DCC Sound for locos in 2020

[mmie353]

Hi, I am wondering in 2020 if i was thinking of getting DCC sound for my 141s, 181s, 071s and my 201s, what DCC sound decoders can I buy at the moment for them? I am interested but I have 15 locos at the moment with no DCC sound, it would be nice to have them upgraded if I can. 

[Noel]

Yip when you blow a sound project onto a decoder you wipe the entirety of the previous project out. I saw a youtube demo some years ago where a bloke recorded individual sounds from an existing model loco, remixed and added a few custom sounds, made a new project and blew it back.

Some of my baby GMs have a custom rail clank noise that I recorded from the internet. There are loads of resources out there if you've the time to dig for them, and the inclination to put it all together. Suppose its like the same attraction some have for kit building something unique rather than buying a standard RTR model. Some Custom sound functions I plan to develop are cascading coach door slamming, and the braking sound of an entire train especially the coaches rather than just the loco. Especially that unique craven screech the moves down the train rapidly as each coach comes to a halt when a train pulls up into a station. Wheeltappers have done some lovely custom functions for me including cascading coupling snatch as a goods train starts off, and the reverse cascading buffer clash as a goods train stops and each wagon progressively buffers up against the adjacent wagon starting at the front and working its wayl down the train to the last wagon. Speed dependance rail clank is another target. Very much for long winters evenings when MacBook pro gets bored, and the airbrush is clogged again!  Messing around with sound projects is a sort of  digital equivalent of kit building. Some like to roll their own, others just want to press go and start. Each on to their own. Have fun and always make backups.

Edited August 7, 2020 by Noel
lexdysia

[murphaph]

1 hour ago, irishthump said:

The 201 is the only sticking point, there was a file for the 12 cylinder 710G3B which I downloaded for my lone 201 model. But that file does'nt appear to be there anymore. Again the 16 cylinder is there in several versions.

 

 

What about the EMD 12-710G3A LATE EXH T?

ESU returns this with a reference to the 201 if you search ESU for "Irish".

[Noel]

On 3/30/2020 at 1:22 AM, mmie353 said:

Hi, I am wondering in 2020 if i was thinking of getting DCC sound for my 141s, 181s, 071s and my 201s, what DCC sound decoders can I buy at the moment for them? I am interested but I have 15 locos at the moment with no DCC sound, it would be nice to have them upgraded if I can. 

Hmmm, not sure if this is answering your question. Blank 21pin LokSound V5 decoders are €95 from German retailers like ModleBahnShop-lippe and Keiskemper  and it will work with all the MM locos, but there's a massive amount of work and training to make your own projects. For 15 locos that's a saving of only €100 after you buy the LokProgrammer, seems easier to buy 15 decoders from either somewhere like WheelTappersDCCsounds or MrSoundGuy. Both of those have excellent driving characteristics too, such as prototypical acceleration, coasting, prototypical braking, manual nothing, light engine mode, heavy train mode with lots of trashing starting off, automatic kadee magnetic uncoupling sequences. Full Throttle features of LokSound V5 or 'RealDrive' features of Zimo. The current MM supplied  071 and 201 projects lack any of these new driving features. Personally I really enjoy the challenge of trying to correctly judge prototypical stopping distances of a heavy train so that it stops at the correct position on a platform solely using brakes. It's so like the real thing. I sometmes pass the virtual distant signal set to danger 2miles from a station, pull off the power to notch zero,  coast, applying brakes gradually slowing the train, often the model doing a few  laps of the layout (ie for scale braking distance). Its pure magic.

[WRENNEIRE]

Quick fix
Buy the MM chips

Simples

[Noel]

Just now, WRENNEIRE said:

Quick fix
Buy the MM chips

Simples

Hi Dave, Unfortunately not that simple, MM don't have any for 141,181. Also  the 071 and 201 from both MrSoundGuy and WheelTappers are much better to drive than MM0044 and MM0055. I've ordered a number of MM121 decoders for the imminent 121s and just hoping they have some of the advanced prototypical driving features like coasting, braking, throttle hold, etc, that I've got used to with WheelTappers and MrSoundGuy. It's nice to drive them like the real thing, stopping a train by merely  reducing throttle without needing to brake is just so scalextric!   

[irishthump]

5 minutes ago, Noel said:

Hi Dave, Unfortunately not that simple, MM don't have any for 141,181. Also  the 071 and 201 from both MrSoundGuy and WheelTappers are much better to drive than MM0044 and MM0055. I've ordered a number of MM121 decoders for the imminent 121s and just hoping they have some of the advanced prototypical driving features like coasting, braking, throttle hold, etc, that I've got used to with WheelTappers and MrSoundGuy. It's nice to drive them like the real thing, stopping a train by merely  reducing throttle without needing to brake is just so scalextric!   

Those 121 decoders will work fine for the 141/181 locos as well. You MAY have some trouble with the lights but that's easily sorted.

26 minutes ago, murphaph said:

What about the EMD 12-710G3A LATE EXH T?

ESU returns this with a reference to the 201 if you search ESU for "Irish".

Well I missed that one! Apparently I was only searching the V4 files. 

That engine sound would be perfect for a 201.

 

 

 

 

 

[irishthump]

46 minutes ago, murphaph said:

 

If you do reprogram your 121s where would you get the ancillary sounds (horn especially)?

Well to be honest I'd probably use the old MM 071 file and just change the engine sound. 

[Noel]

34 minutes ago, irishthump said:

Well to be honest I'd probably use the old MM 071 file and just change the engine sound. 

Youtube can be a good resource for scraping some sounds depending on the isolation and quality

[mmie353]

@Noel Actually since I posted, I did reach out to Wheeltappers and I was advised on the DCC decoders, I will be wanting to get them for my locomotives and I will look at slowly getting them but I am trying to get them here in the US, the issue is that the North American market have a different DCC decoder that is available in Europe and hence I have to get anything in the US re-blown and I can get the files from them. I was trying to see what the difference is as I was provided the part numbers for the European ones but of course, I cannot locate them here in the US. 

I am still wondering, what is the difference between the US and the European ones and I will need to work with Wheeltappers once I get some. I am not sure the way things are going if this will be this year when I start this or next year. I was actually looking again last night on sound decoders as I cannot just go to my local store as they advised they do not carry them but i have to meet the owner to confirm as they are listed as a store you can buy them on the ESU website.

Later all

Mark

 

[irishthump]

14 hours ago, mmie353 said:

@Noel Actually since I posted, I did reach out to Wheeltappers and I was advised on the DCC decoders, I will be wanting to get them for my locomotives and I will look at slowly getting them but I am trying to get them here in the US, the issue is that the North American market have a different DCC decoder that is available in Europe and hence I have to get anything in the US re-blown and I can get the files from them. I was trying to see what the difference is as I was provided the part numbers for the European ones but of course, I cannot locate them here in the US. 

I am still wondering, what is the difference between the US and the European ones and I will need to work with Wheeltappers once I get some. I am not sure the way things are going if this will be this year when I start this or next year. I was actually looking again last night on sound decoders as I cannot just go to my local store as they advised they do not carry them but i have to meet the owner to confirm as they are listed as a store you can buy them on the ESU website.

Later all

Mark

 

The main Loksound decoder used in the US is the Loksound Select. This is a slightly lower spec then the V4 or V5. Files for the Select decoders can not be customised like  V4 and V5 Loksound files and are generally smaller as the select has less memory.

There are also 2 different versions of the V5 being released for US and Euro market. The V5 is the standard EU decoder and works with DCC as well as other control protocols. The V5 DCC is only available in the US and is DCC/Railcom only. I've heard it also has some differences in the brake features but I have'nt been able to find out much more than that. So the upshot is that you can only purchase the V5 DCC on your side of the pond. However, that should'nt matter. If you can get the files from Wheeltappers they will still work as the 2 versions are identical in all respects except for the ones I mentioned above.

 

[murphaph]

I've done a bit of research on these things lately so I'll just add a bit more background.

The select is physically identical to the v4 but it is hobbled by ESU at the factory to make it less capable than a real v4 by flashing a different firmware. This can't be overwritten by a Lokprogrammer.

Apparently this is purely a business decision because ESU wanted to compete in the US market where these sorts of limited decoders dominate. Rather than building a new decoder, ESU just hobbled their existing one. The hardware cost difference is probably negligible. The development costs are sunk anyway.

If they didn't do this, nobody would buy the v4 at full price. Everyone would buy cheaper "selects" and use those.

It is interesting to hear that the v5/v5(US) will have "less hobbling" than the v4/select. That would appear to be the route to take if one can only source ESU decoders in the US as v4 files should work

[mmie353]

I know that this company local to me ships international - https://www.trainsetsonly.com/ they have no store only a warehouse I think, but they are listed as a dealer for ESU products and it maybe because of Covid-19 that stocks are low, at the moment so it maybe worth keeping an eye on them to see if they get more over the next few months. They did have more items on the website than they have right now 

[Dhu Varren]

One advantage of owning a Lokprogrammer, which has not been mentioned so far, is the ability to reblow Loksound decoders by email. If you have a spare decoder, a number of suppliers of sound decoders, including Wheeltappers, will supply the sound programme of your choice as an email attachment. This eliminates the need to send the decoder to them by post for reblow, saves the cost of two lots of postage, and the possibility of the decoder getting lost in the post. All you need to do is to contact the supplier, give them the serial number of the decoder, make payment, which is usually cheaper than the cost of the supplier doing the reblow, and you will then receive the file by email.  

The file provided will only work on the decoder whose serial number you have provided, and the sound content cannot be adjusted, just like a new decoder supplied with sound, but all other facilities, such as CVs and function mapping are accessible for adjustment,

My most recent purchase by this method was the sound file for an NIR 80 Class from Wheeltappers, which incidentally, is very good. After loading it, I discovered that some sounds were appropriate for the 450 Class and not the 80 Class. However, a quick email to Wheeltappers explaining the problem resulted in a new file being emailed  within hours, with the correct sounds.     

[murphaph]

That's actually really useful.

[murphaph]

On 4/14/2020 at 2:19 PM, Dhu Varren said:

If you are into working with the Lokprogrammer, it is quite a simple matter to add Drive Hold, Coast and Brake functions to The ESU sound files for the 071 and 201. It is simply a matter of finding an FT fitted American loco with similar running characteristics to the 071 or 201, opening the program, opening sound slot 1, and deleting the contents completely. Any other unwanted sounds can also be deleted. Then open the 071 or 201 sound file alongside the now empty American loco program, and copy and paste the entire 071 or 201 sound slot 1 from the 071 or 201 program into the empty program, and Robert is your uncle. Then copy other sounds like horns etc and insert them where they need to go. All my 071/111s and 201s are running with downloaded ESU programs, but with Full Throttle features. It is worth trying, as you can always reprogram the decoder with the original ESU program if you are not happy with the results, or you screw up the transfer. 

I am trying this out now with the original (converted to v5 of course) 201 Class, being given the FT features from the above mentioned EMD 12-710G3A LATE EXH T project but to me it looks like all the complicated logic to do with the FT features are in the donor 710G3A sound slot 1 and these need to be retained, with the 201 Class sound slot one getting its contents deleted. Am I missing or misunderstanding something here?

[Dhu Varren]

On 8/25/2020 at 8:27 PM, murphaph said:

I am trying this out now with the original (converted to v5 of course) 201 Class, being given the FT features from the above mentioned EMD 12-710G3A LATE EXH T project but to me it looks like all the complicated logic to do with the FT features are in the donor 710G3A sound slot 1 and these need to be retained, with the 201 Class sound slot one getting its contents deleted. Am I missing or misunderstanding something here?

I think you are missing or misunderstanding something here. What I tried to explain is that the prime mover sound files in sound slot 1 from the donor FT loco are replaced by the prime mover sound files in slot 1 of the 201. The 'complicated logic' to do with the FT features are obviously not included in slot 1 with the sound, otherwise my transfer would not have worked, and like I said, my  071/111s and 201s now all have FT function with original sounds from the ESU 071/111 and 201 programs.  

[murphaph]

Thx for responding. Appreciate it.

Do you also delete the donor horn sounds and replace with the 201 horns?

 

[Dhu Varren]

51 minutes ago, murphaph said:

Thx for responding. Appreciate it.

Do you also delete the donor horn sounds and replace with the 201 horns?

 

Yes, any donor sounds not appropriate for the 201 should be deleted, and replaced by 201 sounds from the ESU 201 program.

[murphaph]

Cheers. I'm guessing then if the logic for the drive hold etc. is actually fully self contained within the respective "FT feature sound slot", then an alternative method would be to keep the 201 (etc.) file as is, then just add the FT sound slots, drive hold, run8, brake, coast? I assumed (obviously incorrectly) that the actual drive sound needs to be "FT compatible" but if the logic for drive hold isn't in the drive sound, then virtually any diesel loco can be given the FT features I guess?

I must say I have been wondering why several ESU files are not marked FT and are missing the drive hold slot, but DO have the other FT features. In the description it always says for these files "this is a normal idle project". I assumed because of this that the drive hold feature was not simply an additional sound slot, but required modification to the actual drive sound, hence the lack of "FT" in these files descriptors.

Edited August 30, 2020 by murphaph

[Noel]

6 minutes ago, murphaph said:

Cheers. I'm guessing then if the logic for the drive hold etc. is actually fully self contained within the respective "FT feature sound slot", then an alternative method would be to keep the 201 (etc.) file as is, then just add the FT sound slots, drive hold, run8, brake, coast? I assumed (obviously incorrectly) that the actual drive sound needs to be "FT compatible" but if the logic for drive hold isn't in the drive sound, then virtually any diesel loco can be given the FT features I guess?

I must say I have been wondering why several ESU files are not marked FT and are missing the drive hold slot, but DO have the other FT features. In the description it always says for these files "this is a normal idle project". I assumed because of this that the drive hold feature was not simply an additional sound slot, but required modification to the actual drive sound, hence the lack of "FT" in these files descriptors.

Not sure about the technical details, but the LokSound V4.0 decoders support drive hold. All of the projects WheelTappers did for my 141/181 fleet have it as well as 201 and 071, even their A class and 121 class projects.  Drive hold is great for simulating heavy trains starting off with trashing and notching, as swell as trains coasting from distant to home signals and prototypical braking distances. F5 is the most used function on my locos along with F6 for braking. Highly recommend Neil of Wheeltappers DCC sounds for all and any Irish diesel loco sounds. A class act and attention to detail. Got a superb steam project from him also for J15 (00 works). Highly recommend WheelTappers as the best and most comprehensive supplier for Irish DCC sounds.

http://www.wheeltappersdccsounds.co.uk/

 

[murphaph]

Cheers Noel. Appreciate the input but I'm really committed to the DIY/learning approach on this. I will have too many locos to pay for pre-blown sound in them all, which is the end goal. I've got the Lokprogrammer and the ESU 53900 "test bench" (which I can recommend for this sort of desk work-see attached image).

I just watched an ESU LLC video. Interestingly Matt Hermann states that the "Drive Hold" sound MUST be in sound slot 2. That's possibly why something wasn't working for me earlier. I'll try that later.

[Noel]

58 minutes ago, murphaph said:

Cheers Noel. Appreciate the input but I'm really committed to the DIY/learning approach on this. I will have too many locos to pay for pre-blown sound in them all, which is the end goal. I've got the Lokprogrammer and the ESU 53900 "test bench" (which I can recommend for this sort of desk work-see attached image).

I just watched an ESU LLC video. Interestingly Matt Hermann states that the "Drive Hold" sound MUST be in sound slot 2. That's possibly why something wasn't working for me earlier. I'll try that later.

Enjoy. It looks like a fun challenge honing a new skill. Like migrating from coding AppleSoft basic to UCSD Pascal back in 1982 on the original Apple IIe. The decoder test harness looks like  a neat tool.

[murphaph]

It's actually quite cheap. I paid €40 for mine. Great for this sort of task. It can be used for decoders from any manufacturer I suppose as it simply takes the place of a loco. Could be used independently of the Lokprogrammer as well if you use something like the JMRI DecoderPro probably.

[murphaph]

Another source of confusion here is ESU's documentation, or lack of it.

It is fairly clear to me now, that (at least some) v5 LS projects do NOT implement drive hold (interchangeable with "drivehold" in ESU manuals so watch out when searching!) in the same way as v4 ones did.

In the v4 projects I believe drive hold was always a sound schedule in sound slot 2.

I had all sorts of strange runaway behaviour when trying to use the 12cyl 710 v5 file with the 201 on a v5 chip. I decided late last night just to blow the whole unaltered project from this loco to my v5 and it worked fine. Hmmm I thought.

Upon closer inspection it's obvious that there is nothing in sound slot two, yet the decoder was responding perfectly to F9 as if drive hold was active. The other FT features were however in the sound slots as before.

I looked at the function mapping and there under F9 is a logical function "drive hold". It is not a sound schedule in a sound slot. The logical function seems to be directly able to alter the frequency of playback for the prime mover in sound slot 1.

There is one reference to this in the v5 manual but otherwise very little information on the internet that I can find. Perhaps my googling skills need improvement.

I'll play around a bit more when I get some time.

I suspect the v5 can do this but the v4 cannot, hence a project file that has all the FT sounds but relies on a logical function for the crucial drive hold feature, will not be marked as FT because on the v4 it won't work as expected.

The v5 is still very new to the US I think so information on the internet is scarce and most European modellers don't seem to care for the features.

Edit: Bit more info here;

https://groups.io/g/Loksound/topic/full_throttle_and_v5/73288281?p=,,,20,0,0,0::recentpostdate%2Fsticky,,,20,2,120,73288281

 

https://groups.io/g/Loksound/topic/loksound_5_0_and_full/74538055?p=,,,20,0,0,0::recentpostdate%2Fsticky,,,20,2,80,74538055

Quote (pertaining to v5 only):

"The typical default arrangement is:
- Drive Hold is now a Logical Function, not a sound slot and is mapped to F9.
- Run 8 is mapped to F26 with Logical Function "Shift Mode 2" and no sound slot.
- Coast is mapped to F27 with Logical Function "Shift Mode 3" and no sound slot.
- Manual Notching Logic is mapped to F28 with a special sound slot, typically 27."

Edited August 31, 2020 by murphaph

[irishthump]

3 hours ago, murphaph said:

 

I suspect the v5 can do this but the v4 cannot, hence a project file that has all the FT sounds but relies on a logical function for the crucial drive hold feature, will not be marked as FT because on the v4 it won't work as expected.

The v5 is still very new to the US I think so information on the internet is scarce and most European modellers don't seem to care for the features.

 

 

I haven't bought a V5 yet or even opened a V5 project in the Lokprogrammer software so I'm a little in the dark on the details. I didn't know that Drive Hold, Coast And Run 8 were now logical functions as opposed to sound slots in the file. Hopefully this means any V5 project can use these features. This is good news, as I was worried that the upcoming MM decoders for the 121 locos would not have these features. As you say, those features aren't really of interest to the European market.

As regards V5 vs V4 compatibility; V4 projects will work in V5 decoders. Now whether you need to use the sound slots to implement Drive hold/Coast/Run 8 or logic functions I really don't know.

V5 projects however will NOT work in V4 decoders.

 

[murphaph]

From more googling it seems that ESU dropped the FT suffix on v5 project files because ALL v5 projects do indeed have FT by default through logical functions.

The FT suffix was required for v4 files because FT came out during the v4 lifecycle. It was a way to identify new and upgrade v4 files but isn't necessary for v5 as it's a standard feature.

This is good news. Just need to get suitable US loco and modify the horns & lights to use the Irish sounds and use this as a template rather than using a v4 MM file as a template.

In time all relevant prime mover sounds will be available as v5 types.

ESU really do themselves no favours in how they get the information out there. Most of what I've found has been on forums. There's an obvious disconnect between ESU GmbH and ESU LLC. A lot of information seems to slip through the cracks.

 

[murphaph]

I want to correct my last post. All v5 US projects are FT enabled but that doesn't mean the 121s will be. Having said that, I believe it would be trivial to enable it if it (for some reason) wasn't enabled from the factory.

I installed the EMD 12-710G3A LATE EXH T on my v5 decoder and stuck it in 208 with an iPhone 6s speaker. It is far far far better than the original MM sound. The prime mover sound is a near CD quality file on the decoder. I will use this file as my template for my 201s. Interestingly there is a EMD 12-710G3A LATE EXH T HEP for anyone considering modelling the Enterprise during the ill-fated HEP period. This is also a HiFi file, though I haven't tried it as I have no interest in HEP.

ESU does not currently have HiFi files for the 8 cylinder engines but they are constantly remastering the original recordings for the v5. The v4 couldn't handle the high sampling rate so they didn't bother back then but now they have a reason to and as the Loksound Select is no more, all US model-railroaders are going to be going down the v5 path, so I expect ESU will have a vested interested in polishing these files up.

There are 3 suitable 12 cylinder 710 v5 sound files, 5 suitable 12 cylinder 645 files but just one each for the 8 cylinder variants of the 567 and 645. I guess not many US railroads bothered with those smaller engines or something.

I will use one of each of these as my templates for my A, 121, 141, 181 and 071 files. There's no good reason to use the v4 files as templates when using v5 decoders. The horns etc. can easily be copied to the Templates folder (best create a folder called 1-my-sounds or something, so the folder stays at the top) then you can easily replace US horns with the Irish ones when programming a new decoder.

[Adrian]

Just sharing this in case it's useful for anyone following or new to this thread - continuing the sound for class 141/181 themes, here's a full start to finish video of fitting both a sugarcube and megabass to the loco, with details on how to modify the chassis as well Hope someone finds it useful!