Mol_PMB

Quoting selectively from BSGSV's post linked above: I'm just looking at a photo in IRRS Journal No. 184 (June 2014) page 66. It is dated 5th September 1954, and shows a '6+2' AEC railcar formation, with the trailers comprising two corridor thirds (1351-55 series), a GSR corridor third (1300 series) and a CIE buffet car (2405-18 series). The buffet is clearly a much lighter colour than the rest of the train. I think this photo pre-dates the accepted introduction of the 'standard' bright green and supports the statement quoted above. However, I'm not sure I entirely agree with all Mr. Kennedy's other statements. Shades of green are a minefield. I tend to agree with JHB and Mr. Kennedy that there was a standard dark green in the 1945-1952 period, and a standard bright green in the 1958-1961 period. But the mid-1950s period seems more complex. So your 1950s train could realistically feature a range of green shades.

Tres bono!

Your version has definitely been fiddled with by AI. Here is a view from a similar angle at a similar date, but not the same photo: One of the things that AI often gets wrong is the track. Look at your photo and there are some odd kinks and gauge variations. Also there is a stray piece of rail (looking almost like a switch blade) in the track second from left. In reality there was a trap point blade near here (see Ernie's photo above) but it faced the opposite direction and of course it had some rodding to work it. AI isn't afraid to make things up and claim it to be true. And then to lie to cover its tracks. It will become an increasing hazard to historians, as the internet fills up with lies and nonsense.

A couple of snippets about the two driving trailers 1906 and 1907, fro 'The Cork, Bandon and South Coast Railway' volume 3 (Creedon). On page 70, 'On March 29th [1957], a C.I.E. control trailer arrived by the City Railway at Albert Quay for re-painting at Rocksavage. These units had been used for some time coupled to a single railcar on the Westport section of the "Cu na Mara" express.' On page 80, 'Around mid-August [1957], another control trailer entered Rocksavage Carriage Works for re-painting.' This photo taken at Cork in July 1957 shows one of the pair around this time: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54253223013/

Most of the railcars carried quite a thick white band, but it does seem to have been quite pronounced on some of the powered intermediates. On the early repaints in black and tan, as well as having a thick white band, the tan band was shallower, and the vehicle number at waist height was on the black portion. Later the tan band was extended upwards a few inches. Here's an early 1960s photo showing 2603 and an unidentified powered intermediate (ex Wedgehead), newly repainted in this scheme: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510559317 There's another powered intermediate in the same scheme on the edge of these two photos of green K801: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54255477235 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507224990 Normal AEC cars 2628 and 2630 also carried this 'shallow tan' scheme; there may have been a few more like this: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54419865485 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54419697329 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54255514105 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53447301370 The last of those shows 2630 with a shallow tan band, followed by a green powered intermediate (ex Wedgehead), and then another powered intermediate (ex Wedgehead) with a deep tan band and a much thinner white band. Some carriages carried the early version of the black and tan scheme too, like corridor standard 1340 here. Some of this batch were wired for working as railcar trailers, though I can't confirm if this one was: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53449371366 I'll finish with one of Ernie's pictures of 2603 to illustrate the early version of the black and tan for those who don't have access to the IRRS archive. Tan about 4" shallower than normal, with the running numbers above it on the black (visible just behind the cab door handrail):

Over on RMweb: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/forums/topic/155786-more-model-ideas/?do=findComment&comment=5903584

Knuckle coupler, no side buffers. Proportions all wrong. AI nonsense.

While we're on annual reports, the 1962 report includes a fairly well-known photo showing the first train in the new black and tan livery: On close inspection, 3 of the 'carriages' behind A6 are actually powered intermediate railcars, newly converted from the Wedgeheads. The other bogie coach is state saloon 351. It seems they scraped together anything in the new livery to pose for the photographer - it's certainly an unusual train formation! The first few powered intermediate conversions were definitely outshopped in green (illustrations linked upthread) but it looks like the last few came out in black and tan.

A couple of extracts from the CIE annual reports which mention these six railcars. This is from the 1957 report: And this is from the 1958 report:

At least 184 is still with us. 1907 was smashed to smithereens in 1974.

Back to 1907, there are several IRRS photos of this with RPSI 184 in 1970, including these: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570456911 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53569599852 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570654018 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511309423 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511309418 What these show is that 1907 had been converted to a driving trailer in the same way as 1906 (cab, headlights, commonwealth bogies etc), but by 1970 it had lost its headlights and therefore was no longer functional as a driving trailer. Other internal control equipment may have been stripped out too, but we can't see that in the photos. That would tally with the entry in the coaching stock register for 1969 which shows only 1906 (not 1907) wired for use with the diesel railcars.

The normal full-size windows have four sections at the top - the top corners are fixed, while the middle two are inset slightly and can slide behind the corner ones. That’s pretty standard. The narrower windows you’re asking about just have two sections at the top. The right-hand one is fixed, and the left-hand one is slightly inset and can slide behind the right-hand one. The narrower windows (but not as narrow as a toilet window) are unusual though - used here to suit the forward-facing rows of first class seats. Normal AEC railcars had the same basic arrangement but a different window style.

Excellent - nice to see some more pics. I've been trawling through the IRRS archive again and haven't yet found any more good photos of the wedgeheads, though there are a few in the distance at the far end of a train. I've found plenty more of them in later life as powered intermediates. Although the photo references a few posts upthread show some in green as PIs, I'm beginning to think that only the first 2 or 3 came out in green and the others were painted in black and tan after conversion. I'll probably add a couple more posts here once I've finished my photo trawl. With Heljan GWR railcars at almost half price at Rails, I did have a look to see if they would be good conversion fodder. They're not. Although the bogie pivot spacing matches, the Irish cars had 10' wheelbase bogies whereas the GWR cars had 7' (early ones) or 8'6" (later ones). The overall lengths are different too, and there's no commonality of body style or dimensions even below the solebar.

The elevated signalbox is the outstanding feature in my view. Will that be swept away too? I suppose it will be in an isolated location once the new station opens.

If it would be easier for you to just photograph each page on your phone, I would be happy to transcribe the data into a spreadsheet / tabular format and post that on the forum for others to use. That would make it easier to search and filter the entries too.

Thanks again! I would be very interested to see the rest of that document. It's a couple of years later than the listing in Pender & Richards but crucially it's more complete as it includes pre-CIE stock, and more detailed regarding the fittings. A decade earlier than the first Doyle&Hirsch book in 1979, by which time there was very little pre-CIE stock left. Would there be any chance of you sharing the other pages on the forum?

Most interesting, thank you! It’s great to have an official source. Does that issue of the register have a date on it? I guess it must be 1960s or early 1970s?

Thanks, that's good to confirm that 1904 and 1905 remained unmodified. There were originally five of them in total. Having had another look through the thread, BSGSV's photo upthread shows that 1908 when withdrawn also had GSR type bogies and did not have a cab, so that remained unconverted. BSGSV says upthread that both 1906 and 1907 were both converted, but there were two phases of their use and the equipment was removed in between: Maybe only one was refitted with control equipment, but both retained the cab modifications? However, 1907 was destroyed in an accident in 1974. There are several photos prior to that, and of the wreckage post-accident, which show that 1907 had commonwealth bogies, cab windows and headlights.

I'm having another look at these driving trailers, and the info above is extremely useful. There are some inconsistencies in published sources about which coaches were converted from the batch of 5 (1904-1908). They weren't all rebuilt as photos show some unmodified ones in use in the 1960s. Pender & Richards say 2 coaches, 1907 and 1908 Colm Flanagan in Diesel dawn says 1 coach, 1906 BSGSV's post above says 2 coaches, 1906 and 1907 I am beginning to wonder whether 3 of these vehicles were converted, but perhaps not all at the same time. I'm going to do a trawl of photos as I've found quite a few more to add to those linked above. Some of the best ones not already in this thread are linked below 1907 was destroyed in an accident in 1974 and this photo shows the cab side window and door arrangement which replaced the ducket on one side. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53527598229 Here's an intact one, earlier in life: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54253223013 Note that the door position has also been moved compared to an unmodified one: These photos compare the other side, not much changed here apart from the bogies and headlight: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54252109222/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/52959572973 I'm pulling together data for a thread on AEC trailer cars and will try to combine all the info on these.

There may be another thread to come on the AEC trailers. But not today - I’m just walking to Old Trafford to watch the last day of the test match.

In the last photo, note the 3 cattle wagons with sheets over them. My understanding is that horses are more skittish than cattle and didn't like watching the scenery go by at speed, so it was normal to sheet over a cattle wagon carrying horses. No doubt @Horsetan will tell us more! On the other hand, they might just be carrying general freight if there was a shortage of vans.

I agree. Considering the main fleet of AEC / Park Royal cars, there’s already a Silver Fox RTR model, although it has had mixed reviews. Worsley Works also make a basic set of etches but the distinctive cab curves are left to the builder to work out. IRM will probably (hopefully) make a top-quality model eventually. So there doesn’t seem much point scratchbuilding one. But the Wedgeheads were short-lived in their original form, only existed in small numbers, and their distinctive looks weren’t pretty. So an RTR or kit model is far less likely to be produced. This would make a scratchbuild more worthwhile. I am mulling over the idea of an etch.

While I was trawling books and websites for the Wedgeheads, I have also made a much longer list of photos of the AEC / Park Royal railcar fleet, again focusing on the green livery period. I may analyse that in a similar way in due course - there are some interesting variations in buffers and headlights as well as liveries. I've found about 50 colour photos of them in various shades of green, as well as a couple of hundred monochrome photos. The book 'Diesel Dawn' (Flanagan) includes a list of the coaches through-wired to work with them, which include: 10 pre-GSR coaches, the oldest from 1902 9 GSR coaches 51 CIE-built coaches 12 Park Royals 6 Cravens So now I have a challenge of finding photos showing each type in a railcar set. I've already found two photos of the clerestory diner which is one of the most distinctive. I am not sure whether the list in the book is thought to be complete For example it only lists 2 driving trailers, but I thought there were three. I may be mistaken.

The powered intermediates seem to have entered traffic in light green livery, just before the black and tan livery was introduced. The rebuilt cars were all second class, and their lined light green livery had a snail each side. Another difference from the unrebuilt cars was that the main part of the toilet window was painted green rather than white - this was also done on many of the AEC / Park Royal cars. It's important to note that there were 9 of them - 6 converted from the Wedgehead cars and 3 from AEC / Park Royal cars which had been accident-damaged. As far as I can tell, the rebuilds of the AEC / Park Royal cars replaced the windows with the same style as the Wedgehead cars, so that they were not so obviously different as one might think. To close out the Wedgehead story, here are some photos of the rebuilds in when new and whilst they retained their green livery: https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000305631 https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000305580 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53447301370/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511772699/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510557012/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511453281/ There's also a colour photo in 'Diesel Dawn' (Flanagan) p101 As with the main AEC railcar fleet, they were converted into push-pull cars and 2664 (as 6316) was one of the last survivors in 1987.

Moving into February 1960, this NLI photo shows a wedgehead car being overhauled in Inchicore. The headlights have been removed from their low position: https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000304878 This undated IRRS photo shows 2662 at Cork Glanmire Road. The headlights are in their higher position about mid-way between the bufferbeam and the cab windows. The car number has been repainted in large figures. However, the car still seems to be in unlined dark green with white toilet window, so I suspect that only the cab front was repainted: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510559287/ This undated IRRS photo at Tivoli (by the same photographer) is probably the same car: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511772644/ It certainly has the same missing panels on the underframe. A photo of 2661 at Listowel appears in 'Rails Through North Kerry' (Beaumont/Carse) p75. It is dated summer 1961 and has its headlights in the higher position, but retains its small numbers and the car still seems to be in unlined dark green with white toilet window. There is a suggestion of patch painting around the old headlight position. So it appears that both 2661 and 2662 received their headlight modifications in early 1960 but retained their original livery. However, 2660 received a full repaint in 1960 to accompany its modified headlights. It was used on West Cork lines in their last few months including the very last train, so it became a bit of a celebrity and appears in several photos in this condition. @Westcorkrailway has gazumped me in the post above, which is perhaps the nicest view of its bright green livery with large running number, waist line and snail. Note also the black roof including the upper part of the front wedge. That photo from Ernie is at Cork Albert Quay on 12th September 1960. There are more photos of 2660 around Cork in this period: From Roger Joanes, 15th September 1960 at Bantry: IRRS photo at Albert Quay on 12th August 1960, also a colour image, which in comparison with Ernie's photo shows how the same shade of green can look quite different! https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511728190/ Here is 2660 in colour again, at Drimoleague in September 1960: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54419890835/ And 2660 did sometimes escape the CBSCR, here probably heading for Cobh at Myrtle Hill: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511620958/ 2660 in this condition also appears in books on the CBSCR: Cork Bandon & South Coast Railway (Shepherd) p136, The Cork, Bandon and South Coast Railway Vol.3 (Creedon) p128, p129, p131. So far, that's all I've found of these cars with their Wedgehead cabs. In 1961 they were rebuilt into powered intermediate cars, losing their cabs. The cars without boilers also had their guard's vans replaced with more seating. This NLI photo dated 15th April 1961 shows three of them at Inchicore being rebuilt. The nearer one is still in unlined dark green livery: https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000305443