Mol_PMB

Many thanks. For now I'm using 9'x10"x6" cross-section approximately, and it looks about right. The new thread on the photo plank is here:

I've made a start on an extremely small layout, which I'll describe in this thread. It's 600mm long and 200mm wide, with just a single track. The idea is to test out a few ideas for track construction and scenery, to give me somewhere to photograph model rolling stock, and to help me decide whether to take the plunge into 21mm. I spent an hour in the workshop using a few offcuts to make the basic carcass, which looks like this: The base is 12mm ply, with two strips of 20mm squre softwood on top, and a surface of 9mm sundeala board. There's also a scenery former of sundeala board at the back. All these are glued and screwed together and the sundeala has had a coat of dilute PVA over all the exposed surfaces. At a later stage I intend to add some end profiles and a little backscene board. The plan is to have a very gently curved single track running the length of the board, with lower ground in front and higher ground behind, as if the line is skirting a low hill. The scenery will be rough grassland and gorse bushes. Hopefully that will look good for photos. The slight twist is that the track will be dual gauge 16.5mm and 21mm, so I can see how I feel about each option. My intention is to use code 75 flat bottom rail spiked to a laser-cut wooden sleeper base. We'll see how that works! Here's a photo of the first attempt. I've used 2mm MDF as a base to raise the track above the scenery, and then cut the sleeper base from 2mm ply. There are some good and bad features! I was dumb enough to put the ply in the laser cutter the wrong way round, so the grain goes across the sleepers rather than along them. That's easily fixed and the machine is now cutting me a new panel that's correct. The fine track pins are a snug push-fit into the laser-cut holes in the sleepers, and I'm hoping that this will be sufficient to set everything to gauge. However, driving them through the MDF is hard work. I may abandon the MDF and use cork instead. The pins are quite long so they'll go right through into the sundeala board and hopefully that will hold the rails firmly.

An hour or so in the workshop has produced a little board as the basis for my photo plank and test track: The idea is a gently curved single track, with lower ground in front and higher ground behind, as if the line is skirting a low hill. I might start a new thread for this project, in the appropriate part of the forum, even though it's a rather small project.

Many thanks! Funny you should mention that, as I'm just planning the track and you may be able to help with a couple of dimensions. My plan (for the trial piece of plain 3-rail track) is to use code 75 flat-bottom rail, spiked to sleeper bases laser-cut from ply (I have a small laser-cutter). I think I can also mark the spike holes in the sleeper bases too. I think that combination should reproduce the trackform in your photo quite effectively. How long should the sleepers be - 9' ? How wide were the sleepers (8"?) and what was their spacing? Were they closer at joints? Would rails have been 60' long, or 45'? Cheers, Mol

Thanks for the warm welcome. I've done the easy bit and spent some money! So I now have 3 new toys: A Bachmann/Murphy 190 in Supertrain livery (first batch of models) and a Cravens (also first batch) came from eBay. @Fowler4f was very kind to offer me one of his A class at a good price, and it's my first choice of 007 With a couple of IRM Park Royals on order, I'll be nearly there for rekindling the childhood memories of passenger trains around Limerick and Ennis. Though of course I'll have to make a Dutch van to go with them. Now, what next? 007 needs a bit of work to replace the IR logos with broken wheels (I have also got some Railtec transfers for this), and to try and replicate the distinctive A class weathering patterns. 190 is already 'factory weathered' but it's not very convincing so that needs some attention. I might have been better off buying an unweathered one, but the choices were limited and this one was fairly cheap. I'd quite like to renumber it too, although I haven't yet found any suitable number transfers. I may also look at modifying the front end and coupler pocket arrangements - I think I saw a thread on that somewhere. For those with experience of renumbering IRM and Bachmann/Murphy locos, what's the best approach to use for removing the old number? IPA? T-cut? careful scraping? But before I do that, I'm going to make a little test track / photo backdrop. My thoughts are a board around 24" x 8", with a length of dual-gauge track (16.5mm and 21mm) and some scenery. I haven't made a decision on track gauge yet, but this will allow me to try out some ideas and give me somewhere to check that my new toys work. Cheers, Mol

If you're looking for more inspiration on how to load your wagons, how about bales of horticultural peat, piled high and covered in a yellow plastic sheet? Photos on Flickr from 30937 Transport Photography; what a shame that old kettle is partly blocking the view of the wagons!

In the hunt for green H vans, I've spotted another, though unfortunately it's only partly visible. 'Irish Railways in Colour' vol.1 (Ferris) page 75, lower photo at Limerick dated June 1961. It has green sides and black ends, is pretty clean, and is coupled to a dirty grey H van.

I've had a search through my own photos which are mostly too recent for unfitted wagons. I've only got this one picture of a very sad Palvan - I recall this was in the sidings near Dublin Pearse? I suppose it does at least show what the metal bits were like in the absence of the plywood panels.

I was surprised to find some lurking among NIR's engineers' wagons at Great Victoria Street, in this photo by Jonathan Allen dated 1975: https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/49580818871 But I suppose that they got everywhere! Not wishing to re-open buffergate, but am I right in thinking that a few of the models are fitted with the larger buffers? Maybe the following: 13587 in Beet 1 13654 and 13658 in Beet 3 13384 in Roundel 2 13491 in Roundel 3 2 wagons in PWD 1 (but I can't quite read the numbers) I might be tempted to get another pack with different buffers. I confess that I don't have strong memories of these in use, but even in the 1990s there were still a few lurking in sidings like this one, which has the later type of buffers:

I've had a go at scanning the 'shortie' Mk3 but it's been a bit tricky because the page is about 6 times bigger than my scanner! Attached are four individual scans and an imperfect combination of them. There may be software tools that could merge them more effectively - if anyone here is good at this then please feel free to improve on my effort.

Ernie's photo showing the mail at Westland Row a few posts up is dated 1961. Ernie's photo showing the mail at Killarney a few posts up is dated 1963. (also note the green goods van in the siding in this photo, but it's not an H) This photo from Roger Joanes on Flickr is from 1960: Has anyone seen them in mail or passenger trains in the later 1960s?

Additionally, this photo appeared on another thread on this forum. No number visible on the Palvan on the right margin, but it has the door with external ribbing. I've no idea how few of these there were.

That's rather interesting, I'd agree that a snail on a van type first built in 1964 is a surprise. Could it have been one of the 15 H vans that were fitted with sliding doors? I haven't seen any photos of them, but possibly the suspension and brakes might be a clue to telling them apart from the 'normal' Palvans? I've found one more Palvan photo on public Flickr, here's 26073 from Jeremy Chapter: The beet wagons either side have been upgraded with the larger buffers.

Last post for now on Liveries, and I'll leave the floor open for others. It appears that all the CIE Palvans were painted in pale grey livery (all over) when first built. An orange broken wheel with white lettering was on the left-hand panel of the door, and the number on the right-hand panel of the door. If the number had been in the normal place on the bodyside it would have been hidden when the door was open. However, some Palvans in grey livery also had the number repeated on the side, including 26185 and 26338. In both cases, the number stencil was in a different font from the number on the door, suggesting that they were applied at different times. 26185 (see post above) also had CIE stencilled above the number on the side. In grey livery, it appears that all other lettering was on the solebar. Later, the Palvans were painted brown all over. A white broken wheel was on the left-hand panel of the door, and the number on the right-hand panel of the door. In the brown livery, the tare weight was also painted on the door, below the number. Other lettering was on the solebar. There appear to be 2 sizes of broken wheel used on the brown Palvans, see the photos linked above for examples of each. I haven't yet found any other variants, but they may exist! Cheers, Mol

So, now to the variations! There were at least 3 types of end and 2 types of door on the CIE Palvans. 'Irish Railways Today' page 154 tells us 'When these wagons were under construction there was a shortage of standard end section pressings and they were turned out from Inchicore with no fewer than three end designs.' The lower-numbered vans had corrugated ends in 2 parts, and the doors were plain with a single vertical rib in the middle. This type is shown on 26123 in the CIE official portrait (Doyle&Hirsch etc) and on 26135 in Neil Smith's photo on Flickr here: It can also be seen in the book 'Irish Railways Today' page 144, on 26338, and on this photo by Jonathan Allen, where the number is indeterminate: https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/44798332034 This photo of 26326 by Jonathan Allen is the same, and also very clearly shows that this wagon did not have a vacuum through pipe. Was it never fitted to the earlier Palvans, or had it been removed? https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/52891772725 Amongst the vans with fully corrugated ends, at least one had a different type of door with external ribs, as seen in this photo from Brian Flannigan on Flickr: Somewhere around 26350, the design of the ends changed from corrugated to flat with an X-shaped reinforcement. 26373 is seen here in a Jonathan Allen photo, with the upper half of the end corrugated and lower half with the X: https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/52883141960/in/photostream/ And then later, the X-shape was used on both the upper and lower halves, as seen in this photo of 26430 from Brian Flannigan on Flickr. 'Irish Railways Today' page 144, also shows 26458 of this type, and of course the photo of the 3 vans under construction (in the post above) shows this type. Has anyone else got photos of these with legible numbers, that would help to pin down the number series applicable for each variant of end and door?

Now, one thing I had overlooked in the dimensions thread was the drawing linked in this post, which confirms most of what we had before, but still doesn't answer the height question! Now, let's look at the design. The 500 CIE Palvans were built in 1964-1965, a decade after the BR Palvans. They were effectively the last of the 'traditional' unfitted CIE wagons with 10' wheelbase, 16'11" over headstocks and 12t capacity on the triangulated underframe. In 1964/5, construction of wagons was changing over to a new standard of 12' wheelbase, 20' over headstocks and 20t capacity with vacuum brakes, which would be used on a wide range of wagon types including the cement bubbles, flats, ballast hoppers, tanks and various ore wagons. Given this general change to vacuum-braked wagons it is perhaps surprising that the Palvans were unfitted, with hand brakes only. However, this photo of the wagons under construction does indicate that a vacuum through-pipe was fitted. Photo from Ernie on Flickr. You can see the end of the through pipe below the headstock next to the coupling, and the vertical bars below to the 'dummy' where the end of the vacuum bag would be seated: The hand brakes on each side of the wagon were independent, but acted on both wheels on that side of the wagon. Note the twin V hangers each side to support the brake weighshafts, and the long brake handle. This brake arrangement was different to that used on other wagons with the triangulated underframe (e.g. the corrugated open and the H van, each of which had at least two variants themselves). Another design difference from previous wagons with the triangulated underframe was the use of J hanger suspension with auxiliary rubber springs, a feature of the new generation of vacuum braked wagons. However, they retained plain bearing axleboxes rather than moving to roller bearings. Photos indicate that all the Palvans were fitted with the large diameter self-contained buffers, again providing a contrast with most of the older wagons.

In one of the previous threads, there were some useful CIE Palvan dimensions quoted here: These seem consistent with the chassis length over headstocks of 16'11", and width over headstocks of 7'10". Compared to the BR version, the interior dimensions are 3" shorter and 3" wider, again consistent with the slightly different proportions of the CIE van. The height of the top of the frame is the same on the CIE and BR Palvans. The door width of 8'6" is very similar to the BR Palvan's 8'5". The CIE door opening height of 6'0.5" is rather less than the BR Palvan 6'5.5", but this difference may be accounted for by the CIE Palvan's sliding door runner taking up space at the top of the door (the BR vans had hinged doors). There is still no information on the over-all height. This photo from Brian Flannigan on Flickr shows the height difference between a CIE Palvan and H van. It's quite striking, as some modellers have noted: The difference can also be seen (twice) in this photo by Jonathan Allen on Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/52883141960 I reckon the height difference comprises at least 3" in eaves height difference and at least another 3" from the grater arc of the roof. It could be more.

Inspired by a comment on the Bulleid wagons thread about alternative uses for the triangulated underframe, I thought I'd collate a bit of information on the CIE Palvan here. This is a topic that has been considered before in various threads so firstly I should acknowledge and link them: https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/3048-cie-palvan/ https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/9588-cie-palvan-dimensions/ https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/10509-palvans-in-ireland/ https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/8002-triangular-underframe/ There have also been some very nice models made by various forum members which appear on their own threads. I won't link all of them but feel free to add your own links/photos in this thread. In most cases these models are based on kits for the British Railways Palvan, which has some similarities and some differences from the CIE version. One of the threads above was about dimensions, which didn't seem to reach a definite conclusion. Here is a drawing of the BR Palvan which the kits represent, from the Barrowmore MRG website: http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/BRFreight1Issue.pdf Known dimensions for the CIE Palvan are wheelbase 10'0" and length over headstocks 16'11", quoted in 'Irish Railways Today' (Pender & Richards; 1967). So the wheelbase is the same as the BR version, but the CIE body is 7" shorter. I haven't been able to find any equivalent diagrams/drawings for CIE wagons although I expect they exist somewhere. The nearest I could find was an H van, which does at least have the same basic triangulated chassis as the CIE Palvan: Comparing widths and heights is a bit more difficult without a drawing of the Palvan. However, looking at the H van underframe it's clear that the headstock width is similar to the BR Palvan (7'10" vs 7'9") but the buffer spacing is 6'3" compared to BR's 5'7.5". The H van is 11'5" overall height compared to 11'7.75" on the BR Palvan (quite similar). However, in photos the CIE Palvan seems to be quite a lot taller than the H van. More on this in the subsequent posts when I get onto photos. More to follow in the next post...

This photo from Jonathan Allen on Flickr shows a 1970s train comprised of CIE stock but still with a remarkable range of carriage shapes: 161 at Broomhedge | I mention elsewhere the 400mm lens Jim E… | Flickr Mk1, Cravens, Park Royal, Laminate, and the more conventional wooden-bodied 1950s CIE stock. Admittedly still more uniform than the days when 6-wheelers or clerestory coaches would turn up, but that was before my time!

So, the "ballast" chassis is presumably the 1960s/1970s 12'0" wheelbase 20t vac fitted chassis as also used on the following prototypes (not sure if IRM have made all of these): Plough vans Cement bubbles 4-wheel flats 25436-25982 and 27101-300 Barytes opens 4-wheel zinc ore opens Oil tanks 26570-89, 26628-31, 26723-28 and 26730-40 Magnesite hoppers Dolomite hoppers Pallet cement wagons Which might explain why some people are hoping for 21mm-ready cement bubbles in future? Cheers, Mol

Many thanks, that's really helpful. Is there a list somewhere of which of the IRM stock is '21mm ready' and which is harder work? I've seen some threads on regauging IRM A class and MM 141/181 which don't look too difficult given the right ingredients. Cheers, Mol

No CSET livery on the O gauge 88DS is surely a missed Irish opportunity? Though I only ever saw the prototype in pink/rust livery at Fenit.

I know this is an old thread but it seems the relevant place. As someone just re-starting in Irish modelling in 4mm scale, I'm pondering the gauge question. When I last modelled the Irish broad gauge about 30 years ago, I used EM gauge (18.2mm) as a compromise. At that time I was in my teens and to be honest my skills weren't up to it and I never got it working reliably - but that was a long time ago! My skills have improved and the Irish model market has moved on a lot since the days of Q kits and the early MIR offerings. I'm now revisiting the Irish scene (alongside other railway modelling interests in different scales/countries). I'm in that position where I have the opportunity to choose a track gauge again. In the thread above, lots of people said they would choose 21mm if they were starting again, but they were too invested in 16.5mm to change at a later stage. My initial thought was to stick with 16.5mm, it's the easy option, and it would allow me to run trains on several friends' layouts (I don't have a 16.5mm gauge layout myself, although I do have a 22.2mm gauge layout in an entirely different scale). But, the gauge compromise is a big one. Even 30 years ago in my teens it bothered me enough to go to EM as a half-way house. If I go to 21mm then I also need to build a dedicated Irish layout, which is a big step up in the commitment to Ireland, but not necessarily a bad thing. It might only be a small layout (e.g. Inglenook shunting yard) though. There's also the issue that there seem to be several different 21mm gauge 'standards' with regard to flangeways, BTB etc. At present, I would at least like to ensure that my models are "21mm ready" even if they are initially 16.5mm gauge. Most of this thread was written some years ago, and the market has moved a fair way since then. Can I buy 21mm gauge wheelsets to go in IRM or MM models? What other changes would be required? Do IRM broad gauge B4 bogies fit MM Cravens coaches, and is regauging the IRM bogies as simple as moving the wheels on the axles or is it more involved than that? Do the wagon kits (SSM, Provincial Models etc) enable 21mm gauge? I get the impression that some models are easier to convert than others, and some of the 4-wheel vehicles may be more challenging than the bogie wagons. I should say that I'm firmly in the diesel era, mid 70s to late 80s. Sorry for all the questions, I don't necessarily need detailed answers to all of them but a steer in the right direction would be very helpful. Cheers, Mol

Next time I get the scanner out I'll scan these then - I will have to do them in several parts. I do have the BREL diagram of the International brake, but I don't have anything relating to what CIE planned to do with it. I have fond memories of travelling in the International set to Galway, and even to Ennis (on the spare International carriage that sometimes turned up in a Mk3 rake). Somehow I don't think BREL's target market for the carriages was trundling along a single-track branch line with baby GM haulage! I'd be fascinated to see you build models of these!

Hey Mick, it’s a small world, good to see you on here too. As you can see, Irish isn’t a new interest for me, it’s just one that has been in the background for a couple of decades. I also enjoy working out the history of the prototypes. I hadn’t realised how far the 4mm Irish scene had moved forward in recent years, the IRM stuff is stunning but the wider array of smaller suppliers is also great. One challenge for me is the IRM approach of single batches and ‘buy it now or you’ll never see it again’. Hopefully I will find a secondhand A class eventually, and maybe a few wagon types I missed. I’ll see if I can dig out a few of my old Irish models or photos of them. Mol