I mentioned at the start!...I was planning a 'little' 7mm Cavan & Leitrim set up and have an Alphagrapix Ballyconnell station which I was thinking of maybe  butchering into a Ballinamore template !

Edited July 13, 2019 by PorkyP

[murrayec]

PP

In my view you got to build this to run, if you spend a whole lot of time and money to build this I reckon in the end one would kick themselves if it could not run!

Slaters and the like are not the place, one needs to step up to the Model Engineer Suppliers;-

Gauge 1 Model Railway Association has a lot of links to traders and do some very helpful books and data sheets;- https://www.g1mra.com/

Walsall Model Industries do 3 foot cast drivers & truck wheels and a whole lot of other useful stuff, their wheels can be purchased as castings or pre machined n insulated;- https://www.walsallmodelindustries.co.uk/

At first the cost of parts seems high compared to the smaller scales but this is another realm! when one builds and runs a large scale loco or train it is very hard to go back!!

Take a look at this Gauge 1 Class 800 built by Mr Kelly MRSI;-

Eoin

 

 

Edited July 14, 2019 by murrayec

[PorkyP]

I take your points Eoin, ...I've already been thinking about just getting rid of all my 00 stuff and doing bigger things, it was 7mm I was first heading towards, in fact I've got a body only white metal kit of the same typeT&D loco that I was going to copy as it's in bits, (2 for  1 kinda thing!) hence the drawings I was fiddlin' with, and hence the error that made me think it'd be good fun to build the bigger ( 10mm as it turned out) engine.  

As I've mentioned, I've been doing engineering type stuff in me real life, welding and the like ( even some on the real railway) and building old cars, so making stuff with metal is something I've always done really. But, I've never tried building a loco from scratch so it's a learning curve like they say, and its likely to begin as a simplified build....I have to say it's great that you fellas are being so helpful, for which I'm really grateful ! I was thinking, if i did make this loco run able, it might be easier, to start with, just to ensure all the motion and stuff runs ok, and push it with a motorised wagon or something, .....tho I've only had one 'tender drive' loco in the past which I thought  was Crap!

A slight snag with Richie's drawings btw is I can't do A3 printing, the Mrs only has a little machine that does A4 and there's no where I could easily get it done..

I just checked out the Walsall industries stuff, very nice to be sure, I saw they even do so called T&D drivers!  however these are 45mm diameter so way too big at my 10mm scale for this one!  

Edited July 14, 2019 by PorkyP

[Galteemore]

I’d second Walsall Model Engineering, if you find anything workable in their range, PP, having used their wheels myself. Northants Model Railway Supplies is another very helpful sort of bloke http://www.nmrs-models.co.uk/

Edited July 14, 2019 by Galteemore

[murrayec]

PP

Print out on A4 with some overlap and tape the prints together, the best way to do this is import the pdf into photoshop and then print from there or even better if @Glenderg is watching he could save out his cad drawing in A4 bits to a pdf which you could print and tape together- sorry R.!

I've done boats, bikes & cars- never had a go at real railway though.....

Tender drive is really only used when one cannot get the mechanics to fit into the loco! At Gauge 1 there is no problem with this- oodles of space. Also it would be better to have the drive on the main driver wheel that runs the valve gear.

Again I feel a book reference coming up!

Mr Ian Rice did two books 'Locomotive Kit Chassis Construction in 4mm' ISBN 1 874103 10 0 & 'Etched Loco Construction ISBN 0 906867 86 X both Wild Swan Publication. These are a mine of information, not the same scale but the methods can be applied. The chassis book is a must for building your own chassis.....

other mandatory reading is anything by Henry Greenly (blame him for OO scale), Martin Evens, Guy Williams & Geoff Holt- The first two did big stuff as well as small. If you follow any of these guys methods the motion and stuff will run.

! you'll need to get a bigger bookshelf !

Eoin

 

 

[PorkyP]

You're spendin' all me cash yer divil..!  Just got the Ian Rice chassis book off evilbay anyway, 7.50 GBP seemed a reasonable price .....bookshelves?.I've already got railway books piled up high on a table beside me, ( occasionally the dog or the cat, knocks the whole lot on the floor...)

I still fancy my chances at wheel making, as there's really nothing I've seen so far that looks the part at all...what's annoying is I just missed a little lathe on ebay that went for about 50 quid !