Mol_PMB

That's super - many thanks John. I have added a link from my original post on the MGWR vehicles to your more detailed description and listing.

Some excellent models too - and plenty of inspiration of how to make them. The explanation of the resin casting was particularly useful. Super work on that railbus and trailer - wonderful! Many thanks to both Davids.

What a wonderful talk!

Ah, excellent! That's a really useful addition to the pool of information on GNR wagons. Thank you! Interestingly, the cement hopper diagram is not quite consistent with what I was expecting, but the split into 3 parallel discharge chutes certainly helps to clarify the design. A couple of pics below from Ernie and Jonathan Allen; there are more on the IRRS Flickr:

GSWR Horseboxes: Diagram 103, including those built by the GSR GSWR Diagram 103 comprised at least 38 horseboxes built between 1911 and 1924. Numbers were in four ranges but there were gaps within the first two ranges: 142-298, 1023-1041, 1100-1109, 2980-2985. The GSR continued building similar horseboxes from 1925 to 1927, with a further 20 numbered 2986 to 3005. These were very similar but the later ones had some design changes as we will see in the photos. The diagram shows that these were considerably longer than their predecessors: 19’ over headstocks and with a 12’ wheelbase. This provided more space in all three compartments (groom, horse and storage) and more stable running at higher speeds. As you can see from the listing on the diagram, they all survived into the 1950s and almost all escaped the cull around 1960, leaving this design to be the last type in traffic into the early 1970s. This is a very clear view illustrating former GSWR 142 of 1913, in light green livery at the end of its life in 1969: Also in 1969, this IRRS colour view of 295 shows the GSWR diagram 103 in light green livery very well: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511470293 Another useful closeup is this IRRS photo showing 1101 in the earlier dark green livery, with the flying snail transfer: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54778605579 We saw this 1956 shot upthread while commenting on the modified diagram 100, but the other three horseboxes visible here are diagram 103: This shot dated 1950 gives a nice clear view of the end detailing, on the left hand margin of the image: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509066204 In 1960, a rake of three: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54253212614 Limerick Junction was a good place to see horseboxes, with the adjacent racecourse. These two photos each show a rake of three diagram 103 horseboxes in light green, in 1969 and 1967 respectively: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53449386531/ The GSWR diagram 103 horseboxes had steel underframes, but some of the later GSR-built equivalents had wooden underframes. This reflects a broader trend where the GSWR used steel on many of their wagons while the GSR reverted to wood. Here are a couple of partial closeup views of GSR 2991 which show the wooden headstocks and solebars of the last batch (alongside the main subject of the photo which is an MGWR horsebox we've seen before): https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54252116072/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54253256089/ As well as the different underframe material, the GSR horsebox has J-hangers and auxiliary rubber springs in addition to the leaf springs used on the GSWR diagram 103. Both the GSWR and GSR types survives into the early 1970s, it appears that the slightly older GSWR vehicles with steel underframes lasted better than the wooden GSR vehicles. I'll cover liveries more thoroughly in another post, but some of these horseboxes ended their life in grey livery with black underframe. These three IRRS photos from the early 1970s all show the final livery scheme: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570653133 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53527469213 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511614184/

Thanks again! Shots like these are still useful when we come to consider how horseboxes were used - which is on my list to add to this thread in due course.

Thanks! Here's a couple of IRRS photos of this location in the 1950s, from ground level and with lots of horseboxes (road and rail) in shot. They're all rather distant though, so hard to identify: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509287640/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509287680/

Many thanks Leslie, that's very useful to know. GSWR diagram 103 (and the similar GSR-built ones) were the last survivors and would be likely to appeal to people modelling the 1960s, while also of course being suitable for most of the 20th century. There were subtle differences between them as I'll show in a future post.

Ah, excellent, nice to see another image of those camera-shy vehicles. Many thanks. They look a lot like the DW&WR later DSER Ashbury type of 1879 - we saw the last survivor of those 14D on the W&T, upthread:

Thank you! I don't have a diagram of either DSER version, I'm sorry. Thanks for posting the image which is one I hadn't seen before. Immediately behind the loco is a GSWR Diagram 101. Partly visible on the edge of the image is an MGWR horsebox of the second, larger type. I'd be very happy to see other horsebox images posted here. I'll try to finish the story with the GSWR diagram 103 and GSR horseboxes this evening or tomorrow, and then expand on their liveries.

Agreed - I would be interested in those too. GNR 4-wheel grain hopper/vans would also be of great interest to me, as illustrated in this thread: https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/19729-cie-bulk-grain-vans-a-study-of-the-variations/#findComment-274863

Many thanks @jhb171achill When I get on to the diagram 103 horseboxes then I will have some colour photos to illustrate the liveries you describe. But as you say it’s often hard to tell for the 1950s or earlier - in monochrome photos all the dark colours look much the same. I do have a couple of clues to present - but not tonight.

GSWR Horseboxes: Diagrams 100 and 101 Diagram 100 comprised 24 horseboxes built in 1897, and numbered 195-198 and 260-279. These were short vehicles and did not have a storage compartment. The diagram shows some distinctive features including coach-style panelling on the groom’s compartment, and a clerestory-type ventilator on the roof over the horse compartment. Another unusual feature is that the upper part of the side is shown as hinging upwards – on most horseboxes this part of the side was formed of cupboard doors. Two were withdrawn in 1941 but the others survived into the 1950s. As might be expected, the fleet was withdrawn in the mass cull of horseboxes in 1958-1962. Diagram 101 comprised at least 47 horseboxes built between 1895 and 1911. Numbers were in three ranges but there were some gaps within the first range: 146-185, 283-292, 1056-1067. They were very similar in size and appearance to the Diagram 100 vehicles, and also had upward-opening upper side doors. However, they were plainer in appearance with no carriage-style panelling. One was withdrawn in 1941 but the others survived into the 1950s. As might be expected, the fleet was withdrawn in the mass cull of horseboxes in 1958-1962, the last two surviving into 1964. Horseboxes from both of these diagrams were modified over the years, with many losing their clerestory vents. The Diagram 100 vehicles seem to have lost their distinctive panelling too, and the upper side doors were modified to a plainer design similar to Diagram 101. As a consequence, these two diagrams ended up looking extremely similar – hence why I am dealing with them together. In the book 'Great Southern Railways' (Murray) p86 there is a photo which very nicely illustrates no.168 (Diagram 101) in GSR days. Note the recessed areas above and below the groom's window, and the tall thin recessed strip at the near end. These are distinctive features of Diagram 101. This IRRS photo from the 1940s appeared in the MGWR post, but beyond the MGWR horesbox there is a GSWR Diagram 101 vehicle: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507996077 We also saw this 1953 photo from Ernie in the MGWR post, on the right we can see most of a GSWR Diagram 101 vehicle complete with its clerestory vent: This 1957 photo from John Phillips shows a rake of seven horseboxes. Zooming in, the nearest three look a lot like diagram 101, but they do not have the recesses above and below the groom's window, or the tall thin recessed panel at the opposite end. My best guess is that these are rebuilds of GSWR diagram 100. One of which retains its clerestory vent. Beyond them is an MGWR vehicle followed by three GSWR diagram 101 (with recesses): A few more examples from Ernie to come. This 1953 photo shows a Diagram 101: This 1955 photo shows a flush-sided vehicle which I assume to be a rebuilt diagram 100 that retains its clerestory vent: The second horsebox in this rake photographed in 1956 also seems to be a rebuilt diagram 100: However, this photo also at Limerick in 1956 shows a diagram 101: And finally for now, this IRRS photo shows another diagram 101, late in life in 1959 and surrounded by modern rolling stock: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54253429780

A short addendum to the previous post - here is GSWR carriage diagram 102 which illustrates the ex-WLWR horse boxes described above:

Excellent work! That really looks the part for a tatty, well-used and weathered van. Spot on. Although kits take a lot of time, there's a great deal of satisfaction in producing something that good.

Very nice indeed. Those nettles seem to be the same species that grow on my own O gauge layout on the banks of the ship canal. I haven't yet tried downsizing these to 4mm scale.

DSER Horseboxes The DSER contributed 21 horseboxes to the GSR in 1924, but only 5 were still in traffic in the early 1950s and they had all gone by 1961. Those five were: 14D, built by Ashbury in 1879 and later transferred to the W&T section where it lasted until 1955. 1D, 7D, 8D, 9D, built by the DSER in 1909-1913 and withdrawn in 1958-1961. Fortunately, both types are well illustrated in the book ‘Irish Broad Gauge Carriages’ (Coakham); there are images of 8D and 14D on p28. The two types were different in style and appearance. Otherwise the few DSER-built vehicles seem to have been camera-shy. However, 14D on the W&T makes cameo appearances in a few photos such as these from Ernie: WLWR Horseboxes (later GSWR Diagram 102) The WLWR built 8 horseboxes in 1897-1898, which were soon inherited by the GSWR and became their diagram 102. Five of these survived into CIE days, as follows: 1025, withdrawn 1964 1026, withdrawn 1961 1037, withdrawn 1959 1038, withdrawn 1960 1040, withdrawn 1961 This photo from Ernie shows an excellent (though cropped) view of 1025 in the 1950s. This evaded the major cull and was not withdrawn until 1964: We saw this 1953 photo before in the MGWR post, but the other horsebox partly hidden by the loco is a former WLWR vehicle: Finally, this IRRS photo from the 1940s has a horsebox hiding behind the water column. I think it is another of the WLWR boxes: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508874946/

I'll try to illustrate each of the types of horsebox. In this post, I'll start with the MGWR. MGWR Horseboxes The MGWR contributed 59 horseboxes to the GSR in 1924, of which an estimated 39 were still in traffic in the early 1950s. However, they were withdrawn in the 1958-1962 horsebox cull. Photographs indicate that at least two types of MGWR horsebox were still running in the 1950s, but I do not have any documentary data giving individual numbers or quantities of each type. The most distinctive MGWR horseboxes had a rather short body, with a low-height compartment at one end which could be used for dogs. This photo from Ernie illustrates the type well – this is number 19M in 1953: JM Design has produced a very nice etched kit for this type of horsebox: Other good photos of this type of horsebox are available in the IRRS Flickr archive if you are a member. Here is 55M in the late 1940s – unusually with two small flying snail logos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507996077 Two photos of 52M in 1957, near the end of its life: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54253256089/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54252116072/ There is also a good photo of 60M, dated 1953, in the book ‘Irish Broad Gauge Carriages’ (Coakham) p23 The other type of MGWR horsebox had a more conventional shape and I assume it was a newer design. This IRRS photo of 36M in 1960 illustrates the type well. The door to the storage compartment has a droplight window, which is a distinctive feature of this type: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54252116092 Another can be seen behind the loco in this 1955 photo from Ernie, which also shows that these vehicles were quite tall: And there is one on the right-hand margin of this 1953 image: This 1955 photo has a tantalising glimpse of a horsebox. EDIT: I now think this is a DSER horsebox, see the next post. Perhaps someone more specialised in Midland matters can give more details of these? Edit: John Mayne has kindly added more details and the number series for these MGWR horseboxes in another post downthread: https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/19747-cie-horseboxes/#findComment-275259

A forum member asked me for some information on CIE horseboxes, including their liveries and withdrawal dates. It’s not a subject I had researched for my own interests as I had no plans to model a horsebox. However, it seems an interesting topic so I’ve done some research and will present it in this thread. I will start with some statistics to answer the question on withdrawal dates. In subsequent posts I’ll add some images to illustrate the liveries and the different types of horsebox. The CIE annual reports include useful statistics on many topics, and horseboxes are no exception. Tabulated data each year gives the number of horseboxes in the asset data, also the number of ‘horses carried by goods train’ in the traffic data. Starting with the traffic data, the number of horses carried by goods train shows a generally downward trend through the 1950s and 1960s, eventually petering out by 1974. Some horses might also be carried by passenger train, and presumably those don’t appear in these statistics. Not all horses would be carried in horseboxes (some might be in cattle wagons); meanwhile horseboxes might be called on to carry other animals (such as prize cattle). Nevertheless, the general downward trend in the carriage of horses by train is clear to see. The next graph shows the number of rail horseboxes, from 1951 to 1974. In the nationalised CIE’s first report in 1951, they had 175 horseboxes and that number remained fairly stable until 1958 (when there were 165 horseboxes). Over the next few years there was a drastic cull of horseboxes: 60% of them were withdrawn by 1962. After that, there was a gradual decline over the next decade and there were none left in 1973. The 1969 CIE carriage register gives a total of 18 horseboxes which matches the figure in the 1970 annual report. Unfortunately the page listing their numbers is missing. I have not found any evidence that CIE built any rail horseboxes, so the quantities in the graph above must represent older vehicles inherited from the CIE/GSR constituents. I have been able to collate fairly good data on horseboxes for most of the railways, from the following books: GSWR Carriage Diagrams (Pender & Richards) GSR Coaching Stock (Pender, IRRS Journal no.61) The Midland Great Western Railway of Ireland (Shepherd) Dublin & South Eastern Railway (Shepherd & Beesley) Cork Bandon & South Coast Railway (Shepherd) Irish Broad Gauge Carriages (Coakham) The WLWR vehicles would be included in the GSWR listings - I think GSWR diagram 102 is the former WLWR vehicles. I expect there were a handful of narrow-gauge horseboxes (which might be included in the CIE statistics) but they won’t be numerous enough to skew the picture so I have not considered them. I do not have any information on GNR horseboxes, but I suspect they play a small part in this story – CIE would have inherited half of them in 1958 just as they were conducting their drastic cull of horseboxes, so it’s unlikely that many GNR horseboxes remained in traffic with CIE for long. At the formation of the GSR in 1924/5, the 5’3” gauge companies contributed the following quantities of horseboxes: GSWR: 117 MGWR: 59 DSER: 21 CBSCR: 2 The GSWR was part-way through building a batch of horseboxes in 1924, and the GSR finished off this batch (but did not build any more after that). They were numbered 2980 to 3005, of which the first 6 are included in the GSWR total above; the remainder need to be added to the total: GSR: 20 That gives a total of 219 horseboxes in the mid-1920s. From the CIE statistics we know that this had reduced to 175 by 1951. From the other references we know the quantities for some of the railways: GSWR: 111 DSER: 5 CBSCR: 0 Unfortunately I have not details of the individual withdrawal dates of the MGWR or GSR vehicles. If we assume that all 20 of the newest GSR horseboxes were still in use in 1951, then to get the correct total of 175 we would need 39 of the MGWR horseboxes to have survived until 1951. That seems a plausible estimate. The next graph includes a mixture of some well-founded figures and some estimates based on the principle just described. It shows how the total number of horseboxes in traffic with CIE was made up according to their railway of origin. The GSWR carriage diagrams book includes four diagrams of horsebox, and lists all the vehicle numbers individually with build and withdrawal dates. Consequently, the green parts of the plot are fairly certain. The DSER (orange) figures are also quoted individually in the relevant book. The GSWR diagram 103 horseboxes (built 1911-1924) escaped the cull in 1959-1962 but the older GSWR and DSER types were mostly withdrawn in the cull. I am assuming that the diagram 103 vehicles completed by the GSR in 1924-1927 (shown in brown) also survived that cull. We have to estimate the numbers of MGWR horseboxes (blue) based on the totals given in the CIE annual reports. This indicates that the MGWR horseboxes would have followed the same trend as the older GSWR and DSER vehicles – most survived until 1958 and then they all went in the cull. Whilst this may not be perfectly accurate, I think the trend is plausible and it is borne out by photos as we will see later in the thread. To summarise: Until around 1960 there was quite a variety of horseboxes on CIE, including GSWR, MGWR, DSER and WLWR types. Between 1958 and 1962, 60% of the horseboxes were withdrawn and this affected all the older vehicles (a couple lasted a bit longer until 1964). The GSWR/GSR diagram 103 horseboxes built 1911-1927 survived that cull. From 1962 to 1972 the remaining fleet of this one type of horsebox gradually dwindled until the last few were withdrawn in 1973. To illustrate the later survivors, this old print I acquired recently on eBay shows a diagram 103 horsebox number 142, which was built in 1913 and withdrawn in 1969. This photo is dated 1969, and I note that it has a 1965 repair date on the solebar. This one appears to carry light green livery with black ends and underframe, with large XP lettering and the number in much smaller digits below. No snails or roundels to be seen. For those not familiar with horse boxes, it may be useful to point out the main features. At the near end is the groom's compartment, i.e. human accommodation. I think this usually just contained a bench seat, maybe a light. I'm not sure whether grooms officially counted as 'passengers'. In the middle is the horse compartment. Half of the side drops down to form a ramp onto a platform, and there are some sprung arms connected to the solebar which would some of the weight when the flap drops down. The upper parts of the side open like cupboard doors. There are also sliding ventilators in the upper doors. Inside, there would be movable partitions so that up to 3 horses could be carried, usually facing the direction of travel. At the far end is a storage compartment for supplies like hay, water and cleaning/grooming equipment. The vehicle has vacuum brakes and screw couplings, and a long wheelbase so that it can run in fast passenger trains (hence the XP branding = express passenger). Most 20th century horseboxes had a similar layout although the styling differed between railway companies. By the 1930s, some even offered the luxury of a toilet and washroom for the groom, like this LNER example, but I don't think any Irish horsemen were so lucky.

@BosKonay is now going away to recalculate the price. Might have to rise a bit from the EUR 50 each proposed above!

Only lights? What about the full-fat DCC sound version with the generator purring away and the boiler blowing off occasionally? Not to mention the steam effects percolating from the ends of the van.

Assume makes a (donkey) of u and me? I’ll take one for the team and be a donkey if you make the vans .

As far as I am aware, several types of heating van, both 4-wheel and bogie, have been available recently in 4mm scale. In RTR, the models have been of the more basic type such as those by Silver Fox, IFM etc., representing Dutch vans of both types, and I think the 4-wheelers. Good layout coaches but not to the highest level of detail. Replacement sides are available to convert RTR coaches too, for both Mk1 and CIE bogie heating vans. They should be within the capability of many modellers. For a complete kit build, the JM Design 4-wheelers fit the bill. More experienced modellers can complete these to a high standard. So what we’re missing is high-end RTR models to match the quality of the IRM coaches. Fine detail, multicolour paint jobs on an excellent surface finish, probably working lights. We already have basic RTR, and we have good kits and parts as the basis for modifications. There seems little point in crowding those niches. I’d probably buy several high-end RTR heating vans. In their absence, my preferred approach is to work with kits and conversions. So, absolutely yes please if IRM were to produce the 4-wheelers, or the BR or Dutch vans. But given the very long gestation of the Park Royals, and their apparent disinterest in a goods brake van, I won’t be holding my breath.

Does it include the 1950s designs like the cement hoppers and cement vans with corrugated ends? The scans available from the IRRS are from a copy of the wagon diagram book that never got the extra pages. Though it does detail the CIE/UTA split of wagons by hand-written annotations. Just wondering if the Belfast copy had been updated with the later designs.

A rare colour view of a diagram 88 full brake, still with its birdcage lookout, in 1959. The vehicle behind is not a GSWR one - most likely a CBSCR brake. I wonder what shade of green this is, under the grime! I think plain unlined green could be either dark or light green.