Mol_PMB

I am aware what type it is - I took the photo and travelled on railtour behind it. However, I disagree that it is irrelevant to the discussion of CIE's early diesel traction and @Mayner's original question about the Sulzers and CIE's early diesel plans. CIE 1100/1101 and the proposed six large twin-engined locos used Sulzer engines; in the mid-1930s their LDA series was one of the first European designs to evolve into something specifically designed for rail traction. The Swiss Bm4/4ii locos of 1939 were one of these early applications of Sulzer engines to rail traction. When CIE and their potential suppliers were investigating options in the early 1940s, they would have been a key reference. In J.J. Leckey's article on CIE's First Diesel Programme these Swiss locos get a specific mention, not just for the Sulzer engine but also their Brown-Boveri electrical equipment. Alongside 1100 and 1101, in 1945 CIE decided to order a 4-car diesel electric passenger train and this was intended to use the same Brown-Boveri electrical equipment as in these Swiss locos. The plan for the 4-car diesel unit was cancelled, but it does demonstrate their relevance to the early designs for Ireland. It's true that Bulleid had a strong preference for EMD designs for good reasons, and EMD initially proposed a 'type EX' 600hp A1A-A1A with styling similar to their 'BL2' for the US market.

That's a wonderful mental image! With the demise of Markits and the long delays at Ultrascale, I wonder whether this type of wheel be suitable for the 21mm gauge conversion?

This may also be useful: CIE 101 class, 1100, 1101, sulzer in eire This was an early Sulzer diesel loco from 1939, which has some family resemblance (curved cab front, 3 windows) to the Sulzer-engined locos built by BRCW for British Railways (e.g. Class 33) but nothing much in common with the Irish Sulzers (even though the B101s were also built by BRCW) so trying to infer a styling or appearance from contemporaries may be a flawed approach.

IRRS Journal Vol.14 No. 86, October 1981, contains two articles of relevance. 'Sulzer locomotives of CIE' by D Renehan and 'CIE's first diesel programme' by J J Leckey. No diagrams or artists impressions but some useful background. The book on CC1 has a few paragraphs (page 25). There seems to be rather more information published on the GNR's planned diesel fleet than CIE's early plans.

That's very interesting, because I had been puzzling over the arrangement of that second coach in Ernie's photo. This is a similar vehicle, quite possibly the same one: Also interesting to note that the one at Downpatrick has had a bogie swap and lost its footboards, changing the appearance somewhat. I think there were a variety of layouts for this 'family' of GSWR corridor carriages, although I'm fairly sure that the thirds were the most numerous. However, as yet I haven't found a list of types or numbers, nor any diagrams or drawings. I have an IRRS journal with a good article on GSR carriages, which mentions the thirds that were being built in the GSWR/GSR transition period. I don't have an equivalent article on GSWR carriages although I suspect there is something on that topic in the IRRS archives. The book 'Irish Broad Gauge Carriages', whilst useful, has a scope too broad to go into much detail on individual types. Based on photos... The full thirds were 1290 to 1322; plenty of photo links for these above; here's Ernie's photo of the corridor side of 1312: The RPSI has a full first 1142, the compartment side seen here: There was also a group of composites with two first class compartments in the middle, which included 2091 and 2094: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509172215 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509299340 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511165801 However, this appears to be a different sort of composite: This full brake 2544 may also be from the same family of vehicles: I'm not sure if there were brake thirds (or similar) of this family of corridor coaches - quite possibly. Introduced in the 1910s/20s, some lasted into the 1970s - a good 50-year life. They would have carried liveries of the GSWR and GSR, through two shades of CIE green, with the later survivors ending their lives in black and tan. So they might have a fairly wide appeal as a model. In the CIE era these GSWR corridor coaches could turn up in almost any sort of train - long distance, suburban or branch passenger/mixed trains. Hang them behind your 800, A class, C class, G class, J15, whatever!

I will be in Ireland in a few weeks time so there may still be an option there.

I’m keen - can you post to UK though? cheers, Mol

Thanks, that's very useful info! Here's a very nice photo of a timber train at Fenit. I'm saving my money for a C class (or three). I'm working on compiling a list of the various different freight traffics on the pier, and how they were carried. Also photo links where possible. Certainly open wagons with coal or timber, sometimes more sensitive cargo sheeted with tarps as you say - grain was another imported cargo which features in the Kennelly archive, in sacks and being loaded onto road transport but it could have easily gone by rail instead. A lot of photos show vans too: Fish was a major traffic in some years, I think I can justify a few vac-braked H vans to be loaded with fish and attached to the night mail from Tralee. Latterly the main export was Liebherr cranes, and that's still the case - there's a ship at Fenit right now loading crane parts. Photos suggest that those mostly came by road to Fenit even while the railway was still in use, but I am going to apply Rule 1. In 'Rails Around Dublin' (Donal Murray) page 70 there's a super photo of a train of Liebherr crane components at North Wall - the girders mounted on 25436 series flat wagons, overhanging the ends, and spaced apart by Bulleid 4-wheel flats used as runners. The date is about 1970. I have the ingredients for this in model form. I have also been looking at the types of ships which served Fenit and wondering whether my layout design should be increased in width to include a vessel...

And it's a proper 'Rule 1' collection - a whole host of different gauges, eras and regions of Ireland. Though if I had to pick a bit of the collection to model it might be the DeLorean overtaking the Bessbrook & Newry tramcar... (Are they still near each other and separate from the main railway hall? It's been a long time since I visited)

Not far off - for comparison this is a former GSR carriage which was preserved by the RPSI in GSR livery: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511260053

At least one 6-wheeler in each of these: JMR_GSR_802_Kingsbridge_l1940s | [Photographer: John Macartn… | Flickr RNC_GSR_802_Limerick_Jct_22_May_1949 | [Photographer: Robin … | Flickr GNR set in Cork: DLGH_GSR_802_Glanmire_Rd_21_June_1951 | [Photographer: David… | Flickr Pullman in this set? RNC_GSR_801_Hazelhatch_4_May_1955 | [Photographer: Robin N C… | Flickr Typical mix of panelled and flush bogie stock: JoM_GSR_800_Straffan_m1950s (2) | [Photographer: John O'Mear… | Flickr "I'm Spartacus 800!" KAM_GSR_GNR_800_801_Inchicore_08_July_1963 | [Photographer: … | Flickr

Perhaps IRM need to add one of these to the product range - perfect for the Queens, and remained in use until about 1970. Four liveries to offer... GSWR Corridor Third - Irish Models - Irish Railway Modeller

In response to your post I have had a look at the photos of these. They are remarkably complex and the frame and axlebox arrangement is very unusual, which would be a challenge in most scales. Although the main frames are plate frames the full height of the loco, the axleboxes are mounted in a separate set of bar frames which may form part of the suspension. The locos are also tiny. What scale/gauge combination were you thinking of? The prototype was 1'10" gauge and because of the position of the wheels immediately inside the frames and the transmission arrangement with vertical rods you couldn't use a track gauge wider than prototype without affecting the whole shape of the loco. 7mm scale on 12mm track? In that scale it ought to be 12.83mm but 12mm is an established gauge and would allow slightly broader wheel tyres. Or you could have something a bit bigger: Guinness loco G3

Just a thought. Arguably, Phoenix is missing from that list. So are the surviving narrow gauge Guinness steam locos.

I found this quite useful summary of the survivors, for anyone trying to list the intervening types: https://trainstobeyond.com/irish-preservation/

In the Hunslet video there was a teaser about the Peckett... But there are 40 major railway exhibits at Cultra, lots to choose from, including some nice small and medium-sized tank engines.

As yet, I haven't found a photo of an 800 hauling a Park Royal, but I'm sure it happened. I'll say it again, the triangulated underframe under the Park Royals would form a perfect basis for some of the other CIE 1950s carriages, like the first one in the photo at Mallow in the post above. With tongue firmly in cheek, there's only one thing missing from this train now: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511409908/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511409843/ And with tongue even more firmly in cheek, are you sure you've made number 800 the right shape? I'm no expert on these locos, I'm just looking at photos: Thurles 1961, no snail: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53453950801/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53468545416/ Inchicore 1963, no snail: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53505733957 Amiens St 1964, no snail: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54251716485

Generally they were used on the heavy trains on the Dublin-Cork main line, such as the day mails. They would be formed mostly of bogie stock but a variety of types and styles including GSWR, GSR and CIE types according to date. Here's 801 in CIE days with a rake of 1950s CIE stock: But in 1946 it was a right old mix of stock: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511573460/ This is a reasonably modern rake apart from the mail van, but includes some GSR passenger coaches as well as CIE: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511881435/

An eBay purchase a few weeks ago on this theme - a nice clear slide of 25075 in orange livery, green-carded at Limerick: This wagon was in the second batch, and would have been delivered in grey livery in 1965. The photo dates from 1979 by which time it had been repainted with orange tank and grey frame, and then had a chance to get fairly grubby. Reviewing the list of 10 items as I did up-thread: W-irons: These are W-shaped rather than triangular plates. Solebar reinforcements: rectangular plates welded to the front of the channel section about the W-irons provide extra strength. Solebar eyes: These are fitted to the front of the solebar reinforcement plates. Bufferbeam ends: These are longer than the first batch, they protrude beyond the buffers. Vacuum pipes: These are high, on an upstand above the bufferbeam. Braked end treadplate: There isn't one. Other details at the braked end: Difficult to see in this view, but it seems to be just the vacuum pipe. Tank number: 25075 carries tank number 075; it has been renumbered from the original. Handbrake: this is a hand lever. However, it's not the later standard type - it has a Morton clutch on the vee hanger, rather than reaching past the vee hanger to a link arrangement. Tank support brackets: They have vertical ends rather than the chamfered ends of the first batch. What's particularly useful about this photo is that it clearly shows the as-built brake configuration of the second batch, which was different from the other batches and was later modified to match the last batch. One day, when I get through my wagon backlog, I plan to modify an IRM bubble to represent this batch.

I could be tempted - my willpower is about as strong as a chocolate fireguard and my bank account has just swerved a major expense at IRM towrs! On the other hand I do have quite a backlog of stuff to build, so no rush. How is your re-stocking programme going? Is the 10t brake van this type? I must confess I haven't yet found any photos of them still in use in the 1960s but then I haven't looked everywhere yet; there are a fair few photos of them in the 1950s but I guess most were replaced by the 30t brakes built in 1960. N.B. the colour photo above shows van 8554 with 'eau de nil' lettering. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54253429200 Hopefully there are still a couple of those GNR 10t goods vans with my name on them too. I quite fancy doing one of them in this rare 'snail on brown' livery: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54257197990

Well here are a couple of opportunities for limited editions... Compared to the normal Black'n'Tan livery, this has a thicker white line, and the orange band isn't as deep, resulting in the running number being on the black portion: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54373564366 Whereas this one has a normal orange band but the painter got really carried away with the white paint. What a find! Thanks IRRS Archives :-) https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54372688542 I think this is the first item of railway rolling stock I have seen carrying the block lettered C.I.E. that was used on road vehicles and containers for a couple of years between the snail and the roundel. On the Park Royal it's part of a slogan, but the C.I.E. is in a different typeface to the rest of the slogan, similar to that used on contemporary containers, as seen here: Also note the class numbers on the doors on both of the above Park Royals, which could be seen in the early 1960s on both Green and Black'n'Tan livery. Here's one of Ernie's photos of a green Park Royal with class number: Also from Ernie, a more typical Black'n'Tan livery with class numbers: Hopefully Railtec will produce us some transfers for these, in the appropriate colours for the two liveries.

Beta-testing comments... Threading the rail through is very easy. At first I thought it was too easy and that the rail wouldn't be held securely enough, but once it's in it seems to stay put and there is good resistance to rail roll or gauge spread. So that's all good. The gauge is nominally 21mm or perhaps very slightly over - it might be closer to 21.2mm. Better to be wide than narrow, it will help rigid wheelbases on curves. Also good. The top faces of the sleepers are slightly textured as a consequence of the manufacturing process, and there are some minor blemishes, but actually it looks pretty much like wood grain with the odd knot hole, and I think that once installed it will look much better than a perfectly smooth surface. Again, a consequence of the manufacturing process is that there are very fine plastic 'hairs' sprouting from the moulding in places. As yet I haven't found a good way of getting rid of these - they are extremely fine. Any hints from the other beta-testers would be welcome! Regardless of that last minor issue, this is a very quick way to produce 21mm gauge flexitrack. Bravo!

Just a note on the numeral style on the front of CIE diesels in the supertrain livery, since it came up elsewhere. On 141/181 class, the number on the front was on an orange background, and the early repaints in 1972/73 used wider numerals with a seriffed 1, white shaded black, the same as on the sides. Later repaints had narrower sans-serif white numerals without shading. Locos with the shaded serif style included: 141, 148, 156, 158, 160, 163, 173, 175, 182-190. It is possible there were a few more, but of the 141 class they were a minority. Some of these locos were still carrying this style in 1980, others had been repainted and received the unshaded numerals. In fact Ernie's photo of 141 shows it still bore this style in 1982: However, many of the 141s stayed in black'n'tan until 1975-77 and these locos had the unshaded numerals from the start. Here's 167 in 1977, fairly freshly repainted in supertrain livery - it had been BnT until then: On the 001 class, the number on the front was on a black background, and the first loco repainted (001) had numerals in white shaded orange. A few other early 001 repaints appear to have had the narrower sans-serif numerals, with orange shading - here's 044 with what appears to be that scheme: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510419722/ Other repaints had narrower sans-serif white numerals without shading. 002 and 031 were two of the earlier repaints of 001s in 1973, and are seen here at Inchicore freshly painted and not yet released to traffic: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53569590047/ 008 was another early 001 class repaint in 1973, and was destroyed that same year. Here is the hulk, again it has the narrower sans-serif white numerals without shading: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511314466/ 003 and 004 were repainted around 1974, and are seen here in 1977 looking a bit tatty, with narrower sans-serif white numerals without shading: 211, 215 and 233 were early repaints of the former C class in supertrain livery in 1973, and they had the narrower sans-serif white numerals without shading. Here's 215 in 1975: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570883400/ The earlier 101 class repaints and had a different variation - the wider numerals with seriffed 1, without shading (or it might be black shading on black paint), here's 107: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570644283/ The early 121 repaints seem to have been similar, wider numerals without shading, here's 122 in the mid-1970s: And here's 123 with the same type of number in 1975, alongside 176 with the narrower sans-serif white numerals without shading: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570770699/ As yet I have not found any photos of 101, 121 or 201 class locos with orange shaded numbers on the front. There may have been a few - can anyone post a photo here to prove it? Later, the cab front numerals on all classes were standardised on the narrower sans-serif white numerals without shading, though there were a few odd exceptions with mismatched numbers.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that then. My study of hundreds of photos suggests otherwise.

Very briefly, the industrialisation of the Irish turf harvesting started in the mid-1920s, at Turraun, using German equipment on a fairly small scale. This used a narrow-gauge railway with 2 locos and 24 wagons. It proved uneconomic but continued in use for a decade or so. Lullymore was the next bog developed, by the Peat Fuel Company in the mid-1930s. They also constructed a briquette factory. Their equipment was mostly designed and made in GB. At that stage a lot of the machinery was still experimental, although some turned out to be very successful, such as the giant Garrett Disc Ditcher of 1935 (that behemoth on the front cover above). It's important to note that once you have started to develop a bog by cutting drains, there is a considerable lag time (several years) before the turf being dry enough to harvest, or indeed before the surface will support anything heavy like harvesting machinery. By 1939 the Peat Fuel Company was in financial trouble, having invested a huge amount of money and not really got to the stage of being able to harvest anything. Meanwhile, the Turf Development Board had been established in the mid-1930s by the Irish government; they had a much wider remit including marketing turf and encouraging hand-harvested turf. But the future was in machine-won turf and they visited Germany and Russia to learn how it was done. They started to develop the bog at Clonsast in 1936, using machinery supplied from Germany (ordered in a hurry as the war clouds were on the horizon). Although the machines arrived, there were many delays in commissioning it and production didn't start until 1939, and produced disappointing quantities that were uneconomic. The German machines weren't ideally suited to Irish conditions. The TDB acquired Turraun in 1935 and Lullymore in 1939, and also started to develop Glenties, which got its first Ruston in 1940. Other bogs where development was beginning in 1939 were Lyrecrumpane, Timahoe, Attymon and Carrigcannon. Some were more successful than others, but none of the bogs were economically successful at this stage. Whilst production did increase during the war, supply of machines and spare parts was near-impossible, and there were a lot of problems. In 1946, the TDB was reconstituted as the BnM and there was a large expansion in the late 1940s and 1950s. The early narrow-gauge locos used in the turf industry (pre-BnM) included: German Ruhrthaler diesels, one of which survives at Dromod. This was built around 1936 and later became LM11. Motor Rail 'Simplex' diesels, details not known, did not survive to receive LM numbers in 1954 Ruston & Hornsby diesels, one in 1939 and two in 1940 (later LM13/14/15) all for Clonsast, also another in 1940 (later LM16) for Glenties. Whitcomb diesel, built 1945 (later LM12) for Kilberry