Mol_PMB

So, let's look at some pictures of these boxes. Firstly, the 200 dry cargo 20x8x8 boxes, here's a great photo (dated 1971) from Brian Flannigan of CIE IRL 1016 as delivered: And I've linked this Jonathan Allen photo before showing lots of them at Limerick. One has a legible number of CIE IRL 1144: https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/49630072656 Here's CIE IRL 1003 later in life, from another thread on this forum: Based on the numbers on these boxes, I'd suggest these were numbered in the CIE IRL 1000-1200 series (not an ISO-format number) Based on the appearance and the numbers provided on the transfers, I think this is the container type represented by the Provincial Wagons resin moulding, although that scales to 8'6" high (later CIE side-door containers were 8'6" high).

I'll now move on to the early CIE ISO containers, again comparing data from the CIE annual reports and Jane's. Only CIE's rail division included ISO containers in their assets in this period; it appears that there were none allocated to the road division. So looking again at the data from the annual reports, the first ISO containers were listed in the 1969 report so probably appeared some time in late 1968 / early 1969. The relevant categories in the graph aren't just the 'ISO' category though, as other ISO types are listed under different descriptions; they include: 'ISO': 39 in 1969 report, 200 by 1971 'Large covered insulated': 30 in 1969 report, 130 by 1972, possibly not all ISO type 'Barley': 12 in 1979 report, no more introduced later 'UIC Tiltainer': 50 in 1973 report Additionally the number of 'Lancashire Flats' continued to increase in the late 1960s and these included a wide variety of types some of which were ISO-compatible. Comparing with Jane's data: Jane's 1968 says "CIE owns 598 containers, and have a few regular container trains". Well CIE's 1968 annual report gives a total of 600 containers owned by the rail division and 598 by the road division, none of them ISO standard. Bear in mind that the dates for these reports may be some months apart so we wouldn't expect identical figures. CIE are either reporting the rail fleet or the road fleet, but not both. Jane's 1971 says "CIE owns more than 1500 containers of varying types and sizes, as well as Lancashire flats". CIE's 1971 annual report gives a total of 1148 containers (including Lancashire Flats) owned by the rail division and 640 by the road division, which do indeed total more than 1500. Jane's also gives a fleet summary comprising: Dry, total 563, comprising 20ft ISO and pre-ISO types Insulated, total 188, comprising 20ft ISO and pre-ISO types Refrigerated, total 5, listed as 20ft ISO Open Top, total 478, listed as 20ft ISO The total fleet is given as 1234 which doesn't match either the road or rail fleets in the annual reports, nor the total. It's also difficult to reconcile the numbers in each category with those given in the annual reports. Jane's 1972 data is easier to interpret because the ISO and non-ISO categories are separated: Focusing on the ISO types: The 200 dry cargo 20x8x8 boxes correlate well with the 'ISO' category owned by the rail division. The 100 insulated 20x8x8 containers also fit well with the rail division's 'Large covered insulated' category if we assume that the earlier 30-odd were pre-ISO and the 100 built from 1971 were ISO. The 3 refrigerated 20x8x8 containers aren't listed in the rail division's fleet, but the road division had a handful of refrigerated containers and the number increased by 3 between 1971-1973. The 335 flats 20x8 represent a subset of the 555 'Lancashire Flats' owned by the rail division, probably those which were ISO-compatible. Illustrated but not included in Jane's list are the Barley hopper containers listed in the annual reports from 1970 onwards. The 1973 Jane's gives a very similar fleet list for CIE's ISO containers, with the addition of 100 Tiltainers 20x8x8.5. These correlate with the new category in the CIE 1973 annual report 'UIC Tiltainer' of which 50 were reported. Perhaps only half the batch had been delivered by then. In the next posts I'll look at each of these types.

I decided to go ahead and build the body while mulling over the chassis options. The sides and ends are stuck together with some internal bracing in the corners. The roof's not fixed yet, but it's starting to look the part: To help me set it square, I took off the handbrake pivots. I'm definitely warming to the idea of doing it as a vac-braked version, as it seems like many of the later survivors were vac braked.

That looks super! The equivalent in 4mm scale would be extremely useful too.

Many thanks John, good thoughts. I'll look into those options. When I built Weshty's GNR brake van kit recently that came with a nice set of etched W irons; not sure if they're available separately but I can find out. My other thought is to use a Parkside LNER 10' wb underframe with clasp brakes, and model a vac brake fitted wagon. Thanks for all the ideas! Mol

Many thanks Brendan, that's good to see how you have approached them. I don't think the cattle wagon underframe is quite the same as the example you have shown, the solebar (moulded as part of the bodyside) is quite thin and it might be tricky to get a strong bond there, considering the forces that W irons get when bending them to fit wheelsets. I think it might be possible to reinforce the joint behind, if I cut away a section of the floor behind each W iron as you have done, but it would have to be quite a small reinforcement to avoid fouling the 21mm gauge wheels. So that might work. I'll do some measuring up. Cheers, Mol

Thanks! Enjoy the train ride.

I've got one of Leslie's cattle wagon kits to build, and I need to make it for 21mm gauge. There must be someone on the forum who has done this already, please can you advise me? Having done a couple of his 20' container flats, these were fairly easy to convert to broad gauge by removing 1mm of resin from the inside of the W-irons. But the cattle wagon W-irons are closer together and thinner, so that's not an option. Also it's not easy to cut the chassis unit down the middle and pack out by 2mm, because then it would be too wide to fit between the cosmetic solebars moulded into the sides. I think it would be difficult to remove 1mm from the outer edges of the chassis block without damaging the W iron and bearing detail. I'm sure that a few weeks ago, when I bought the kit, I found an online video showing the build of these kits to 21mm, but I now can't find that anywhere. I'm wondering whether the best solution is to just replace the floor with plasticard and use some etched W-irons. If so, is it possible to buy fold-up etched W-irons for 21mm gauge? Another option might be to use a Parkside or Cambrian 10' wheelbase underframe, packed out 2mm, with the solebar detail removed from the donor underframe so that it fits between the cattle wagon sides. I could probably do that with bits I have in stock here - and might then be tempted to vac-brake it. Any thoughts? Cheers, Mol

Ah, I hadn’t realised there was one there - very interesting. That also helps to explain the layout of the pointwork into the works building in the 1900 map and even into the 1970s. I wonder if the original Limerick turntable was re-used somewhere else? Were there any branch lines being built in the late 1890s that would have needed a small secondhand turntable?

If we’re interpreting the question correctly then the turntable of interest was removed before 1900, and so it’s unlikely there will be many photos of it. So information on turntables of a similar era and size that survived longer may be the best source?

I think we’ll need some more information. There are many possible issues and you need to rule them out to focus on the problem. Do you have a multimeter to check voltages, resistance etc? In theory, is the loco set up for dc or dcc? Is it new or secondhand? cheers, Mol

Are you thinking of the turntable at Limerick loco shed, south of the Foynes branch, or was there another loco turntable in the original works area at one time? Some plans in this thread: For many years, Limerick also had a triangle which could have been used for turning locos. Regarding the turntable at the loco shed, I have seen photos of steam locos on it around 1970, whilst on railtour duties. The whole loco shed area was ripped up and converted to a bus depot in the mid 1970s. Mol

Good thinking. Much better to complete a modestly sized project than to attempt an empire and struggle to finish it. I am terrible at finishing things myself, usually because I’m too ambitious. Also, good to spend time planning and reflecting as you are.

The registration plate is visible, though not legible, on this narrow gauge tank wagon: https://flic.kr/p/2pwq5iZ And on these broad gauge ones: https://flic.kr/p/2pwD6W1 https://flic.kr/p/2pwDLqB

Having mentioned Northern Ireland Trailers a few post back, one of the companies merged into P&O / Pandoro about 50 years ago, I was amazed to stumble upon this yesterday: These 1960s alloy containers were prone to accidental damage and were quickly replaced with more robust steel boxes, but the alloy ones don’t corrode and have ultimately outlasted the early steel containers.

Here’s a Swilly example, lower number here used at a later date. The RCH practice was that each registering railway had its own series. A wagon only had to be registered by one railway to run on any railway. With tank wagons, grain and Guinness wagons, the fair number of PO coal wagons north of the border, I don’t think 200 is impossible. They might not have existed all at once

I would expect them to have had GSR plates. I wonder if the GSR register of PO wagons survives somewhere - they were all given a registration number. On the GNR(I) plate shown above, the registration number is 196 which indicates that there were at least 196 PO wagons registered by the GNR(I) by 1922.

Here's a link to a drawing of the RCH PO wagon registration plate - a very standardised and (in GB) legally required feature on PO wagons:

I don’t think any were repainted in this way. The GSR ones were repainted to CIE but the Ranks ones stayed in Ranks livery until the end.

Old thread, I know, but I'm interested because I'm currently working on a model. This is a still from an IRRS video clip dated 1975, showing both a Ranks liveried one and a CIE brown one. My part-finished model is currently in grey but I'm tempted by the brown option! I think this IRRS photo shows the same two wagons: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511551080/ On the question of ownership, this IRRS photo of a Ranks wagon, look closely at the solebar just to the right of the ladder. That plate shaped like a London Underground sign is a Railway Clearing House private owner wagon registration plate. That proves it's not a GSR/CIE wagon but genuinely a private owner. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510435707 The RCH plate is also visible on this image linked from another thread. Incidentally, note the ex-GNR grain hopper van on the left. This is a black and white photo showing two freshly painted in Ranks livery at Inchicore in the 1950s. Your guess is as good as mine on the livery, but the underframe looks darker than the body: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509298965 Finally, on the left hand side of this image are a pair of GSR-liveried ones with a nice overhead view, if a little distant: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509038168 I'm beginning to wonder if I should have bought more than one kit...

Here's a shot of one of these from above, showing the roof detail, in the IRRS Flickr archive: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511443526

Another pre-ISO container example, from Brian Flannigan on Flickr. From 1952 until 1960 the CIE statistics list 6 milk tank containers. In 1961 these seem to have been repurposed to glucose tanks, and I think that's what we're looking at here. (I'm aware there were later, ISO-compatible glucose tank containers as well). The road division also had some demountable tar tanks but this doesn't look black enough to be a tar tank. It's also a very nice illustration of one of the 25201 series flat wagons. These were the first 20' long 4-wheel flats and were built in 1962 to carry the larger pre-ISO containers described in the previous few posts. Although vac fitted, they were only rated for a 12t payload and were quickly superseded by the 25436 series which could carry 20t. Edit: these also appear in the background of this IRRS photo at Crossmolina siding, Ballina: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508956685 On reflection, they may well be privately owned tanks (no CIE logos etc) so I might be making a mistake in trying to correlate them with the CIE listing. A couple of IRRS photos dating from 1966 show another of the 25201 series flats, loaded with what might be an 'open brick' container, a 3-plank wooden dropside. On the other hand, CIE might have considered this under the 'Lancashire Flat' umbrella: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508466241 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508783939

Oh, well spotted! The photo on page 90 of the book shows a rake of three in the foreground, of which the nearest one has no side doors. Looking again at the image used by IRM, one of these is the same. The brown one, just to the left of the GSR grain hopper, is the variety with no doors: I wonder whether the ones originally built as grain vans lacked the doors, while those converted from H vans retained their doors? The other variant was the brakes. As with the other wagons on the triangulated chassis, a small proportion of them had 4-shoe brakes (hand operated, not vac-fitted) which were outboard of the wheels. One of these has the different brakes: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53499079254

I forgot something. Here are my photos of the surviving container at Dromod, showing both ends and the accessible side. This is the 1962 type, non-insulated: And from another thread on here, Wrenneire's photo of one which certainly survived into the late 1980s but perhaps much more recently. This is the best view I've seen of the side of a 1965 side door type: I'd imagine either type would be fairly straightforward to do as a 3D print, though I say this as someone who doesn't really know what's involved. Carrying a range of liveries and good for the 1960s and 1970s periods they might be popular.

Well, I have made a ladder. I suppose I could have ordered an etched one but it wouldn't turn up for a week or more. I think it's an improvement? Just trial-fitted at this stage, I should be able to straighten it a fraction on final fit. It looks like the body still needs a bit more fettling too, but it's nearly there. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508956685 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510435707 I'm still hoping I can pick up a couple of the IRM grain vans to go with it, but we'll see.