Mol_PMB

A couple of photos from Ernie's excellent albums on Flickr - this one shows the GS livery on goods vans quite clearly: This is 1950s but most of the vans are 1930s or earlier - plenty of variety:

This is a Bachmann GWR goods van which bears a pretty good resemblance to some built by the GSWR just prior to being grouped into the GSR. The ends and the brake gear are a bit different, but put some GS transfers on the side it wouldn't look out of place.

I found another Park Royal in the early BnT livery. This is 1396 at Westport in 1963: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54256999668/ The coach visible on the right of this shot dated 1964 could well be 2121, the ex-GSR compo we have seen already in this thread: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53505734117/ I had been thinking there ought to be another odd-numbered AEC railcar to make up the pairs, and here is 2609 in early BnT: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570791079/ Here's another view of a 4-wheel 31xx heating van, again with the number illegible: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53506625116/ I'll leave it there for now, and let you all have some peace and quiet for a couple of weeks. I'm off on my hols...

I've stumbled across another shot of tail traffic behind an AEC railcar, at Claremorris in August 1958: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54253434710 There are two 6-wheelers tagged on the back of the railcar: I think they are a 5-compartment third and a full brake.

I think this was the last update we had with (very mouth-watering) photos, about 10 months ago. The snack car images seem to show a slightly more developed version compared to the October 2024 update, but maybe it's just because they are closeups and we can see more detail. I know there have been some production changes during the gestation of this project including a move from one factory to another - I'm not sure whether this was before or after this last update, so I'm really looking forward to the new update.

And I'd like to build brake second driving trailer 1906 using some of mayner's etched sides, and this was fitted with 8'0" commonwealth bogies.

I hope so too, I have asked, but they were unable to confirm if it would be possible. I've been thinking about this, and many of the vehicles I might want to put the bogies under could also use the underframe and the roof from the Park Royals. So I'm thinking of getting a couple to be stripped as parts donors - ideally a few cheap 'mis-shapes' but I don't know if such things exist. However, a few extra bogies would be extremely useful for many projects. I expect that some of mine will end up being partially repainted too. Edit: Incidentally I was looking back at my orders placed in October/November 2024, and the update email sent by IRM on 7/11/2024. That email had more pictures than the update posted on the website on 25/10/2024. I'm not sure we've had much since then!

I've got 5 on order, and I think I will order another 2. But I would like to see the update to help me choose which. But I'm about to go on hols for a couple of weeks so will have to be patient until I get back.

@Mayner's 3D-printed wagons are excellent and include some suitable for your proposed period, but may no longer be available. If you have a bit of experience of kit-building, then the resin-cast kits for GNR goods vans from @leslie10646 can also be built as GSR or MGWR variants and would fit the bill very well. But again, I'm not sure whether they are still readily available. @Bob49 produces simple 3D-printed kits for GNR 4-plank and 6-plank opens which can also be completed as GSR or MGWR variants: It all depends on how accurate you want to be. At first glance some of the wagons above look very similar to 1930s era British wagons which are widely available RTR and could be repainted into GSR livery quite easily. Lots of goods vans is really what you need, and there was a fair variety. Although this photo of Ernie's is from the 1960s, many of the vans in that train on the right are from the 1930s or earlier:

No, that would be actual deliveries. I wonder which Christmas we'll have them by?

Finally for now, I'd better finish of the carriages. In the CIE photo at the top of the thread, we saw state saloon 351. Here's a closer view of it in early BnT: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507232220 This vehicle was also through-wired for railcar operation, which may explain the proliferation of pipes and cables on the headstock Another older vehicle which gained the early BnT scheme was 845, a suburban 8-compartment third built by the GSWR in 1907 which survived in traffic until 1971. This 1969 photo shows it still carrying the early BnT livery applied in 1961/2: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510410312 One of the longer GSWR suburban 10-compartment thirds also received the early BnT livery, and is seen here in 1964 with a full complement of '2' class designations on every door. These coaches were also built in 1907-8 and those which survived beyond 1961 were 1068 and 1080, so this must be one of those two: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54251291011/ Finally, there some coaches being constructed new in the 1961-2 period, some of which were painted in the early BnT scheme. I haven't been able to confirm the original livery for diner 2402. The standards 1497-1503 weren't completed until late 1962 so they gained the standard BnT scheme. But the composites 2172-2179 were being constructed during the livery transition period, and 2172 entered traffic in the early BnT livery and carried the livery for a few years. I expect that some other carriages of this batch also got the early BnT scheme. 2172 was formed into the 1964 grand railtour set, so there are lots of photos of it! Here's one by Roger Joanes where the number is legible: A colour view from Ernie: This shows the unusual roof layout of these composites which were half-saloon, half-compartment: I've found one other view of a 2172-series composite in early BnT livery, but I can't quite read the number. My impression is that this is 2173: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508784719/ That's all I've got. To summarise, the following vehicles are known to have carried this early style of BnT: Locos: A6, A31 AEC railcars: 2603, 2628, 2630 Powered Intermediate railcars: at least three including 2661 Pre-CIE carriages: 351, 845, 2121, either 1068 or 1080 CIE carriages: 1340, 1403, 1414, 2172 Luggage/brake vans: 18, 2703, 2754 Steam heating vans: at least one 31xx 4-wheel van Total 20 There may have been more; I'd expect that most carriages outshopped from Sepetmber 1961 to early 1962 would have been painted in this style of BnT. Photos at Inchicore show that by May 1962 the painting style had changed to the more familiar deeper orange band with the numbers on an orange background.

A fair number of vans received the early BnT scheme too. I'll show them in this post. Several old 6-wheel vans received BnT but I think only one of them had the early variant with shallow orange band and numbers on black. That was van 18, which appears in these photos by Ernie and IRRS: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54419696369/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54418637727/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53506808386 Of the more modern 4-wheel tin vans, there were at least two luggage vans in early BnT. On the margin of this photo is 2703: This is 2754: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510261742 And there's an unidentifiable one here, it could be one of the two shown above, or another: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54418626292/ Plus of course the CIE official image at the top of this thread shows two of them together. At least one of the 4-wheel heating vans also gained the early BnT scheme, but I haven't yet found a photo where its number is legible. Here are some photo links, mostly on a railtour in early 1962, but one at Inchicore: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54419902815/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570902455 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570902460/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54419513421/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54255284334/

Having looked at the railcars I'll move on to the locos. So far I have only found two locos which carried this early variant of BnT. A6 is the well-known one, and Barry Carse's book 'Irish Metro-Vick Diesels' has two excellent photos of it when freshly painted in September 1961. At first the two ends were treated differently, but by the time of the publicity photo at the top of this thread they were both the same - with red bufferbeams and white eyebrow. Some other photos of A6 when newly in traffic on 8th October 1961 are in the IRRS archive: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54340700855/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54419669904/ Note how the orange band passes below the tablet-catcher mounting plates, and runs horizontal along the side of the loco. On the standard 1962 BnT, the orange band came a few inches higher up the side. On the later 1968 BnT, the loco ends were the same as the original 1961 variant, but the orange was even shallower on the bodyside - the depth transition was on the cab doors. Here's another photo of A6 in this early scheme, in 1963: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54256774321/ The other loco which received this early variant of BnT was A31, seen in these two photos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511772754 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54256774216 As yet I haven't found any other locos in this scheme. The other A, B101 and C class locos which received BnT in 1962-4 all had the deeper orange band. Fewer than half of each class recieved BnT before the plain black livery was introduced in 1964. Later of course the BnT livery was reintroduced on the re-engined locos from around 1968, but that was different again.

Also from Ernie, an example of green Park Royals in a loco-hauled train that is surely going to pass Kildare:

They were everywhere, even in green. These examples are from my AEC railcar trailers thread but they could be seen in loco-hauled trains too. By no means limited to suburban services. Ennis on a Sligo-Limerick service: Westport: GJH_CIE_AEC_Westport_08_Aug_1958 | [Photographer: Graham J H… | Flickr Cork Albert Quay:

The first image I posted in this thread included three 'powered intermediate' railcars in the early BnT livery. There were 9 of these in total, rebuilt from the 6 wedgehead railcars and 3 of the AEC railcars that had been damaged in accidents. The rebuilds were done in 1961/2 and the first 3 at least came out in green livery. At least 3 came out in early BnT, and I'm not sure about the others but they may have entered traffic in the later standard BnT. These two photos show partial views of 'powered intermediate' 2661 in the early BnT livery at Inchicore, with a green K801, in July 1963: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54255477235 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507224990 Just visible on the edge of this photo is one of same type. I think the quoted date of this photo may be dubious, but if it's correct then this pre-dates the repaint of A6. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54419498281/ Also, several of the AEC railcars received this livery, and they seem to have been more photogenic. From Ernie, here's 2603 in 1963. Note that the curve of the orange is only just above the headlight, and the white number on the black portion is visible on the bodyside: 2628 also carried the early BnT livery and operated an IRRS railtour in 1963 in this scheme so there are several photos from different angles: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54418616372 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54419697329 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54419865485 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508677663 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570940705 2630 also recieved the early BnT livery, as shown here. The next two vehicles in the train are both powered intermediates, one in green and the next in standard BnT: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53447301370 Another shot of 2630 dated August 1962 - the remainder of the train is green: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54255514105 It looks as if 2630 was still carrying the early BnT livery in July 1965: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509153573

Back to the early BnT livery, I illustrated Park Royal 1403 already. It was not the only Park Royal to get this scheme, because this photo shows 1414 on an IRRS railtour on 5th May 1962: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570902455 Like 1403, 1414 was one of the 12 Park Royals fitted to work as AEC railcar intermediates. There are a couple of other photos of that railtour which show the same vehicle, although the number isn't legible in these: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570903305/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54419513421/ Notably this train also included a steam heating van also in the early BnT livery, though its number is not legible. Two months later there was another railtour featuring a Park Royal in the early BnT livery. I haven't yet found a photo showing its number. It might have been 1403 or 1414 that we've seen already, or there might have been another one in this livery. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54256982079/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54419490861/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54419491696 Another coach which was repainted in the early BnT was former GSR main line composite 2121 built in 1937, seen at Foxford on 15 June 1963: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54256772811/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54257001818/ (as usual you'll need to be an IRRS member to view these images on their Flickr archive)

Just imagine if it had been that pink instead of the orange! Do I recall correctly that there were blueish allsorts too? The RPSI nearly did that… (my terrible pic - I was young, please forgive me) Anyway, I’ll post some more pics of the very early BnT variant tomorrow. And one day, if the IRM Park Royals ever appear, I may do a partial repaint…

The clearest illustration of this early livery is an IRRS photo of compartment second 1340 dated 10 September 1961: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511615449/ Considering the early date, the newly-painted green carriages adjacent, and the fact that the photo was taken at all, this could represent the first carriage repainted in the new livery. Another very early carriage repaint was Park Royal suburban 1403, seen here in an IRRS photo dated 8 October 1961: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54373564366/ Note how the top of the black band is several inches below the waist rib. On a Park Royal in 'normal' BnT livery, the waist rib was still black, but the orange band reached right up to the bottom of the waist rib. 1403 was one of the coaches through-wired for AEC railcar operation, though it is probably seen in a loco-hauled train in the linked photo. As well as the relatively shallow orange band with the numbers (at both ends of the carriage) on a black background above, note the bold '2' class digits on the doors of both 1340 and 1403. The use of '2' class digits was introduced on the (various shades of) green livery in 1956, and was continued onto the early Cravens coaches in 1964/65, but was then abandoned. Therefore the '2' digits are not specific to the very early BnT livery, but they are indicative of the general period 1956-1964. For example, here is brand new Cravens carriage 1507 in 1964, with the '2' class digits but the deeper orange band and the numbers on an orange background rather than a black background: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54251291186/ By around 1965, the use of the '2' digits was discontinued. '1' digits for first class lasted much longer. More to follow tomorrow...

My recent research into AEC railcar trailers, and adding photo links to the CIE carriage register, has opened my eyes to a livery variation in the early months of the black and tan livery in late 1961 and the first months of 1962. To deal with this little tangent I thought I would start a thread to collate the information and photos I've found so far. Here is a photo which appears in CIE's 1962 annual report (published spring 1962), showing off a complete train in the brand new livery. The scheme had first appeared on A6, in experimental form, in late September 1961. The formation of the train is unusual - after A6 we see a 27xx tin luggage van, two 266x 'powered intermediate' railcars, state coach 351, another 266x, and another 27xx tin van. I suspect that when this photo was taken, CIE didn't have many vehicles painted in the new livery, and had to marshal together whatever was available for the photoshoot. What's not quite so obvious in this photo is that this early variant of the black and tan livery was different from the familiar scheme applied from spring 1962. The key differences were: The tan (orange) band was not so deep, leaving a broader black area below the windows. The vehicle number (in white numerals) was on the black area below the windows. On the normal black and tan livery, this area was tan (orange) and the white number was therefore on the orange portion. The tan band on the locomotive A6 was also not as deep, in fact it was intermediate in depth between the 1962 and 1968 styles. I think I have identified at least 20 vehicles painted in this early variant of the scheme. Some were new-builds and others were repaints of existing vehicles. They include: 2 locomotives 6 railcars 8 coaches 4 vans There may have been more. In this thread I'll post links to images of those that I have found so far. Just three examples to start with, thanks to Ernie. Ancient 6-wheel van number 18: Tin van 2703, just sneaking into the photo margin: And the second vehicle here, then new composite 2172, which I think was painted like this from new: (you can also compare the position of the orange band on the leading 6-wheel van, with that on van 18 in the earlier picture)

Hi Paul, Yes please, that would be very helpful if you could PM it to me. I'm only focusing on those vehicles which remained in traffic with CIE from 1961 onwards, so I can probably extract the relevant data from your spreadsheet for those vehicles. Best Regards, Paul P.S. I'll be away from home for most of the next 3 weeks, so there's no rush, it will be a while before I get any more data incorporated into my spreadsheet.

I'm sorry. I'll just stop posting ebay links then, if I'm going to get ridiculed each time. I thought they might be useful to someone. You're not comparing apples with apples. £195 today is a fair price compared to Euro 190 when new. Shipping and import duties are a separate matter which depends on where you live. For me, and for many other forum members who live in GB, it would cost a lot more to travel to Bray to buy them at whatever Wrenneire's price is.

I must have been very slow, it's taken me 30 years to realise why it was diesel loco numbers 206 to 209 that were allocated to the Enterprise...

A class on eBay for £195 BIN, two liveries available, green and IR: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/157335286665 https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/167804395244 Also various wagons but the wagon prices are steep in comparison.

Many thanks all. Extra thanks to @seagoebox who has sent me copious information on the former GNR carriages which will help me add detail to those entries. It will probably be a few weeks before I issue the next draft, there's plenty more work to do and I have a holiday to enjoy as well.