Mol_PMB

Sorry, I missed this excellent photo of a tiltainer from Wrenneire in this thread: https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/8148-freight-containers-irish-oo-gauge-40ft-or-20-ft/page/3/ This does confirm that the sheet and the container numbers matched, and that they were in a 1400 series.

http://www.trainlogistic.com/pt/Comboios/Gabinete/fich_loc1400.htm The bogies are virtually identical (both broad gauge though a couple of inches difference in gauge) and they both have the intercooled 8CSVT engine rated at about 1350hp, with EE generator and traction motors. Start looking at the details and there are several common features - for example the fuel tank within the solebar, and the light clusters.

If I were IRM I'd have used this as an excuse for a trip to Portugal to record the engine sounds of the CP 1400s which were contemporaries, and very similar mechanically and electrically, although very different in appearance. They're still in regular service.

Speaking of wheels makes me wonder - would IRM consider offering a set of 21mm gauge wheelsets as an extra for this loco, in the same way that Accurascale offer EM and P4 wheelsets for their GB locos? https://www.accurascale.com/products/class-37-em-18-2mm-gauge-drop-in-wheel-sets?_pos=1&_sid=4e43ab327&_ss=r https://www.accurascale.com/products/class-31-p4-18-83mm-gauge-wheelsets?_pos=3&_sid=692d586f4&_ss=r

A couple of posts back I described the CIE insulated containers. From Steve Parker on Flickr, here's another view of an insulated container; it appears to be number 2073 or perhaps 2078: Next, the Tiltainer. Introduced in 1973, these were CIE's first 8'6" high containers and there were 100 of them. These were open-topped and mostly open-sided, though they had low drop-sides. They also had supports for a sheet to weatherproof the box. This photo from Ernie dated 1974 shows one of them, almost brand new: This photo from Jonathan Allen on Flickr dated 1975 shows three of them in a train of other CIE containers. Note that the sheets were numbered, probably to match the containers. They appear to be in a CIE 14xx series: Again from Jonathan Allen on Flickr, here's a closer view of half of one, dated 1975: https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/49534056868 I think the later CIE containers with full curtain sides were different from these early 'Tiltainers', although they might have been modified.

As yet I haven't found any images of the early CIE refrigerated containers, so I'll have to pass over those for now. Let's look at the Barley hoppers. There were only 12 of these, introduced about 1970 and I understand they were used for malting barley traffic from Tralee to Guinness in Dublin. Here's an excellent photo by Brian Flannigan on Flickr, dated 1971: Although there weren't many of them, they were unusual enough to attract photographers. Here's an image from elsewhere on this forum: Legible numbers on these images include CIE 480, 482, 487, so I would guess that the number series was CIE 480-492. The IRRS has a photo of some in the yard at Heuston in 1970: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509415685 Whilst by the 1980s one had been repurposed as part of a mobile concrete mixing train: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53527285451

Next, the 100 insulated 20x8x8 boxes, here's a photo (dated 1978) from John Mayner of one of these: There is a clearer monochrome photo of the same type in a contemporary IRRS journal article, and the container in that image is numbered CIE IRL 2041. I'd suggest these were probably in the 2000-2100 series. Incidentally that same article said, "there are containers with side doors (CIE has 200 of them) ... While the CIE stocks of high-capacity containers are at present limited to 200 dry cargo, 100 insulated, and a few "reefer" units..." which helps to confirm the quantities of both these insulated boxes and the side-door dry boxes described in the previous post. The insulated boxes crop up in the background of some IRRS images too https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511775805 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511477583 Intriguingly, and thanks to Wrenneire for posting this, there was a bad attempt at producing one as part of an Irish train set in the pre-IRM days. Shape and style completely wrong, but the number CIE IRL 2007 and tare weight are spot on: Finally, I've posted a link to this photo of B+I Line vessel 'Rolf' before, but look just in front of the ship's bridge and you can see the end of a CIE ISO insulated container, complete with orange roundel: I'm scraping the barrel a bit here for decent photos of the CIE insulated boxes - has anyone got any better ones?

So, let's look at some pictures of these boxes. Firstly, the 200 dry cargo 20x8x8 boxes, here's a great photo (dated 1971) from Brian Flannigan of CIE IRL 1016 as delivered: And I've linked this Jonathan Allen photo before showing lots of them at Limerick. One has a legible number of CIE IRL 1144: https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/49630072656 Here's CIE IRL 1003 later in life, from another thread on this forum: Based on the numbers on these boxes, I'd suggest these were numbered in the CIE IRL 1000-1200 series (not an ISO-format number) Based on the appearance and the numbers provided on the transfers, I think this is the container type represented by the Provincial Wagons resin moulding, although that scales to 8'6" high (later CIE side-door containers were 8'6" high).

I'll now move on to the early CIE ISO containers, again comparing data from the CIE annual reports and Jane's. Only CIE's rail division included ISO containers in their assets in this period; it appears that there were none allocated to the road division. So looking again at the data from the annual reports, the first ISO containers were listed in the 1969 report so probably appeared some time in late 1968 / early 1969. The relevant categories in the graph aren't just the 'ISO' category though, as other ISO types are listed under different descriptions; they include: 'ISO': 39 in 1969 report, 200 by 1971 'Large covered insulated': 30 in 1969 report, 130 by 1972, possibly not all ISO type 'Barley': 12 in 1979 report, no more introduced later 'UIC Tiltainer': 50 in 1973 report Additionally the number of 'Lancashire Flats' continued to increase in the late 1960s and these included a wide variety of types some of which were ISO-compatible. Comparing with Jane's data: Jane's 1968 says "CIE owns 598 containers, and have a few regular container trains". Well CIE's 1968 annual report gives a total of 600 containers owned by the rail division and 598 by the road division, none of them ISO standard. Bear in mind that the dates for these reports may be some months apart so we wouldn't expect identical figures. CIE are either reporting the rail fleet or the road fleet, but not both. Jane's 1971 says "CIE owns more than 1500 containers of varying types and sizes, as well as Lancashire flats". CIE's 1971 annual report gives a total of 1148 containers (including Lancashire Flats) owned by the rail division and 640 by the road division, which do indeed total more than 1500. Jane's also gives a fleet summary comprising: Dry, total 563, comprising 20ft ISO and pre-ISO types Insulated, total 188, comprising 20ft ISO and pre-ISO types Refrigerated, total 5, listed as 20ft ISO Open Top, total 478, listed as 20ft ISO The total fleet is given as 1234 which doesn't match either the road or rail fleets in the annual reports, nor the total. It's also difficult to reconcile the numbers in each category with those given in the annual reports. Jane's 1972 data is easier to interpret because the ISO and non-ISO categories are separated: Focusing on the ISO types: The 200 dry cargo 20x8x8 boxes correlate well with the 'ISO' category owned by the rail division. The 100 insulated 20x8x8 containers also fit well with the rail division's 'Large covered insulated' category if we assume that the earlier 30-odd were pre-ISO and the 100 built from 1971 were ISO. The 3 refrigerated 20x8x8 containers aren't listed in the rail division's fleet, but the road division had a handful of refrigerated containers and the number increased by 3 between 1971-1973. The 335 flats 20x8 represent a subset of the 555 'Lancashire Flats' owned by the rail division, probably those which were ISO-compatible. Illustrated but not included in Jane's list are the Barley hopper containers listed in the annual reports from 1970 onwards. The 1973 Jane's gives a very similar fleet list for CIE's ISO containers, with the addition of 100 Tiltainers 20x8x8.5. These correlate with the new category in the CIE 1973 annual report 'UIC Tiltainer' of which 50 were reported. Perhaps only half the batch had been delivered by then. In the next posts I'll look at each of these types.

I decided to go ahead and build the body while mulling over the chassis options. The sides and ends are stuck together with some internal bracing in the corners. The roof's not fixed yet, but it's starting to look the part: To help me set it square, I took off the handbrake pivots. I'm definitely warming to the idea of doing it as a vac-braked version, as it seems like many of the later survivors were vac braked.

That looks super! The equivalent in 4mm scale would be extremely useful too.

Many thanks John, good thoughts. I'll look into those options. When I built Weshty's GNR brake van kit recently that came with a nice set of etched W irons; not sure if they're available separately but I can find out. My other thought is to use a Parkside LNER 10' wb underframe with clasp brakes, and model a vac brake fitted wagon. Thanks for all the ideas! Mol

Many thanks Brendan, that's good to see how you have approached them. I don't think the cattle wagon underframe is quite the same as the example you have shown, the solebar (moulded as part of the bodyside) is quite thin and it might be tricky to get a strong bond there, considering the forces that W irons get when bending them to fit wheelsets. I think it might be possible to reinforce the joint behind, if I cut away a section of the floor behind each W iron as you have done, but it would have to be quite a small reinforcement to avoid fouling the 21mm gauge wheels. So that might work. I'll do some measuring up. Cheers, Mol

Thanks! Enjoy the train ride.

I've got one of Leslie's cattle wagon kits to build, and I need to make it for 21mm gauge. There must be someone on the forum who has done this already, please can you advise me? Having done a couple of his 20' container flats, these were fairly easy to convert to broad gauge by removing 1mm of resin from the inside of the W-irons. But the cattle wagon W-irons are closer together and thinner, so that's not an option. Also it's not easy to cut the chassis unit down the middle and pack out by 2mm, because then it would be too wide to fit between the cosmetic solebars moulded into the sides. I think it would be difficult to remove 1mm from the outer edges of the chassis block without damaging the W iron and bearing detail. I'm sure that a few weeks ago, when I bought the kit, I found an online video showing the build of these kits to 21mm, but I now can't find that anywhere. I'm wondering whether the best solution is to just replace the floor with plasticard and use some etched W-irons. If so, is it possible to buy fold-up etched W-irons for 21mm gauge? Another option might be to use a Parkside or Cambrian 10' wheelbase underframe, packed out 2mm, with the solebar detail removed from the donor underframe so that it fits between the cattle wagon sides. I could probably do that with bits I have in stock here - and might then be tempted to vac-brake it. Any thoughts? Cheers, Mol

Ah, I hadn’t realised there was one there - very interesting. That also helps to explain the layout of the pointwork into the works building in the 1900 map and even into the 1970s. I wonder if the original Limerick turntable was re-used somewhere else? Were there any branch lines being built in the late 1890s that would have needed a small secondhand turntable?

If we’re interpreting the question correctly then the turntable of interest was removed before 1900, and so it’s unlikely there will be many photos of it. So information on turntables of a similar era and size that survived longer may be the best source?

I think we’ll need some more information. There are many possible issues and you need to rule them out to focus on the problem. Do you have a multimeter to check voltages, resistance etc? In theory, is the loco set up for dc or dcc? Is it new or secondhand? cheers, Mol

Are you thinking of the turntable at Limerick loco shed, south of the Foynes branch, or was there another loco turntable in the original works area at one time? Some plans in this thread: For many years, Limerick also had a triangle which could have been used for turning locos. Regarding the turntable at the loco shed, I have seen photos of steam locos on it around 1970, whilst on railtour duties. The whole loco shed area was ripped up and converted to a bus depot in the mid 1970s. Mol

Good thinking. Much better to complete a modestly sized project than to attempt an empire and struggle to finish it. I am terrible at finishing things myself, usually because I’m too ambitious. Also, good to spend time planning and reflecting as you are.

The registration plate is visible, though not legible, on this narrow gauge tank wagon: https://flic.kr/p/2pwq5iZ And on these broad gauge ones: https://flic.kr/p/2pwD6W1 https://flic.kr/p/2pwDLqB

Having mentioned Northern Ireland Trailers a few post back, one of the companies merged into P&O / Pandoro about 50 years ago, I was amazed to stumble upon this yesterday: These 1960s alloy containers were prone to accidental damage and were quickly replaced with more robust steel boxes, but the alloy ones don’t corrode and have ultimately outlasted the early steel containers.

Here’s a Swilly example, lower number here used at a later date. The RCH practice was that each registering railway had its own series. A wagon only had to be registered by one railway to run on any railway. With tank wagons, grain and Guinness wagons, the fair number of PO coal wagons north of the border, I don’t think 200 is impossible. They might not have existed all at once

I would expect them to have had GSR plates. I wonder if the GSR register of PO wagons survives somewhere - they were all given a registration number. On the GNR(I) plate shown above, the registration number is 196 which indicates that there were at least 196 PO wagons registered by the GNR(I) by 1922.

Here's a link to a drawing of the RCH PO wagon registration plate - a very standardised and (in GB) legally required feature on PO wagons: