Mol_PMB

Nice work! It’s a great location to model in any era, loads of character in the architecture and quite tightly enclosed by the buildings. I assume you have seen the photos of the works on the NLI archive website? Mostly 1960s and quite a few interior shots as well as the exterior. Mol

Detailing up this brake van is rather fun, it helps that it's a great model to start with. Eventually I'd like a 30-tonner as well - IRM seem to keep ruling them out, which is a pity. Maybe they'll surprise us?

Wonderful, many thanks. I'll use that interior scheme which is much the same as used on British Rail goods brakes too. Must have been the practical choice! My chosen prototype has some unusual features on the (grey) external livery though - the area above and below the ducket is grey rather than black, and the roundel is tan. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511648559

Was there a standard interior colour scheme for these brake vans? With the nicely detailed handbrake, vacuum setter and stove I feel I ought to paint the inside, though to be honest it's not very visible from the outside. The only interior photos I've found are on this page, which suggests a dark floor and pale walls and ceiling, red handbrake wheel on black column, heatproof panels behind the stove but perhaps also pale: https://www.abandonedni.com/single-post/mind-the-gap I'm idly wondering about an interior light too, which might also provide some illumination in the side lamps. Is it worth it? Probably not.

I'm just detailing up my kit example, it's an excellent model but I decided to detail it with handrails, lamp irons, an extra strip at the base of the sides, and a finer chimney for the stove. Now, I know these vans were built in several batches by the GSR and CIE, and there are detail differences between batches. But I'm trying to work out whether I should fit roof vents. This is the prototype I'm modelling, but the photo has a very messy background and it's hard to determine the roof details: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511648559 This is a GSR one and it clearly has 2 torpedo vents in the roof as well as the stove chimney (Ernie photo on Flickr): This is also a GSR one and it clearly has 1 torpedo vent in the roof as well as the stove chimney (NLI photo on Flickr). The vent position appears to be similar to the image above, but only the vent further from the chimney is fitted, and it is oriented laterally rather than longitudinally: This is an earlier CIE-built van seen later in life in 1974 and it clearly has 1 torpedo vent in the roof (same position as above) as well as the stove chimney (IRRS photo on Flickr): https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570450936 Another 1970s photo, this time from Ernie, shows another early CIE-built van and it appears to have a pair of vents, same positions as in the first photo, but not the same type of vent: Probably around 1970 photo, this from the IRRS archive, shows a later CIE-built van and I think we can just see the top of a pair of vents, same positions as in the first photo: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53527285226 On the other hand, there are plenty of photos of vans which definitely have no roof vents, such as this from Brian Flannigan which is a GSR-built example: Or indeed this in the IRRS Archive which is one of the later CIE batch: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509010781 Knowing how goods guards spent much of their life in a struggle to keep warm, and newspapers were an essential accessory to fold up and plug any draughts, I can't imagine that roof vents were seen as an advantage by the users of these vans. On the other hand, there would be some benefit of avoiding carbon monoxide poisoning from the stove. Maybe the brake vans were all built with them but they were removed from most vans over time? Has anyone got any more info on the roof vents? There are of course a whole host of other detail differences between the vans, either from build or subsequent modification, but I won't get carried away with those now. Cheers, Mol

Now that is an excellent observation, John! Because B+I's Lancashire Flats were 24' long: I should have read all the information I posted a bit more carefully! The fleet list above is from 1971, the same year as these photos with the 'framework'.

Lovely! The butcher's van in the background is making me hungry - perhaps a fry will be in order tomorrow morning?

Gosh, is this weathering supposed to add value? Noting that Rails themselves have brand new, upgraded design Murphy 141s for £40 less... https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/196924966977 They might have got almost that grubby in the IE era but not in CIE days.

Great persistence and a lovely result with that rivetting tool. Looks much better than the NWSL version I bought 20 years ago and struggled with.

The Templot track is based on a chair that plugs into a rectangular slot in the sleeper. In reality the chair is quite a substantial casting and this gives it strength in its own right in model form, so it can be a separate component. With spiked flat bottom rail there isn't any form of chair, and often no baseplate (at the most, a small thin one). It would be more difficult to create a robust rail fastening as a separate component to represent the spikes without it becoming too heavy and visually intrusive. My experiment in 4mm scale used laser-cut sleeper bases with spike holes pre-'drilled' with the laser, and Peco track pins as the spikes. They're still a bit heavy though, but not too bad from normal viewing distance once weathered in a bit: My method is also very time-consuming to lay as it needs hundreds of pins, so I'm interested to see how the 3D printed versions work out. I might decide I ought to be using bullhead track anyway, it depends on which prototype I end up going for. Mol

Now, whilst on the subject of early containers, I would like to talk about the odd frameworks that are seen fitted to some 4-wheel container wagons in the early 1970s. I'd better state up front that this is conjecture based on photos, and I'd welcome any facts to prove or disprove my thoughts. I'm sure many forum members will be familiar with this image of a B+I liner train, which is included in at least 3 editions of Jane's Freight Containers as well as several other publications from the early 1970s. In this photo, alternate wagons have a strange oversize framework instead of a container: It's worth noting that there are other photos of B+I and Bell liner trains from the same period that don't have these things, just containers, like these three different trains pictured in the nli archive dated 1971: https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000307812 https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000308267 https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000307819 Now, here's a link to a very interesting photo by Jonathan Allen on Flickr, which shows a mixed freight heading south from Lisburn around 1972. The third and fourth vehicles are 4-wheel container flats, both carrying early Bell containers. One is normal, and the other has one of the strange frameworks with the container loaded inside it. There is negligible difference between the heights of the containers, suggesting that the framework doesn't have much thickness at floor level under the container: However, the fact that a container can be loaded inside the framework, apparently with a bit of space around it, shows that the framework must be significantly larger in footprint than the nominal 20'x8' of the wagon floor. Being longer than the wagon floor probably meant that the couldn't be loaded on consecutive wagons without fouling each other, hence the alternate marshalling of the train in the first photo. So now we come to this excellent photo uploaded by Wrenneire in this thread https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/8148-freight-containers-irish-oo-gauge-40ft-or-20-ft/page/3/, which shows the frameworks more clearly: The first thing to note is that the frameworks carry the wagon number; the nearer one is 25904, one of the later examples of the 25436 series. This strongly suggests that they are attached to the wagon, rather than being a 'swapbody' or other intermodal container which would be numbered independently of the wagon (* see below). It's also interesting that there is something loaded inside the framework, being craned in or out. The load appears to be a 'Lancashire Flat', laden with crates and sheeted over with an orange and black sheet. Very similar to the one on the adjacent road vehicle. So, as with the train at Lisburn, the framework is intended to have a container loaded inside it. So what were they for? Why not just load the containers directly on the wagons, which would have been perfectly viable? I suggest that they were a security measure, intended to prevent theft of the containers' contents, or other tampering. The framework would prevent access to any container loaded inside it, because the doors couldn't be opened (whether side or end door). I think they were deliberately made to signficantly overhang the ends of the wagons, so that they would also prevent the end doors of containers on adjacent wagons being opened sufficiently to access the contents. They would also provide some additional protection to sheeted loads on Lancashire Flats (as in Wrenneire's photo) just by making it more difficult to access and handle the loads. Whatever they were, they seem to have been quite short-lived, perhaps an unsuccessful experiment? Any more info welcome! * Note: the CIE swapbodies had their own numbers; the only sensible approach as they were designed to be swapped between wagons, as shown by these photos from Brian Flannigan on Flickr: Keg swapbody number 340, in 1971: Pallet swapbody, number only partially visible but ends in 53, in 1971:

Now, I mentioned earlier that the CIE container asset listings in the annual reports changed in 1974, becoming less detailed. The categories were reduced to: Rail: Covered Rail: Lancashire Flat Rail: Other Road: Covered Road: Lancashire Flat There was no split between ISO and pre-ISO, and the 'other' category swept up all the less common types. The distribution is shown in the graph below, through to the split of CIE in 1987 and a little beyond. The 1973 totals for rail and road are also shown to provide a comparison with the previous graphs: Between 1973 and 1974 there was negligible change in the totals for road and rail, so it is likely that the 1974 fleet was much the same as for 1973, just categorised differently. The overall trends from 1974 onwards are: The road container fleet gradually reduced each year until it reached zero in 1990. It seems unlikely that there were many new containers built for the road fleet in this period. The rail container fleet increased significantly in the 1974-1979 period, and then gradually declined slightly. Among the rail containers, the 'covered' category increased by 250% from 487 to a peak of 1703. Among the rail containers, the 'other' category doubled from 198 to a peak of 420. 'Lancashire Flats' gradually decreased throughout the period. The only Jane's I have for this period is the 1982 edition. That doesn't have a detailed fleet listing for CIE but states: "A total of 2035 containers and 323 flats are owned" [total 2358]. Comparing with the data in the CIE annual report for 1982, and combining road and rail, the totals are 259 Lancashire Flats and 2148 for everything else [total 2405], which isn't too far off considering that the counts may represent different dates and some of the 'others' may have been types of flat. So from 1974 onwards we would expect to see large increases in the numbers of CIE containers, and in the variety of types, but the statistical data from the annual reports and from Jane's don't give us any specifics. We'll have to work it out from photos and I haven't started that study yet! As a taster, this wonderful photo linked from Jonathan Allen on Flickr is dated 1977 and shows a long train of CIE containers: From the front, we have: Side door container, 8'6" high (new type) Side door container, 8'0" high (old type mentioned in previous posts) Bulk Freight container, 8'0" high (new type) Side door container, 8'6" high (new type) Tiltainer, 8'6" high (mentioned in previous posts) Side door container, 8'0" high (old type mentioned in previous posts) Side door container, 8'6" high (new type) Side door container, 8'6" high (new type) Double Side door container, 8'6" high (new type) Side door container, 8'6" high (new type) Side door container, 8'0" high (old type mentioned in previous posts) Tiltainer, 8'6" high (mentioned in previous posts) Open-top half-height container (possibly under the umbrella of the 'Lancashire Flat' group) Side door container, 8'6" high (new type) Tiltainer, 8'6" high (mentioned in previous posts) Side door container, 8'6" high (new type)

Sorry, I missed this excellent photo of a tiltainer from Wrenneire in this thread: https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/8148-freight-containers-irish-oo-gauge-40ft-or-20-ft/page/3/ This does confirm that the sheet and the container numbers matched, and that they were in a 1400 series.

http://www.trainlogistic.com/pt/Comboios/Gabinete/fich_loc1400.htm The bogies are virtually identical (both broad gauge though a couple of inches difference in gauge) and they both have the intercooled 8CSVT engine rated at about 1350hp, with EE generator and traction motors. Start looking at the details and there are several common features - for example the fuel tank within the solebar, and the light clusters.

If I were IRM I'd have used this as an excuse for a trip to Portugal to record the engine sounds of the CP 1400s which were contemporaries, and very similar mechanically and electrically, although very different in appearance. They're still in regular service.

Speaking of wheels makes me wonder - would IRM consider offering a set of 21mm gauge wheelsets as an extra for this loco, in the same way that Accurascale offer EM and P4 wheelsets for their GB locos? https://www.accurascale.com/products/class-37-em-18-2mm-gauge-drop-in-wheel-sets?_pos=1&_sid=4e43ab327&_ss=r https://www.accurascale.com/products/class-31-p4-18-83mm-gauge-wheelsets?_pos=3&_sid=692d586f4&_ss=r

A couple of posts back I described the CIE insulated containers. From Steve Parker on Flickr, here's another view of an insulated container; it appears to be number 2073 or perhaps 2078: Next, the Tiltainer. Introduced in 1973, these were CIE's first 8'6" high containers and there were 100 of them. These were open-topped and mostly open-sided, though they had low drop-sides. They also had supports for a sheet to weatherproof the box. This photo from Ernie dated 1974 shows one of them, almost brand new: This photo from Jonathan Allen on Flickr dated 1975 shows three of them in a train of other CIE containers. Note that the sheets were numbered, probably to match the containers. They appear to be in a CIE 14xx series: Again from Jonathan Allen on Flickr, here's a closer view of half of one, dated 1975: https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/49534056868 I think the later CIE containers with full curtain sides were different from these early 'Tiltainers', although they might have been modified.

As yet I haven't found any images of the early CIE refrigerated containers, so I'll have to pass over those for now. Let's look at the Barley hoppers. There were only 12 of these, introduced about 1970 and I understand they were used for malting barley traffic from Tralee to Guinness in Dublin. Here's an excellent photo by Brian Flannigan on Flickr, dated 1971: Although there weren't many of them, they were unusual enough to attract photographers. Here's an image from elsewhere on this forum: Legible numbers on these images include CIE 480, 482, 487, so I would guess that the number series was CIE 480-492. The IRRS has a photo of some in the yard at Heuston in 1970: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509415685 Whilst by the 1980s one had been repurposed as part of a mobile concrete mixing train: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53527285451

Next, the 100 insulated 20x8x8 boxes, here's a photo (dated 1978) from John Mayner of one of these: There is a clearer monochrome photo of the same type in a contemporary IRRS journal article, and the container in that image is numbered CIE IRL 2041. I'd suggest these were probably in the 2000-2100 series. Incidentally that same article said, "there are containers with side doors (CIE has 200 of them) ... While the CIE stocks of high-capacity containers are at present limited to 200 dry cargo, 100 insulated, and a few "reefer" units..." which helps to confirm the quantities of both these insulated boxes and the side-door dry boxes described in the previous post. The insulated boxes crop up in the background of some IRRS images too https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511775805 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511477583 Intriguingly, and thanks to Wrenneire for posting this, there was a bad attempt at producing one as part of an Irish train set in the pre-IRM days. Shape and style completely wrong, but the number CIE IRL 2007 and tare weight are spot on: Finally, I've posted a link to this photo of B+I Line vessel 'Rolf' before, but look just in front of the ship's bridge and you can see the end of a CIE ISO insulated container, complete with orange roundel: I'm scraping the barrel a bit here for decent photos of the CIE insulated boxes - has anyone got any better ones?

So, let's look at some pictures of these boxes. Firstly, the 200 dry cargo 20x8x8 boxes, here's a great photo (dated 1971) from Brian Flannigan of CIE IRL 1016 as delivered: And I've linked this Jonathan Allen photo before showing lots of them at Limerick. One has a legible number of CIE IRL 1144: https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/49630072656 Here's CIE IRL 1003 later in life, from another thread on this forum: Based on the numbers on these boxes, I'd suggest these were numbered in the CIE IRL 1000-1200 series (not an ISO-format number) Based on the appearance and the numbers provided on the transfers, I think this is the container type represented by the Provincial Wagons resin moulding, although that scales to 8'6" high (later CIE side-door containers were 8'6" high).

I'll now move on to the early CIE ISO containers, again comparing data from the CIE annual reports and Jane's. Only CIE's rail division included ISO containers in their assets in this period; it appears that there were none allocated to the road division. So looking again at the data from the annual reports, the first ISO containers were listed in the 1969 report so probably appeared some time in late 1968 / early 1969. The relevant categories in the graph aren't just the 'ISO' category though, as other ISO types are listed under different descriptions; they include: 'ISO': 39 in 1969 report, 200 by 1971 'Large covered insulated': 30 in 1969 report, 130 by 1972, possibly not all ISO type 'Barley': 12 in 1979 report, no more introduced later 'UIC Tiltainer': 50 in 1973 report Additionally the number of 'Lancashire Flats' continued to increase in the late 1960s and these included a wide variety of types some of which were ISO-compatible. Comparing with Jane's data: Jane's 1968 says "CIE owns 598 containers, and have a few regular container trains". Well CIE's 1968 annual report gives a total of 600 containers owned by the rail division and 598 by the road division, none of them ISO standard. Bear in mind that the dates for these reports may be some months apart so we wouldn't expect identical figures. CIE are either reporting the rail fleet or the road fleet, but not both. Jane's 1971 says "CIE owns more than 1500 containers of varying types and sizes, as well as Lancashire flats". CIE's 1971 annual report gives a total of 1148 containers (including Lancashire Flats) owned by the rail division and 640 by the road division, which do indeed total more than 1500. Jane's also gives a fleet summary comprising: Dry, total 563, comprising 20ft ISO and pre-ISO types Insulated, total 188, comprising 20ft ISO and pre-ISO types Refrigerated, total 5, listed as 20ft ISO Open Top, total 478, listed as 20ft ISO The total fleet is given as 1234 which doesn't match either the road or rail fleets in the annual reports, nor the total. It's also difficult to reconcile the numbers in each category with those given in the annual reports. Jane's 1972 data is easier to interpret because the ISO and non-ISO categories are separated: Focusing on the ISO types: The 200 dry cargo 20x8x8 boxes correlate well with the 'ISO' category owned by the rail division. The 100 insulated 20x8x8 containers also fit well with the rail division's 'Large covered insulated' category if we assume that the earlier 30-odd were pre-ISO and the 100 built from 1971 were ISO. The 3 refrigerated 20x8x8 containers aren't listed in the rail division's fleet, but the road division had a handful of refrigerated containers and the number increased by 3 between 1971-1973. The 335 flats 20x8 represent a subset of the 555 'Lancashire Flats' owned by the rail division, probably those which were ISO-compatible. Illustrated but not included in Jane's list are the Barley hopper containers listed in the annual reports from 1970 onwards. The 1973 Jane's gives a very similar fleet list for CIE's ISO containers, with the addition of 100 Tiltainers 20x8x8.5. These correlate with the new category in the CIE 1973 annual report 'UIC Tiltainer' of which 50 were reported. Perhaps only half the batch had been delivered by then. In the next posts I'll look at each of these types.

I decided to go ahead and build the body while mulling over the chassis options. The sides and ends are stuck together with some internal bracing in the corners. The roof's not fixed yet, but it's starting to look the part: To help me set it square, I took off the handbrake pivots. I'm definitely warming to the idea of doing it as a vac-braked version, as it seems like many of the later survivors were vac braked.

That looks super! The equivalent in 4mm scale would be extremely useful too.

Many thanks John, good thoughts. I'll look into those options. When I built Weshty's GNR brake van kit recently that came with a nice set of etched W irons; not sure if they're available separately but I can find out. My other thought is to use a Parkside LNER 10' wb underframe with clasp brakes, and model a vac brake fitted wagon. Thanks for all the ideas! Mol

Many thanks Brendan, that's good to see how you have approached them. I don't think the cattle wagon underframe is quite the same as the example you have shown, the solebar (moulded as part of the bodyside) is quite thin and it might be tricky to get a strong bond there, considering the forces that W irons get when bending them to fit wheelsets. I think it might be possible to reinforce the joint behind, if I cut away a section of the floor behind each W iron as you have done, but it would have to be quite a small reinforcement to avoid fouling the 21mm gauge wheels. So that might work. I'll do some measuring up. Cheers, Mol