Mol_PMB

The locos are in supertrain livery, so it’s after 1972. Behind the locos is a bogie van, not a TPO. That opens up more options of what type of train it is.

The first is a bogie luggage van, probably one of those converted from passenger stock, mostly early CIE (2562-2591) but some late GSR (2559-2561). The second is a compartment coach, probably CIE early 1950s. Note the toilets near the middle. It's hard to tell from this view whether it's a standard or a composite, but I think there's a door between the toilets making it a standard. Best guess would be one of the 1372-1378 batch of 1954, as it has commonwealth bogies and triangulated underframe. The next two are 64-seat open standards, with only a single toilet window at the end, but they seem to have different cross-section profiles and different bogies so may be different batches. The leading one could be from the 1356-1371 batch of 1953, and the nearer one may be from the 1497-1503 batch of 1962. Then the Park Royal - seems to be a suburban type without toilets. The last is a 32xx series steam heat van converted from passenger stock - some of these retained some of the compartments in passenger use. I think it might be from the 3213-3218 batch. There is no catering car in the train - their roof details are quite distinctive.

Many thanks John, very useful. Interesting to see the different arrangements of vestibules and toilets on the two types, and the high proportion of smoking accommodation. Photographic evidence indicates that the 1429-1448 type were delivered in 'silver' (unpainted aluminium) but the the 1449-1496 type were green from new. Edit: there's a nice close-up view of one end of a 1429-1448 type coach in the book 'Bulleid and the Turf Burner', page 65. This photo dated October 1957 shows some interesting details: The small window in the toilet compartment was frosted, as one would expect, but the adjacent one above the handbasin was clear. The large windows in the saloon had curtains on their lower part, which were hung from a rail just below the opening vents. The panelling and beading of the sides and roof is shown very clearly, also the door furniture. Some of the autumn 1957 tests of CC1 used a full train of these coaches (with a tin van on the back) which must have looked shiny!

Having suffered commuting on those terrible things for many years, I don't have any good words to say about them. And I'm still commuting on 150s, while you lucky Irish sent your 450s to the scrapheap years ago!

Nice work, it's always good to see some modelling going on! It's been too hot here to do much over the weekend, you are inspiring me to get on with some of my projects though!

Me Me Me Now Now Now! No thought for anyone else. And it's not just one vehicle but many. Hopefully, with that many Knuts on the beach, the tide didn't come in...

The final lot of GNR IRCH vans to consider is the 'standard' unfitted type to D13: Diagram 13 (dated 1921): IRCH standard 10 ton van, unfitted The GNR diagram book does not contain a list of running numbers for these vans, which may have been more numerous than the other IRCH van variants on the GNR. However, some numbers are provided: there is a note on the diagram that 794 and 5095 carried advertisements for Denny's Bacon (removed 1948) and the diagram itself has the running number 5317 to illustrate the lettering layout. This suggests that some of the vans (like 794) filled gaps in the series to replace older withdrawn vehicles, whilst other batches were given new numbers in the 5000s. This is also borne out by the photos, and I'll show a few of the 5000s first. This 1940s photo shows 5833 in the foreground and a similar vehicle in the 14## series in the background: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509293840/ 5777 can be seen on the left hand side of this view: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53569639997/ 5571 is on the right hand side of this photo: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511793550/ In contrast, Brian Flannigan's image of 240 is one of the lower-numbered vans. It has been clad in sheet material and is seen here in CIE livery with GN showing through: More photos of such things would be very welcome. I hope to build some models of these vans in due course.

A couple of other views of the pre-ISO containers, including some loaded on conflat wagons which was less common in Ireland. From Ernie, and just behind B159, is a BR 'BD' type container on a conflat wagon: A derailed container train with some conflats and containers at unusual angles: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54251716295/

Diagram 14 (dated 1938): 12 ton van for cement traffic The diagram shows that these were externally very similar to D13 but with an extra layer of planking inside, slightly reducing the cubic capacity but presumably making them more weatherproof and slightly stronger. They had 3-hole disc wheels and were rated at 12t rather than 10t; a handwritten note on the diagram indicates that the springs were uprated although the bearings were standard. 200 of these were built in four batches: Group Y: 50 vans built between February and July 1938, with numbers in the range 139 to 620 (but not a continuous number series) Group Z: 50 vans built between October 1938 and August 1939, with numbers 293, 565 and the remainder in the range 626 to 1218 (but not a continuous number series) Group B: 50 vans built between September 1939 and March 1940, with numbers in the range 1230 to 1496 (but not a continuous number series) Group C. 50 vans built between February and November 1941, with numbers in the range 1498 to 1859 (but not a continuous number series) The odd thing is that I've really struggled to find photos of these 200 vans. With a complete number listing to search for, I haven't found many images that are definitely this type. There are a fair number of photos of GN vans carrying 'Return to Drogheda' branding suggesting they were used for cement, but they're not all the IRCH type and even those which are the right type don't seem to have numbers in the D14 listing, and don't have disc wheels. The van on the left of this image (by Ernie) appears to be 1571 of Group C; it carries the 'Return to Drogheda' branding. Note also the rainstrip on the roof which would be a sensible fitment on a cement van, although it is not shown on the diagram. The van has sheeted sides rather than planks; this may be an overlay or a replacement of the original material, or it might be that wartime material shortages caused Group C to be built with ply sides from the start. On the other hand, the van on the right-hand edge of this view does not appear to be a D14 despite the 'Return to Drogheda' branding: it has spoked wheels and the number 134 is not on the list (nor are any in the 134# range) 139 and 1338 are near-misses that are on the D14 list. The van in the background here appears to have the right characteristics and a number in the 8## series which would be plausible for a D14 Group Z van: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54419686084 Now that I know their numbers, I will keep looking out for these vans as it seems odd that they were camera-shy. Of the last Group C, the diagram has notes against two of them: 1678: Bulk cement with chute 1736: Bulk cement without chute These may have been prototypes for the later steel-framed bulk cement hoppers. I have not yet found any more info on these two.

Note the covered carriage truck (with end doors and high arc roof) immediately behind the loco. Other nice details in shot include the staff exchange about to occur, and the loading ramp on the right behind the station sign.

To complete the vacuum-braked vans, we'll next look at D17: Diagram 17 (dated 1942): Vacuum fitted 10 ton van, to the IRCH standard design, with 3-hole disc wheels 100 of these were built in two batches Group E: 50 vans built between October 1942 and March 1945, with numbers in the range 1861 to 2086 (but not a continuous number series) Group J: 50 vans built between June 1945 and July 1946, with numbers in the range 4064 to 4218 (but not a continuous number series) 25 vans had their vacuum brake equipment removed in December 1953, and transferred to container flat wagons. The vans remained in use in unfitted form, and may well have been reclassified as D13. I suppose they ought to have been repainted grey at the same time. The diagram contains a full listing of numbers in both groups, and which lost their vac brakes, but does not mention which went to UTA or CIE. There are some notes on the diagram which indicate that some vans were fitted with improved springs or spring shoes. One of the posts above includes a good selection of photos of the fitted vans and I won't repeat all of those here: https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/18829-irch-standard-goods-vans-wooden-framed-variant/#findComment-264809 However, I will examine the photos with legible numbers consistent with those listed for D17: D17 Group E This IRRS photo shows 1970 at Clones in 1957. This retained its vacuum brake but the brake cylinder is on the opposite side in this view. The GNR vac-braked vans only had 2 brake shoes. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508917715 This NLI photo shows 2016 at Strabane in 1959, branded UT. It has retained its vacuum brake, which agrees with the listing on the diagram: https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000304583 D17 Group J Roger Joanes's photo on Flickr shows 4102 in UTA service at Newry in 1963. This van retained its vacuum brakes: Here are 3 views of 4166N, in CIE service, retaining its vacuum brakes as per the listing on the diagram: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54257197990 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54257010559 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54255882582 Ernie's view of 4216 in 1956, with vac brakes: 4105 was one of D17 Group J that had its vac brakes removed, and has been repainted grey. However, on the D17 diagram there is no mention of it also being converted to a bulk grain van, so that may have happened later. The diagram book does not contain any diagrams for bulk grain conversions, but may not have been kept fully up-to-date in later years. These photos show the roof hatches for loading. Note also the advertising panel on the side, and the resulting unusual position of the GN lettering (to which has been added a UT stencil): https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511443526 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511610703/

Let's take a look at the scarce types first, starting with D15: Diagram 15 (dated 1936): Vacuum fitted 10 ton van, basically to the IRCH standard design but with drop doors more like a cattle wagon 25 of these were built in 1937 Ten were converted to D16 meat vans in 1941/2, leaving only 15 to the original design. One van (93) was originally fitted with movable partitions for egg traffic, which were later removed. Two vans (199 and 123) were originally fitted with Denny's Bacon adverts, removed 1948 The running numbers of the remaining 15 vans to D15 were: 74, 76, 93, 94, 98, 100, 119, 123, 134, 137, 150, 161, 167, 191, 202. 74, 93, 98, 119, 134, 137, 150, 167 went to the UTA in 1958, the remainder to CIE. 'Irish Railways: 40 Years of Change' (Boocock) page 37 has a lovely photo dated September 1958 showing one of these at the head of a train in pristine GN red-brown livery with full GN lettering and CIE stencil. Note the distinctive drop door: Another appears in the margin of this 1957 photo by Ernie on Flickr: As noted, 10 of the D15 vans were converted to D16 meat vans in the period 3/10/1941 to 19/3/42 (the diagram book gives individual conversion dates) Diagram 16 (dated 1942): Vacuum fitted 10 ton meat van, converted from D15 with the addition of louvres and vents The D16 retained the drop door arrangement of the D15. Louvre vents were fitted along the upper sides and lower sides, with a vent cowl on each end too. There is a handwritten note on the diagram, dated 1949 but not very clear, which might say that they were stencilled 'for fresh meat traffic only'. The running numbers of the D16 vans were: 67, 68, 69, 70, 116, 147, 151, 165, 169, 180. The first five went to UTA and the others to CIE. This IRRS photo dated 1961 shows one of the D16 meat vans, the middle one in a row of three vans in the background to this photo: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54419745218/ The D16 is easily identified as it has louvres in the lower side as well as the upper side. Edit: E.M.Patterson's book 'The Great Northern Railway' (Oakwood Press) page 58 has a photo at Clones dated 1956. It includes one of these D16 meat vans as well as two smaller meat vans. The D15 and D16 vans only existed in small numbers and I haven't yet found any more photos of either type. It's worth noting that the diagram book shows several other van types converted for meat traffic in the early 1940s, but these were older vehicles not to the IRCH standard dimensions and so are beyond the scope of this thread.

That is an unusual shape and construction - possibly built by a road vehicle coachbuilding firm rather than a railway? Thanks for sharing. (The photo link worked for viewing on my phone but not on my PC - no idea why)

Now that I have the GNR wagon diagrams - thanks to Leslie and Richard - I can complete the information on this thread about the IRCH wooden-framed goods vans. Obviously I can't copy and paste all the diagram information as that is the IRRS's IPR, but I can summarise the wagon types and I'll make some further posts to illustrate each diagram. Here I will summarise the position. There are five GNR wagon diagrams which concern us here, when considering wooden-framed vans to the IRCH standard dimensions. These are as follows: Diagram 13 (dated 1921): IRCH standard 10 ton van, unfitted Diagram 14 (dated 1933): 12 ton van for cement traffic - externally very similar to D13 but with an extra layer of planking inside Diagram 15 (dated 1936): Vacuum fitted 10 ton van, basically to the IRCH standard design but with drop doors more like a cattle wagon Diagram 16 (dated 1942): Vacuum fitted 10 ton meat van, converted from D15 with the addition of louvres and vents Diagram 17 (dated 1942): Vacuum fitted 10 ton van, to the IRCH standard design. Some of these had the vacuum brake equipment removed in 1953, to enable more container flats to be vac-fitted. Diagrams 13, 14 and 17 were quite numerous whilst 15 and 16 were scarce. In some groups there were also some vans modified or branded for specific traffics, generally in small quantities. The 1959 GNR wagon diagram book lists all the wagon numbers for these diagrams, except for D13 (which was probably the most numerous). It also lists which vans went to UTA and which to CIE in the 1958 split. I think images of most of the above types appear in previous posts in this thread; I may have to search again for D16. I have not yet found any diagram relating to the bulk grain van illustrated in a previous post (perhaps this was an older vehicle?), but there is a reference to two of D14 being modified for bulk cement, 'with chute' and 'without chute'. This is intriguing. Perhaps they were prototypes for the later GNR bulk cement hoppers?

Many thanks to Leslie and Richard for taking payment and sending the wagon diagram set I was looking for. I have some research work to do now! Mol

"I am the Walrus" With all the Oasis hype at the moment, Walruses were in my mind when I happened to spot a Cambrian kit for one on ebay for a good price, and thought it would make a nice little project. It's a bit outside my core interests, but I can put it in the NIR works train I'm gradually assembling to accompany the Hunslet I have on order. With a bit of spare time today I've made a start, it's not the easiest kit to build but I think I've managed to get the main structure fairly square and tidy. Thanks to inspiration from these threads: https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/10712-nir-ballast-hoppers/ https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/1979-nir-ballast-wagon/ https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/2449-popeyes-workbench/#findComment-38942 And from Jonathan Allen for his photos on Flickr, especially this wonderful colour shot: Of course, on close inspection there are a number of differences on the NIR ones so I'll have to make some modifications to the kit. Indeed there were also considerable differences among NIR's small fleet, with wagons from two batches and each having their own unique modifications such as patches on the bodywork and different buffer types. And I'll need to widen the bogies to suit 21mm gauge. Meanwhile my rake of 7 H vans is almost complete, with final assembly in progress - couplings, wheels etc. I'll hopefully get them finished this weekend and will post some pics.

Really impressive what you did to upgrade the old Brassworks models. I've got one of those 08's stashed somewhere, which I repainted in blue with wasp stripes, but I wasn't aware of the detailing kit at the time. I seem to remember trying to get a load of marker light options working on DCC but getting it wrong and blowing the decoder. Electronics not my strong point!

Nice (partial) view of the lettering on a new corrugated open wagon in that last image, including the snail. Note that this is one of the wagons with 4-shoe handbrakes positioned outboard of the wheels. Also I like the narrow-gauge bogie container flat in the first image!

Thanks Mike! It’s the GNR goods wagon diagram book WD002 I’m looking for. The IRRS list it as available for sale in digital formal on their website: https://irrs.ie/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Digital-Drawings-List-22-UK.pdf But actually getting hold of it seems challenging!

I'd tried Windows 11 and Safari on the phone with no luck. Glad Patrick has it sorted now, some great photos.

Spotted over on RMweb thanks to Big Jim: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/forums/topic/70783-jim’s-“out-and-about-with-gbrf”-thread/?do=findComment&comment=5882926

Thank you for the quick and helpful response.

That's better - I can see this pic. Looks superb!

Thanks JHB! I don't suppose you have the GNR wagon diagrams too? I've been trying to buy a copy of those from the IRRS but there's only an email address for contact and my emails have gone unanswered.

Please could IRM could give us an update on delivery dates for the Park Royals? Also for the unfitted H vans, for which I was invoiced (and paid) last month? I am aware of the project status page but at present it isn't particularly helpful for either of these projects, with the Park Royals showing as In Production, due Q2 2025 (now in the past) and the Bulleid wagons all grouped together and showing as In Stock (which the unfitted H vans are not). https://www.accurascale.com/pages/projects I'm not in a rush for these models, just looking to plan expenditure over the coming months. Many thanks, Paul