CIE palvan dimensions.

[patrick]

Does anybody know if the Irish palvans were larger than the BR version? With a bit of work the Parkside kit can be converted into a reasonable representation of the CIE version but to my eyes they look under size when seen alongside the provincial wagons H van. In prototype photos the palvans seem larger.

[flange lubricator]

I dont know the dimensions but they were certainly higher

 

[jhb171achill]

On 23/1/2021 at 8:03 PM, patrick said:

Does anybody know if the Irish palvans were larger than the BR version? With a bit of work the Parkside kit can be converted into a reasonable representation of the CIE version but to my eyes they look under size when seen alongside the provincial wagons H van. In prototype photos the palvans seem larger.

I don't have the dimensions, Patrick, but I am just adding that I have a Parkside palvan myself, and I have to say that it is so undersized that I don't run it - yes, there's a significant difference - the British one just doesn't look right on an Irish layout to me.

[Mayner]

The apparent difference in size between the Irish and BR Palvans appears to be mainly due to to a difference in roof profile arising from the use of pressed steel ends on the CIE 26000 series wagons in a similar manner to the apparent difference in height between the ex-GNR  Bagged Cement Wagons and the 'standard' GSWR/GSR/CIE covered wagon.

The actual body height and width of the 3 wagons are very close the Irish Covered Wagon and Parkside model appear to have similar roof profiles

The Parkside model appears to be based on the early BR Palvans with plywood ends introduced in the early 1950s

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brpalvan

The bodywork of the CIE wagons appear ton have more in common with the later "Palshock" some of which were fitted with a sliding door arrangement not dissimilar to the CIE wagons.

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brpalshocvan.

The CIE pallet wagons would be challenging to model 3 different end profiles were used within a relatively small class of wagons running on Bulleid triangulated underframe spring dampers and British style independent either side brakes similar to the ex-GNR vans and private owner tank wagons.

It might while trying a mix and match between a Parkside Palvan and BR standard van, it might be worth contacting Peco at one time Parkside supplied sides and ends from kits separately at shows and exhibitions.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Mayner

[flange lubricator]

For those of you who have access to the IRRS photos on Flickr there is a  great picture of 18828 a CIE H van one of the 18762-18861 batch built 1958 , 18828 was one of 15 fitted with vacuum brakes 1961/62 and pressed steel ends and sliding doors , a forerunner of the 1964 introduced Palvans 26000 but the dimenions are more similar to the standard H van , the 18762 series were painted green with flying snail  black ends for their use on passanger  trains , eventually they would be painted standard grey. 

[patrick]

I agree with John's comments about the roof profile. On this model I added a layer of plasticard to the roof to raise the height somewhat. I think it improves the model overall even at the cost of the over scale roof thickness being apparent on the ends.

 

 

Edited November 29, 2021 by patrick

[flange lubricator]

9 minutes ago, patrick said:

I agree with John's comments about the roof profile. On this model I added a layer of plasticard to the roof to raise the height somewhat. I think it improves the model overall even at the cost of the over scale roof thickness being apparent on the ends.

 

 

I did sonething similar by adding a 1mmx1mm piece under the roof to have the same effect .

[patrick]

I should mention that the brown van has the ends from a Parkside 12 ton van whereas the grey one uses the ends from the palvan kit.

[jhb171achill]

There were actually at least three variants of end detailing on those vans, that I can think of. Also at least three types of doors - you've depicted two of them nicely!

 

[flange lubricator]

Some out of the box

 

[patrick]

For comparison,  left to right, palvan with 12 ton van end, with altered end as supplied with the kit and the Parkside 12 ton van. The 12 ton van comes with two different ends. The ends with the lighter buffers are correct for the 12 ton van the heavier ones best resemble the pal van ones. 

Edited November 29, 2021 by patrick

[DiveController]

19 hours ago, flange lubricator said:

Some out of the box

 

THat's a lovely shot for someone wanting to produce a three pack pallet van 

[flange lubricator]

4 hours ago, DiveController said:

THat's a lovely shot for someone wanting to produce a three pack pallet van 

Wink Wink Nudge Nudge Know what I mean!

[seagoebox]

I don't know the dimensions of the BR vans, the CIE Pal -Van interior dimensions were 16' 8" long by 7' 8"wide, the sliding door opening max dimensions were 8' 6" wide by 6' and half an inch high.

The height from the top of the rail to the bottom of the wagon frame was 3'  9.5", the wheelbase was 10' and the tare weight was 7.45 tons, with a carrying capacity of  12 tons.

In comparison to the earlier series of covered goods wagon, its interior dimensions were the same at 16'8" long by 7' 5.5" wide, internal height was 7' 3.5", the doors when both open were 4' 8"

Height from the top of the rail to the bottom of the wagon frame was 3' 11.25"The tare weight was 6.50 tons, carrying capacity the same at 12 tons ( 15 of the older vans had sliding doors similar to those on the later Pal-Van series)

[flange lubricator]

Still pondering the answer to this question from studying various pictures the CIE Palvans were certainly taller than the standard 12 ton standard covered van which is 11'5", this excellent picture from J M Allen of a loose coupled goods which has a Palvan next to the loco illustrates the point very well the Palvan to my eye seems to be the same height as the 181 class which is 12'6" to the top of the exhaust manifold. Not very scientific but in the absence of an actual drawing might be the best we can get.

 

Edited July 3, 2023 by flange lubricator

[seagoebox]

pal van 1.pdf

pal van 2.pdf

[flange lubricator]

3 hours ago, seagoebox said:

pal van 1.pdf 940.67 kB · 7 downloads

pal van 2.pdf 485.72 kB · 5 downloads

Great additional information Seagoebox .