Mol_PMB

I'm certainly feeling a bit 'DOWN' today but that bit of blue has brightened my mood. Wonderful!

And in the case of this horsebox, presumably somewhere south of Sligo?

Have you got this one?

I was looking through a few more books over lunch, and can add some more horsebox photo references: 'Irish Railways Past and Present vol 1' (Baker) p36, dated circa 1910, monochrome: 3 horseboxes being shunted: GSWR Diagrams 100, 101, 100. 'Irish Standard Gauge Railways' (Middlemass) p16 and p22, dated July 1938, monochrome: two views of horseboxes being shunted, MGWR with dog box, GSWR Diagram 103, GSWR Diagram 100 visible. 'Irish Railways Past and Present vol 1' (Baker) p55, dated 1959, monochrome: rake of 10 mixed horseboxes stabled at Limerick Junction. 'The Railways of Ireland Past and Present: Dublin' (Baker) p.98, dated August 1970, monochrome: Two GSWR/GSR Diagram 103 horseboxes in grey livery; the nearer one is no.295 with 60 MPH MAX branding. The Railways of the Republic of Ireland 1925-75' (Baker) p85, dated August 1973 (very late date, but is it right, as the rake looks very similar to the one above dated August 1970), monochrome: the main subject is a GSWR Diagram 103 horsebox in grey livery, and the edge of another just visible.

From which we might deduce that the SLNCR wagons sometimes ventured far from home. Interesting... For some reason I had thought they were confined to SLNCR metals.

That's a very good reminder though, because it means that photos of the SLNCR horsebox may also be representative of the WLWR type. A quick glance at Sprinks p69 shows a very similar vehicle to the WLWR types illustrated above, although Shepherd's book on the WLWR indicates that it was an older vehicle than those which survived into CIE days. A very quick search on Flickr didn't find any more photos of it on the SLNCR, but I did spot this, perhaps the remains of its predecessor? https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511876260/

I think you need the oxy-acetylene spanner! Not to cut unless you're desparate - just get the nuts glowing dull red.

You're right - there's a bit of the digit missing and I misinterpreted it when looking on the small screen. Now I've zoomed in I agree it is 60 mph. Although that seems slow by the standards of todays ICRs, it's a good deal faster than 1970s freight trains. The 1972 WTT gives a maximum of 35mph for loose-coupled trains and 50mph for fully vac-fitted liners. So the 60mph stencil is permitting the horsebox to run in passsenger trains but not the fastest expresses which could run at 75mph.

Super, many thanks JHB and Barry! it is interesting to see the 40mph [edit: actually 60mph - see posts below] speed limit stencilled on the sides and ends - quite the opposite of the XP on the green livery! Also very interesting to have a glimpse inside number 3002, one of those built by the GSR. I have also been compiling info on the GSR grain hoppers. Trying to do too many things at once, I’ll get back to that soon. Must say that grain hoppers underframe looks suspiciously black…

On models, I am considering the possibility of modifying an etched brass kit for a GCR horsebox into one of the WLWR vehicles. There are considerable similarities in appearance, and the way the kit is designed lends itself to altering some of the more obvious differences. There's another good photo showing a WLWR horsebox in The Waterford, Limerick & Western Railway (Shepherd) p119: Some info on the kit: https://www.brassmasters.co.uk/gcr_horsebox.htm https://www.steve-banks.org/modelling/131-gcr-horse-boxes Might make for an interesting and probably unique model. One of these survived until 1964, one of the last of the smaller horseboxes in traffic.

That looks superb! Keep at it - it will be worth it.

Horsebox Usage A horsebox was very much a 'first class' form of livestock transport. They would typically be used to transport racehorses, prime breeding stock, hunts, and the personal mounts of the well-off portions of society. More mundane agricultural horses would more likely travel in a cattle wagon, if indeed they travelled by rail at all. Horseboxes might also be used to carry other valuable livestock such as prize bulls. For use with hunts, some horseboxes had dog compartments for the hounds. They could also act as vacuum-fitted goods vans that could run in passenger and mail trains for urgent perishable consignments. In GB they were used for fruit and vegetable traffic where there was a large volume to move to market quickly in a short harvesting season (such as the broccoli crop). I'm not sure if they were used in this way in Ireland. Looking at photos of horseboxes in Ireland in CIE days, they fall into several main categories: Individual horseboxes attached to passenger or mail trains Whole block trains of horseboxes associated with horse races or major fairs Horseboxes stabled, often in short rakes, at locations likely to generate horse traffic (e.g. racecourses) There may also have been special trains for hunts comprising several horseboxes and one or more coaches. I'm not sure if this was common practice in Ireland. So as a modeller, you can certainly model one horsebox and add it to almost any passenger or mail train. Normally the horsebox would be at either the back or the front of the train, to minimise the shunting required. Here's one at the back: From Ernie, here's one at the front: It can even be 'tail traffic' on a railcar set as seen in this photo from Ernie's collection: Horse-racing and horse breeding have been important activities in Ireland for many years, and many of the racecourses and fair/show locations were served by sidings at nearby stations or even on their own branch lines. Some of these were quite extensive. @Wexford70 posted some impressive views of the RDS sidings upthread, and here's another taken from the NLI archive https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000731325. Dated 1954, this gives an idea of the traffic levels associated with a major event: Even as late as 1969, a block train of 15 horseboxes could still be run - see Rails Through North Kerry (Beaumont/Carse) p63 for an example serving the races at Listowel. So if you're a modeller that really likes horseboxes or horses, you can run a whole train of them if you wish. Locations near racecourses tended to have a siding with a few horseboxes in, to be ready for any traffic that might need them. When looking for horsebox photos, Limerick Junction is always a good place to start. We've seen several photos of horseboxes there upthread, and here are some more from the NLI archive. https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000308419 dated 1966: https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000307507 dated 1968: https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000303730 dated 1958 Mullingar was another place that often had a rake of horseboxes, again the NLI archive has some photos of them at the platform where horseboxes and cattle wagons were cleaned out. https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000304250 and https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000304253 both dated 1959: Of course Mullingar attracted old wagons for other reasons, and here's a horsebox awaiting the axe in 1958: https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000303853 This photo of Ernie's shows a train being shunted, comprising 5 horseboxes and a couple of carriages. This is the sort of formation that might be used for a hunt special, but equally it might illustrate a shunt move. Hopefully that will give some ideas as to how pre-1973 modellers could include one or more horseboxes on their layout. All we need now is a few more horsebox models! JM Design has already produced a very nice etched kit for the older type of MGWR horsebox. Leslie has been dropping hints about a future Provincial Wagons horsebox, and it's something Enda might consider as a future project too. There may well be some RTR or kit horseboxes representing GB prototypes that are similar enough to pass for an Irish horsebox if repainted. I haven't looked at this option in great detail yet, but many had a similar arrangement and styling.

What a super model! Not too far off UTA green either. If only the early experiments with third rail electrification in Northern Ireland had borne fruit on the main line!

I found a photo in the NLI archive that confirms my guess in this previous post. https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000306095 Here is the traction engine at Mullingar, in steam and plumbed into the steam heating connection of a bitumen tank, to liquify the contents. What a wonderful cameo! See also: https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000306096

Some more progress on the tin van, which is approaching the stage where I've done most of what's in the instructions and I am adding extras. Some of these vans had chunky self-contained buffers as provided in the kit, but I think I'm going to save them for a bogie coach, and instead fit the spindly buffers that some of the tin vans had. I have some in stock. I'm also planning some interior detailing once I can confirm what the interior looked like.

What was the internal layout of a Bulleid 'Tin Van' - the luggage variant numbered in the 2700 series? Was the guard's office partitioned off from the luggage space? My impression from photos is that the interior was entirely open-plan. Since they acted as a guard's van, I imagine that there must have been at the very least the following, but I don't know how they were arranged: a seat a desk a handbrake Some photos give an impression of a fire extinguisher and a shelf at one end: Has anyone on the forum got a drawing, photo or recollection of how the interior was laid out? I have found this information for the heating variant - both a drawing in the HMRS collection and a very nice model by David Malone illustrated in N.I.L. https://hmrs.org.uk/hmrs-5597-train-heating-van-18ft-w-b-30ft-o-b.html https://newirishlines.org/archive/ Vol 7, No.5, page 166 The luggage van variant could have been similar, but without the boiler compartment and tank.

Excellent post, thank you! I look forward to the next installments once you have worked them out.

And that's the SMALLER one? Wow. Room for all your MTK builds there, and the rest!

I'll finish off the horsebox liveries with a post on the final light grey scheme. The black and tan carriage livery was introduced in autumn 1961 and the green livery for coaching stock was abandoned. As we've seen in the previous post, a fair number of newer horseboxes continued to carry their light green paint job until withdrawal in the late 1960s. The older horseboxes had mostly been withdrawn by 1961 anyway. The black and tan scheme was partly designed to make carriages of very disparate styles look good together in a train, as the black tended to conceal differences in window layout and panelling. Although black and tan was applied to non-passenger coaching stock such as tin vans and post office vehicles, there were very few wagon-styled vehicles finished in this scheme - just a couple of the ex-GNR planked bogie vans. As far as I am aware, no horseboxes received black and tan livery. Instead, the remaining GSWR diagram 103 and similar GSR horse boxes being overhauled and repainted were finished in the light grey livery applied to wagons at this time. Unlike the wagons, they retained black underframes, as seen in these IRRS photos. However, the ends were definitely the same light grey as the sides (unlike the light green livery which had black ends). https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53527469213 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511614184/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570653133 Several of the horseboxes in these photos have had the groom's window boarded up or painted over. None carry any CIE logo and the lettering may just be the running numbers, though even those are not obvious in these photos. I imagine that these horseboxes were repainted in the 1962-1964 period, after the green livery and snail had been discontinued but before the roundel logo had been introduced. At this time, locos and carriages were being outshopped without any logos, and some wagons also had no logos. Where a logo was applied (usually on containers and road vehicles) it was a simple C.I.E. in block letters, but this was rarely used on rail vehicles. Post-1964 the horsebox fleet was into a terminal decline and it's hard to imagine many overhauls and repaints being completed. Two photos from this period appear in books showing long rakes of horseboxes in use: Irish Steam in the 1960s (Natzio) p108 shows a rake of about 15 vehicles in 1962, in colour but reflections off the wagon sides make it hard to tell whether they are green or grey. Rails Through North Kerry (Beaumont/Carse) p63 shows another rake of about 15 vehicles in 1969, in monochrome but they are probably in light grey livery. I haven't yet found a clear photo of a horsebox in grey carrying any logo, or even the XP lettering. It's possible that this combination did exist. As ever, when you start doing research there are a few oddballs that crop up. This super photo by Ernie is dated September 1960 when the light green livery was in vogue. C217 had been repainted earlier that year and still looks reasonably fresh. Immediately behind the loco is a diagram 103 horsebox, looking very tatty. At first glance it looks grey on both sides and ends, but I wouldn't have expected the grey livery to be introduced until early 1962, and even if it was a bit earlier the vehicle wouldn't have got so tatty by 1960. If it was light green, its paint job would only be a few years old so should still look fairly fresh, It should also have black ends which are not evident. This doesn't seem a plausible option. My best guess is that this was actually painted dark green a decade earlier, and the paint job has faded and peeled so badly that it looks tatty grey all over. Look on the left-hand side of the same photo and we see a sleeping car which may also be extremely faded dark green, looking grey. Again, I think the date is too early for this to have been painted grey. I'm open to other explanations! I'm nearly there with my horsebox diatribe now. I do plan a post on the way that horseboxes were used, but it requires a bit more research. Thanks to all who have contributed to the story and please feel free to add more photos/info/questions. I'll finish with links to a couple of IRRS photos of horseboxes that I've considered 'out of scope'... narrow gauge 1T: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511708260/ north of the border UTA 199: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54253017991 If anyone has more knowledge of, or interest in, the narrow gauge and/or northern horse box types, feel free to add to this thread. I started this with no intention of modelling a horsebox. I might be tempted now, if a kit were to appear!

Most interesting-I do like a dockside railway scene! A couple of my own photos from my visit to Cork last year - one on each side of the river: I must plan another trip before all this disappears.

This photo has been posted on Flickr by the KDH archive and it's a nice high-quality image that you can zoom right in on: Kenmare in County Kerry on the 15th of April 1955 and in view is MGWR 6 wheel coach 38M. This is quite an interesting image when considering liveries on the old coaches. At first glance the livery is entirely plain, with only a barely-legible running number visible. There are no obvious snails or class designations. I would have said this was early 1950s 'plain green'. But if you zoom in closely on the area around the running number, you can see traces of lining (both the broad eau-de-nil and the fine gold lines either side) which can compared to the similar vehicle on the left margin of Ernie's photo below. So 38M in the first photo shows traces of the original CIE dark green scheme with elaborate lining, but is it: (a) badly faded and weathered to a state where the lining is barely visible, and the snail and class designations disappeared entirely? (b) overpainted in plain green, which is starting to wear off and reveal traces of the lining underneath? Having added Ernie's photo for comparison (also 1955), this then begs the question of the livery of the GSWR coach that forms the main subject of Ernie's image. Look at the 3's and the other 3's underneath, which have a very GSR look to their shape. If only colour film had been affordable in the 1950s!

Some of my time this week has been spent building a tin van from one of @Mayner's kits. It's not yet complete but is starting to look the part and makes an interesting contrast to the old 6-wheel coach: Another ebay purchase arrived this week - an old CIE document from Christmas 1959. This is what I would describe as a 'weekly operating notice' although it does not carry that title and it covers a 2-week period. 56 pages in total, it contains lots of detail about special trains, Christmas timetable alterations, even items of goods lost and found. The arrangements for livestock fairs are particularly interesting though I haven't quite decoded them all yet. Here's 2 of the 6 pages devoted to livestock traffic arrangements, both rail and road: Would a scan of this document be of interest to others? With 56 pages it would take a while to do - let me know.

Light Green Livery CIE introduced their light green carriage livery in the mid-1950s and this was also applied to horseboxes until around 1961. This still from an IRRS film shows a fairly clean horsebox in light green. The only markings are a large 'XP' (indicating that it was suitable for inclusion in express passenger trains) and the vehicle number: We've seen this image before, and although it is in monochrome it is useful to show the markings clearly. Both the XP and the vehicle number are on the panel adjacent to the groom's door. There are no other markings on the body but there is an overhaul date on the solebar. Underframe and ends are clearly black, as in the video still above too. This IRRS colour photo clearly shows a diagram 103 horsebox in light green livery (black underframe and roof; we can't see the ends), but in this case there is no XP branding. The only marking on the vehicle body is the vehicle number, but we can again see an overhaul date on the solebar as well as an on/off indication for the handbrake: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511470293 This IRRS colour photo shows three diagram 103 horseboxes in light green livery. The nearer one seems to have XP branding but the others may not: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53449386531/ This photo from Ernie also shows three diagram 103 horseboxes in light green livery. All three have XP branding on the panel by the groom's door, but the positioning varies slightly: This IRRS monochrome photo shows three diagram 103 horseboxes in 1960 almost certainly in light green livery; the nearer one definitely carries XP but positioned on the groom's door rather than on the adjacent panel. The other two do not obviously have XP branding: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54253212614 The light green livery was introduced a couple of years before the cull of older horseboxes. It was common to see the newer diagram 103 horseboxes in light green, but the livery was also applied to a few of the older vehicles before they were withdrawn. This IRRS photo at Inchicore shows a newly-repainted GSWR diagram 100 horsebox, number 268, in light green livery in 1957. I found this photo after writing the post on Diagam 100, but it's a nice illustration of the type in its later condition. The only marking is the running number; these shorter vehicles may not have been eligible for the XP branding: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54252991786 This IRRS photo shows a clean and glossy GSWR diagram 101 horsebox in what appears to be light green livery in 1959: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54253429780 This IRRS photo of MGWR horsebox 36M in 1960 may also be in light green livery - there is certainly no snail - but it is hard to tell. It appears to have been patch-painted and may even be a combination of green shades: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54252116092

Liveries JHB has already summarised the liveries in this post upthread, but I'll try to expand that with a few photos here. https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/19747-cie-horseboxes/#findComment-275216 Horseboxes were considered as passenger stock (or at least non-passenger coaching stock) and were usually painted in a version of the passenger livery. I'll focus on the CIE period but I'll start with this rather nice view of the GSR scheme where the main body colour would have been maroon, The G S letters are spaced apart with the running number in between, all positioned along the middle of the side. CIE would have inherited the horseboxes in this scheme, before being repainted in CIE livery. From 1945 until the early 1950s, the CIE passenger livery was dark green. On passenger coaches this was decorated primarily in eau-de-nil, including lining at waist and cantrail, class digits and one or more flying snails. Some of these features were edged in gold lining. The horseboxes were not painted in such an elaborate way - the sides seem to have been plain dark green embellished only with a flying snail and a running number both in eau-de-nil. In very early CIE days it was the practice to apply 2 small snails to wagons, (see this thread: https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/19561-early-cie-wagon-livery-2-snails/ ) and at least one horsebox seems to have received this treatment as shown in this IRRS image: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507996077 The majority had one medium-sized snail near the middle of the side, as seen in this photo from Ernie. The running number was usually on a panel next to the groom's door (so the right-hand end on one side and the left-hand end on the other side) Of the horsebox photos I have studied, all the flying snails appear to be coaching-stock style transfers rather than wagon-style stencils. This closeup image is definitely a transfer, complete with the fine line around the edge: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54778605579 The exact position of the snail varied to suit the design of the horsebox and the whim of the paintshop: In the early 1950s the carriage livery was simplified and some new and old carriages were outshopped in dark green without snails (also with simplified lining, or no lining at all, and third class digits omitted). The effect of this change on horseboxes would have been to omit the snail. There are some photos which appear to show dark green horseboxes without snails (including some in the photo above). However, there are very few colour photos from this period to illustrate this livery, and it is often difficult to distinguish shades of green, grey and black in a monochrome photo. We can be fairly confident that the sides were dark green while the underframe and roof would have been black. However, the colour of the ends is less certain - black would be expected but some may have been dark green. This colour photo from Ernie dated 1956 appears to show two horseboxes in rather tatty dark green livery. There's a definite green tinge to them, and they're so filthy that I don't think they can be in the recently-introduced light green scheme, so I think they must be dark green. Zooming in, the one on the left is the GSR variant of D103 on the left and a GSWR D100 on the right. I can't make out a snail on either of them. The strong sunlight/shadows and weathering on the ends makes it hard to judge colour but I'd say the right-hand one could have black ends but the left-hand one is impossible to judge. More colour photos needed! I'll cover the later liveries in another post.

That's super - many thanks John. I have added a link from my original post on the MGWR vehicles to your more detailed description and listing.