NIR Mk II corridor stock

[geraghtyg]

Has anyone got any photos or better still, video of any of the interiors of the NIR Enterprise Mk II corridor stock? I see on this video from 1988 https://youtu.be/dJZb5z_TVag that the second and third carriage look to be second class corridor carriages, which would have been ex BR first class corridor stock so I would imagine they would've been rather comfortable.

Even if there are no photos or videos, does anyone have any recollections or stories of travelling in Mk II Enterprise carriages?

[murphaph]

Were these BR FKs not converted to opens like their counterparts in the Republic?

[Galteemore]

IIRC there was some corridor First stock on the Enterprise in the 80s. My dad was on the first run of the GM-hauled set in 81 and I dimly recall a photo of him in a compartment with the other RPSI office-holders.

Edited October 21, 2020 by Galteemore

[seagoebox]

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[hexagon789]

54 minutes ago, murphaph said:

Were these BR FKs not converted to opens like their counterparts in the Republic?

Not initially, they entered service as Compartment Standards and were only converted to open in 1988-89.

That had the benefit of increasing seating capacity by 14 seats per vehicle.

[murphaph]

So just for my own benefit, the NIR FKs were all converted to open standards by say 1995?

Did any FKs survive as corridors, perhaps indeed as firsts?

[hexagon789]

19 minutes ago, murphaph said:

So just for my own benefit, the NIR FKs were all converted to open standards by say 1995?

Did any FKs survive as corridors, perhaps indeed as firsts?

The only two not converted with withdrawn to provide spares, so all of the former BR Western Region FKs which became Standards AND remained in service by 1995 were indeed converted to open seating.

One FK entered service as First Class, but this was converted to Open Standard 920 in 1991.

[jhb171achill]

I’m no expert on NIR stock - a bit modern for me - but on the last fling of those things, the 08:00 Portadown - Belfast (Maysfields Cattle Sidings), which I believe was the last REGULAR use of the 111/071 class anywhere, there was a side corridor brake 1st (used as a standard), which I would guess I was last in about 2000/1/2?

 

[hexagon789]

2 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

I’m no expert on NIR stock - a bit modern for me - but on the last fling of those things, the 08:00 Portadown - Belfast (Maysfields Cattle Sidings), which I believe was the last REGULAR use of the 111/071 class anywhere, there was a side corridor brake 1st (used as a standard), which I would guess I was last in about 2000/1/2?

 

They also obtained BFKs (Brake First Corridor) as well these having gensets fitted to heat the other coaches as of course unlike the Hunslets, the 111s couldn't heat coaching stock.

These are still marked as compartment stock in 1994.

Need to look out my other stock books for later dates, but I wouldn't expect them to still have had the older Mk2s some 3 years after displaced by the De-Dietrichs?

Edit: Though saying that, the gen van used with the Gatwicks was one of the ex-BFK Corridor Standard Generator Brakes.

Re-edit: I've checked, NIR had no compartment stock after 1991. The Brake First/Standard Corridor Generators were all converted in 1988/89 to open seating.

[geraghtyg]

1 hour ago, hexagon789 said:

They also obtained BFKs (Brake First Corridor) as well these having gensets fitted to heat the other coaches as of course unlike the Hunslets, the 111s couldn't heat coaching stock.

These are still marked as compartment stock in 1994.

Need to look out my other stock books for later dates, but I wouldn't expect them to still have had the older Mk2s some 3 years after displaced by the De-Dietrichs?

Edit: Though saying that, the gen van used with the Gatwicks was one of the ex-BFK Corridor Standard Generator Brakes.

Re-edit: I've checked, NIR had no compartment stock after 1991. The Brake First/Standard Corridor Generators were all converted in 1988/89 to open seating.

If you go to 3:35 on THIS youtube video at Malahide from 22nd August 1993, you can see that the first carriage (a BFK) is still a corridor as you can the sliding doors inside. Incidentally, the train itself is a very long 13 piece GAA special.......probably about as long as they got!

At 3:22 in THIS Youtube video from July 1993, you can see that the first two carriages are BFKs. What's noteworthy is that if you view the train from the other side as it leaves Drogheda station @ 4:10, you can see that the windows are of the non-opening variety on the first carriage as this carriage became an executive coach with air conditioning. I suspect that this is the same carriage mentioned in the other video.

[jhb171achill]

The one I was in was definitely later - on further thought, possibly about 1998. It had not been in use much - I only saw it a few times. For good measure for about a week it was hauled by a sole 141 from IE to replace a (regularly sick) 111; possibly the Dundalk pilot engine - with a load of nine bogies PACKED with commuters!

It was a brake 1st with a pretty big brake compartment; that's all I know.

[geraghtyg]

18 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

The one I was in was definitely later - on further thought, possibly about 1998. It had not been in use much - I only saw it a few times. For good measure for about a week it was hauled by a sole 141 from IE to replace a (regularly sick) 111; possibly the Dundalk pilot engine - with a load of nine bogies PACKED with commuters!

It was a brake 1st with a pretty big brake compartment; that's all I know.

Probably the same carriage I mention in my previous post as it had only 3 passenger compartments instead of the usual 4, with the rest being the brake/parcels/generator section.

[jhb171achill]

I'd say so. Looks like it all right.

[Dhu Varren]

NIR never owned any pure 'BFKs'. Brake vehicles on NIR were one of two types, either a Brake Driving Trailer for use with the Hunslets in push-pull mode, or a Brake Generator Van for use with GMs

The Brake Driving Trailers 811 & 812 with Standard Class open seating were purchased new in 1970, with 813 with First Class open seating in 1972. 811 was subsequently converted to an 80 Class Driving Trailer in 1988.

In 1981 NIR purchased three secondhand BR BFKs, 911, 912 and 913. They were all converted to Standard Class Generator Vans. Before conversion, they all had four compartments, but the compartment next to the Guard's accommodation became part of that, leaving only three seating compartments. The Guards Van section became the Generator Room.  911 was converted to Standard Class open plan seating in 1989. 912 was converted to First Class open plan seating in 1989. 913 was converted to an Executive vehicle in 1989, hence the large windows with toplights on one side, and aircon windows on the other. 911 subsequently had all passenger accommodation removed, and converted for use as a Brake Generator Van with the Gatwick coaches, and became 8911.

In 1983 NIR purchased another two secondhand BR BFKs, 914 and 915. These were again converted the same as the earlier ones, to Standard Class. 914 was converted to open plan seating in 1988, and 915 in 1989. 

4 hours ago, geraghtyg said:

If you go to 3:35 on THIS youtube video at Malahide from 22nd August 1993, you can see that the first carriage (a BFK) is still a corridor as you can the sliding doors inside. Incidentally, the train itself is a very long 13 piece GAA special.......probably about as long as they got!

At 3:22 in THIS Youtube video from July 1993, you can see that the first two carriages are BFKs. What's noteworthy is that if you view the train from the other side as it leaves Drogheda station @ 4:10, you can see that the windows are of the non-opening variety on the first carriage as this carriage became an executive coach with air conditioning. I suspect that this is the same carriage mentioned in the other video.

You have either better, or worse, eyes than me as I can't see any sliding doors in the first video clip. Of course that could be because the coach had already been converted to open plan seating some years before.

The first coach in the second clip is indeed the Brake Executive Generator Van, but the second coach is in fact 813 now numbered 917, the original Driving Brake First from 1970. This vehicle would have had a large Guards Compartment as described by JHB.    

[geraghtyg]

"You have either better, or worse, eyes than me as I can't see any sliding doors in the first video clip. Of course that could be because the coach had already been converted to open plan seating some years before."

I watched on a large screen, the sliding doors of the compartments are definitely visible. It's probably the Brake Executive Generator Van. It's definitely a generator coach because it has the side venetian vents. The last coach in that consist is an ex BR BFK Standard Class Generator Van, again you can tell be the side venetian vents and lack of a rear window for the driver. I would imagine that 2 generators were required for this long 13 piece consist. If you continue watching the video, the next train is another loco hauled Enterprise (remember that it's a GAA specials day). That train is only a 6 piece but the first coach is a ex BR BFK Standard Class Generator Van and the final is a Brake Driving Trailer.

"The first coach in the second clip is indeed the Brake Executive Generator Van, but the second coach is in fact 813 now numbered 917, the original Driving Brake First from 1970. This vehicle would have had a large Guards Compartment as described by JHB. "

As you mention, the second coach is the original driving brake first. The last coach is a driving brake second....you can see the drivers window at the back. I would imagine that the Brake Executive Generator Van was added to the consist (and probably locked out of use) purely to be used as a generator.

Edited October 22, 2020 by geraghtyg

[hexagon789]

10 hours ago, Dhu Varren said:

The first coach in the second clip is indeed the Brake Executive Generator Van, but the second coach is in fact 813 now numbered 917, the original Driving Brake First from 1970. This vehicle would have had a large Guards Compartment as described by JHB.    

Though it had open seating as did all of the first two batches of Mk2 stock built new for NIR.

 

16 hours ago, geraghtyg said:

If you go to 3:35 on THIS youtube video at Malahide from 22nd August 1993, you can see that the first carriage (a BFK) is still a corridor as you can the sliding doors inside. Incidentally, the train itself is a very long 13 piece GAA special.......probably about as long as they got!

At 3:22 in THIS Youtube video from July 1993, you can see that the first two carriages are BFKs. What's noteworthy is that if you view the train from the other side as it leaves Drogheda station @ 4:10, you can see that the windows are of the non-opening variety on the first carriage as this carriage became an executive coach with air conditioning. I suspect that this is the same carriage mentioned in the other video.

Personally I can't see anything! I'll take your word for it.

 

I looked through the first three editions of the ITG books, the 1998 Platform 5 and journals 1987-1998 and all agree there was no compartment stock on NIR after 1991 unless an error has crept in.

My thinking is the vehicle jhb travelled in could have been the Brake Executive First as it is simply listed as "loose seating as required" and compartments would probably be preferred for the likes of business meetings on board etc.

 

[airfixfan]

Was there not an ITG Railtour about 1991 that used the Executive coach as part of the NIR Mk 2 set of coaches used?

[Galteemore]

Is that the one to Westport or thereabouts? If so I was on it and distinctly remember sitting in the exec coach for part of the journey back. 

[airfixfan]

Yes you are right was to Westport over most of what is now the WRC

 

[geraghtyg]

23 hours ago, Galteemore said:

Is that the one to Westport or thereabouts? If so I was on it and distinctly remember sitting in the exec coach for part of the journey back. 

I don't suppose you would have any photos of video of the interior of it?

[Galteemore]

11 minutes ago, geraghtyg said:

I don't suppose you would have any photos of video of the interior of it?

Sorry - only the vaguest memory of an office-like set up with comfy chairs. In those pre-iPhone days I didn’t bother much with photos - which I regret given some of the things I now remember as lost treasures such as Bray-Greystones push-pulls.

Edited October 23, 2020 by Galteemore

[hexagon789]

I haven't watched this in a while but if memory serves the Executive Brake is seen in this programme from the BBC - Great Railway Journeys: https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p03rdrdk/great-railway-journeys-series-2-4-michael-palin-derry-to-kerry

[geraghtyg]

1 hour ago, hexagon789 said:

I haven't watched this in a while but if memory serves the Executive Brake is seen in this programme from the BBC - Great Railway Journeys: https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p03rdrdk/great-railway-journeys-series-2-4-michael-palin-derry-to-kerry

I couldn't view it as I'm not in the UK but I think I found the same programme on youtube and if so, the interview in the 1st class NIR Enterprise carriage is just a regular MkII non-AC open First.

[jhb171achill]

For what’s it worth the one I recall wasn’t an a/c one.... it had ordinary windows.

[hexagon789]

15 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

For what’s it worth the one I recall wasn’t an a/c one.... it had ordinary windows.

As far as I know the Brake First Executive retained pressure vent Mk2-style sliding toplight ventilators and not sealed windows.

8 hours ago, geraghtyg said:

I couldn't view it as I'm not in the UK but I think I found the same programme on youtube and if so, the interview in the 1st class NIR Enterprise carriage is just a regular MkII non-AC open First.

Apologies, it's been that long since I watched it. I thought there was a compartment but obviously not.

[geraghtyg]

15 hours ago, hexagon789 said:

As far as I know the Brake First Executive retained pressure vent Mk2-style sliding toplight ventilators and not sealed windows.

Apologies, it's been that long since I watched it. I thought there was a compartment but obviously not.

In the second Youtube video from Drogheda that I posted in this thread last Wednesday evening, what is suspected to be the Brake First Executive (1st carriage in the consist) has sliding toplight ventilators on the corridor side and sealed windows on the compartment side, making this a very unique carriage. 

As for the apology, absolutely no need for it  Would have been very easy to mistake something like that which you've not seen for a long time.

[hexagon789]

54 minutes ago, geraghtyg said:

In the second Youtube video from Drogheda that I posted in this thread last Wednesday evening, what is suspected to be the Brake First Executive (1st carriage in the consist) has sliding toplight ventilators on the corridor side and sealed windows on the compartment side, making this a very unique carriage. 

Still full sized windows or the reduced height Mk2 AC style?

54 minutes ago, geraghtyg said:

As for the apology, absolutely no need for it  Would have been very easy to mistake something like that which you've not seen for a long time.

It was even longer than I thought - about 10 years since I last saw it!

Edited October 24, 2020 by hexagon789

[geraghtyg]

36 minutes ago, hexagon789 said:

Still full sized windows or the reduced height Mk2 AC style?

 

Looked at the video again, the sealed window side (compartment side) are reduced height D/E/F style whilst the sliding toplight ventilators on the corridor side are full sized.

[hexagon789]

2 hours ago, geraghtyg said:

Looked at the video again, the sealed window side (compartment side) are reduced height D/E/F style whilst the sliding toplight ventilators on the corridor side are full sized.

An intriguing and probably unique combination.

[murphaph]

Can somebody explain what pressure ventilation means in this context. I tried googling but the term is not specific enough I reckon.

How did it work in a railway context?

[hexagon789]

29 minutes ago, murphaph said:

Can somebody explain what pressure ventilation means in this context. I tried googling but the term is not specific enough I reckon.

How did it work in a railway context?

Forced air ventilation might be a better term. Vents on the roof take in air forced by the movement of the train through the air. This is then heated as necessary and directed via ducts to vents in the passenger accommodation. Windows within the passenger accommodation also have sliding ventilators (moveable segments in the glass) which allow more ventilation in hot weather. These were marked on British stock with arrows to show how far they could be opened to allow fresh air in but without draughts if wished.

It's worth noting that while the British Mk2D and 2E stock had sealed windows they actually were still pressure ventilated with the air-con system fitted on top essentially. This proved to be rather poor in service, the Mk2F stock therefore had no pressure ventilation system and had fully integrated air-con, this system was also used on the Irish Mk2D stock and later on both British and Irish Mk3 stock.

Hopefully that helps a bit? I'm not always that great at explaining things!

[murphaph]

It helps a lot as always

I was missing the crucial aspect of the air being forced into the passenger space via the train's movement.

[hexagon789]

3 minutes ago, murphaph said:

It helps a lot as always

I was missing the crucial aspect of the air being forced into the passenger space via the train's movement.

I believe that's how it works, I can't see how else it would without an air-conditioning plant to do the job of sucking the air in.

[seagoebox]

sometime back geraghtyg was looking for a pic of the executive saloon, here goes, taken at Belfast Central on 5th July 1989

[jhb171achill]

Wonder where that large pic of a 111 went to!

Very "officey" looking - reminds me of my former employment life.......good riddance!