Mol_PMB

Lots of maintenance chores for the new year then! But I suppose it's good that some are an opportunity for a change or an improvement.

Ah, thanks - they look good. I've already ordered a pack of the Ratio extruded seating but what you've got may be better. Or perhaps it would be good to use different shapes of seat for each class?

I have started some experiments this afternoon, using five paints in stock. I have also ordered the Revell shade recommended by Mick and will add that to the comparison when it arrives. In each case I started with white mount board, sprayed it with a very light grey primer, and then added one fairly heavy green topcoat. These are shown with layout lighting only, but I've shown them against a white and a black background to see if it makes much difference. Photos with my iPhone. Here's that RAL colour again: The paints are as follows, all colours I had in stock in one form or another: 1 Tamiya spray TS-35 Park Green 2 Railmatch spray 1632 SR Malachite Green 3 Humbrol acrylic spray 80 Grass Green (this was rather an old can) 4 Railmatch jar 620 LNER Doncaster green (This was a very old jar, and I didn't really thin it enough for the airbrush) 5 Precision tinlet P50 LNER Loco Green - Doncaster (also a bit old, but I did a better job of thinning and mixing it) To my eyes (which are an imperfect judge): #1 is too bright and garish, also a bit blue. #2 is what I used on the H van, it's a bit bluish and a bit dark, but perhaps OK for a faded/weathered vehicle after a few years in traffic: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/51233007716 #3 is comparatively yellowish, but may be OK for a freshly painted vehicle on a sunny day: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570664788 #4 is a bit too brown and too dark #5 looks pretty good to me, if a little dark when compared on the white background. Quite a good representation of this: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/52632577324 It's interesting how the black background makes all of them look much lighter than they did on the white background. I look forward to adding the Revell paints to the comparison. I've actually ordered two variants - 364 Satin Leaf Green and 360 Satin Green.

At the start of my 2-week holiday I had great ambitions for modelling progress, hoping to regauge 2 locos, build 2 wagons and 2 coach kits, and a long list of items on the layout. Well, it hasn't quite turned out like that, partly because everything has taken longer than expected, and partly because I've spent more time with friends over the holiday period, rather than home alone. That is definitely a positive, even if it means a bit less progress on the trainset. Progress will now slow further as I return to work tomorrow. Anyway, I'm now in a position of having got 1 loco, 1 wagon and 1 carriage each about 80% done, and a few of the layout jobs done. 156, the bitumen tank and the 6-wheel coach are all within sight of completion. This morning I worked on the tank wagon's ladders (from the kit) and then in an excess of enthusiasm I decided to replace the Bachmann catwalk with a more accurate one made from offcuts of wire and sprue. That's now done, but there are still a few more details to complete on the tank and its underframe before it can visit the paint shop. This afternoon it has been warm enough to paint, so the coach body is now primed and the roof is black. I've also done the first few panels of my 'colour chart of greens' to help me choose the right paint for my 6-wheel coach. More on this next week.

Good spots, DJD! Here are a few more that may be of interest: H vans, 2 out of a 3-pack, price is currently reasonable for that: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/267528643924 Gypsum hoppers 3-pack, these don't come up often: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/227153146643 Light green A42: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/227153161604 Not forgetting from @Georgeconna of this parish, a weedspray train: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/236556205426

Nice to see someone else building a 6-wheeler this week! Looks like an interesting prototype and excellent progress.

Many thanks! RAL 140 50 60 looks like the lighter green which is just what I'm after. Although the linked thread implies it represents the dark green, but this must be a typo as it also suggests that RAL 140 50 60 matches RAL 150 30 30. I think the reference to RAL 150 30 30 must be the dark green. If it wasn't -5 outside and not much warmer in the garage, I'd be out spraying some samples...

Agreed. There's huge variation in the appearance of greens in photos, and it can't all be explained away by lighting conditons or film sensitivity, or an individual's colour perception, because there are many photos of trains where the shade of green varies between vehicles, even if nominally in the same livery. So there are other factors at play, including paint application (and undercoats), fading, weathering etc. Equally I don't necessarily want to paint all my green vehicles in exactly the same shade. But I'm keen to have a starting point to work from. I keep coming back to these IRRS photos all taken on the same day. In the first pic, A25's paint job is only a year or two old, but it's a very different shade of green to the freshly-painted carriage behind it. I tried converting the image to monochrome and the loco is actually a slightly lighter shade than the carriage. In colour it's a much bluer tint https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53569610307 Then look at two other pics of A25 on the same day, and it looks quite different in each one. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570791109 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511295386 At present I only have two green vehicles - an IRM A class and an H van that I painted in Railmatch SR Malachite, and then weathered. Here they are under layout lighting: In my eyes the colour on A42 is a bit too intense, it needs to be toned down a bit. Weathering may achieve that. The H van is a bit too blue and a bit too dark, though not too bad for a work-worn finish. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570664788 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54419669899 When you look at a train like this it seems fairly clean: But looking closely it becomes apparent that there's actually a lot of weathering that will affect the colour's appearance: And then it's interesting to compare the apparent shade of green on these two: with a very similar photo in much the same place, showing two other 6-wheelers in the same livery: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510409677 I think the light green looked lighter and yellower when first applied, and then faded to a bluer shade over time. The addition of some weathering dulled it and could darken it. I'm pretty sure these carriages were all painted the same colour to start with, but the first coach has been painted more recently: Anyway, I am going to do some experiments by painting up some offcuts of foam board in a variety of different greens so I can compare them.

Thanks to Ernie, a nice colour view of another Park Royal in the early BnT scheme, in 1962. I think it might be coach 1398 but the number is very hard to make out:

Super - thank you! 018 is just how I remember the A class. The train at Westport has a wonderful mixture of liveries - 3 carriages in 'silver', 2 in green and 2 in BnT. At Galway, the Park Royal on the right has the earliest version of BnT livery with a shallower tan band and the number on the black portion. My impression is that it's 1398 but I can't be sure.

Perfect, many thanks JHB for the info. That's what I'll paint then. The olive green leaf design will be fun to represent! Do you recall how the smoking compartments were typically arranged? It looks like most carriages originally had one smoking compartment marked with etched window glass, but later more compartments were designated for smoking using labels advertising "Wills's Gold Leaf". For example this former MGWR first seems to have gone from 1 smoking to 3 smoking: And this MGWR lav compo has one end smoking: Were Ladies compartments still in existence in CIE days? Or is this etching in the window long-obselete: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508531276

A quick blast with the laser and I have some partitions, with picture frames for the first class: The tabs at top and bottom fit into the slots in the brass, and once clipped into place they are a firm fit:

The body is now all soldered together and I seem to have achieved something that is square, neat, and fits the chassis and the roof. Success! It's having an ultrasonic bath now, and will get primed tomorrow. I haven't yet thought much about the interior - I'll need to make some partitions and find some suitable seating. As for interior colours, I'm unsure. The instructions say dark brown varnished wood, but my experience of coaches of this era (places like the Ffestiniog and the Isle of Man) is that they were usually scumbled in a light yellow-brown, or painted cream. The lighting was gloomy enough so a pale interior colour was preferred. For seating, the instructions say blue cloth or red leather for first class, brown 'York Terry' (whatever that is) for second class, and no colour information given for thirds. These were built as first/second composites so there should be some upholstery throughout. Of course there are also some doorways between the first class and the toilets to consider. There aren't many colour photos of 6-wheelers in service, and even fewer where the interior is visible. This MGWR all-first from Ernie shows a brownish-green upholstery; above the seat backs there's a hint of some framed photos or maps? This GSWR first might have the same upholstery as the one illustrated above. Are the light rectangles we see actually mirrors reflecting daylight from the opposite side windows? https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511622569 These MGWR seconds seem to have red leather in the smoking compartments, a darker cloth in the others, and a generally cream-coloured interior (painted cream or maybe a pale scumble): This MGWR third is pretty convincingly cream for the interior window pillars, but we can't see much else of the interior: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510409677 Looking at photos of the surviving MGWR coaches, they seem to have the remains of cream interior paint too. As do Eoin's models. Bit of a theme developing here...

I keep looking at the bits for a B101 and then put them back in the box...

Thanks for the advice. I've just done a dry-run and also studied Eoin's build again (he soldered before painting too). The instructions seem to recommend keeping the parts separate until painted, but I've decided to follow your advice and Eoin's method and solder first. Just about to start that...

Today the coach roof has been completed and etch primed, while the ends have been detailed using odds and sods of wire, split pins etc. I need to try and work out the assembly sequence of sides and ends, including whether to solder them together before painting. The instructions are confusing on this matter.

Many thanks Mick, that Revell colour looks good. I'll get some of that and try it. The diesels look great - I bet a lot of work went into the B101 especially!

Good questions, the answers are a little complicated. In summary the GSR type grain hoppers were in two groups: Some built for the GSR, which were railway-owned and went through the grey liveries with logos from GSR to snail to roundel. At least one received CIE brown with roundel in the early 1970s. Numbered from 16401 upwards in the GSWR/GSR/CIE number series. Some were built for Ranks, which were privately-owned. They always carried Ranks branding, right through to withdrawal. Until around 1960*, they were painted red, after that they were grey. Numbered from 1 upwards. The lettering layout was similar on both red and grey liveries. * if you read through the threads linked above you will see different dates quoted. I haven't researched this in detail myself. This rather poor video capture dated from 1975 (just before they were withdrawn) shows a railway-owned one in CIE brown livery with roundel next to a Ranks one in grey: They have been described in some detail on other forum threads so I haven't tried to duplicate that. These links will help: https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/8658-jm-design-rtr-gsrranks-bulk-grain-and-irish-standard-open-wagons/ https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/11225-some-gswr-locomotives-rolling-stock/#comment-172976 https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/1628-ranks-grain-wagon/#comment-25132 I am considering a new thread on the GNR grain hoppers which are often overlooked.

Let's look at a few other photos showing these wagons in their later years - mostly the 1970s. This IRRS photo dated 1969 is not from a very useful angle, but with the vertical rib below the doors it is probably from the first batch. The brakes are of the simpler 2-shoe type which may be a modification. There is a ladder on the visible side: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508956685 Dredging the barrel, this IRR photo shows a pair of bulk grain vans in 1971. Note the roundel used in conjunction with the full ‘BULK GRAIN WAGON’ lettering. Again, there is a ladder on the visible side: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510426822 Here's another view at Ballisodare in 1971. The nearest wagon is a normal H van, but there are two grain wagons in the distance. These definitely have at least one ladder each, possibly two ladders. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511668529 This well-known photo of a Ranks grain van has a CIE one adjacent on the right. Note that the end vent has been removed and plated over. I have not seen this modification on other grain wagon photos. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510435707/ After withdrawal, this view from Paul Taylor on Flickr is dated 1975; very arty but not the clearest view of the wagons. As far as I can make out: All the wagons have a ladder on the visible side. They all have the later type of discontinuous catwalk on the roof. All are in roundel liveries - grey slightly outnumbering brown. Note the second from left has unusually large and wide-spaced ‘BULK GRAIN’ lettering. Finally, an IRRS view of grain wagons dumped off the rails after withdrawal: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511272943 As far as I can make out: All the wagons have a ladder on the visible side. They all have the later type of discontinuous catwalk on the roof. All are in roundel liveries - grey slightly outnumbering brown. They all have the later simple 2-shoe brake. None have the vertical rib below the door for the early-type discharge handle. The brown van left-of-centre has no doors and the aperture plated over (look back a couple of posts for more info on this variant) IRRS Journal no.185 (October 2014) includes two excellent colour photos by David Boyle showing mixed freight trains with grain traffic behind the loco. Page 165 and the back cover. The back cover image dated 1969 is the most interesting, and the view is from slightly above the train so it shows the roof detail of the wagons. The train behind A58R comprises: Charles Roberts built Tar Bitumen tank CIE grain van (appears to be second batch, 2 ladders, continuous roof walk, grey snail livery) CIE grain van (appears to be second batch, 2 ladders, continuous roof walk, grey snail livery) GSR grain van (non-ladder side facing, grey snail livery) GSR grain van (ladder side facing, grey snail livery) CIE grain van (possibly third batch, non-continuous roof walk, ladder on near corner but the far corner isn't clear, grey roundel livery?) GNR grain van in CIE grey roundel livery, ladder side facing CIE grain van (appears to be first batch, 1 ladder on far corner but not on the near corner, continuous roof walk, freshly repainted, grey roundel livery?) GSR grain van (ladder side facing, grey roundel livery) 3 cattle wagons, the middle one newly repainted in brown livery A long string of oil tanks extending out of shot... The photo does not appear to be on the IRRS Flickr archive. The GNR grain van in CIE livery is most interesting and begging to be modelled! That's all I've got so far - if you have any more info / photos / videos etc then please feel free to add them to this thread. The IRM models seem to be excellent, accurate representations of the later-built wagons in their 1970s condition. As with the cement bubbles, if you want to accurately represent one of the earlier-built wagons, earlier in life, then there are opportunities for modifications. These include: Brakes Chute discharge mechanism Ladders Roof catwalks Plated side doors I like all my wagons to be a bit different so I'll probably implement some of these changes in due course.

Now, remember that some photos show ladders, and some do not. Did some wagons have a ladder on one side only, did they mostly have two ladders, or were there some with no ladders at all? Their GSR and GNR predecessors had a ladder on one side, which would seem the minimum sensible provision - two ladders being more convenient but not strictly necessary. Now, let's climb up a ladder and take a closer look at the roof, thanks to the NLI O'Dea collection: https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000307165 The photo is undated but likely from the early 1960s based on the liveries in the train behind: Based on the roof details, there’s no doubt this is a bulk grain van, but it's quite clear that there are no ladders at all! The roofwalks are the earlier continuous type formed of longitudinal planks rather than the three separate grids on the IRM model. [I think there is a GSR or Ranks grain hopper beyond it, that is only just visible, and the third roof hatch we can see is on that wagon] Where was the photographer standing when he took that photo? Well, on top of another grain wagon, and here's another view as that same passenger train passes: https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000307164 I can't see any ladders here either. Note that the ladders wrapped round onto the top of the roof so they ought to be visible on both corners of the far wagon if they were fitted. Maybe the wagon he's standing on was the only one with ladders? Perhaps that's why he chose it? Here's a mixed rake from Ernie on Flickr, dated 1959. Between the Ranks grain wagons are three CIE grain wagins which must be from the first batch. They're rather distant but I think two of the three CIE vans have ladders this side (also two of the three Ranks wagons): We can look at a few other photos from the early 1960s. Firstly a couple of IRRS images dated 1961 so these must show the first batch of grain wagons: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53499079254 Both these vans have a vertical rib below the middle of the doors associated with the hopper opening mechanism. Only the distant one has a ladder on the visible side. The distant wagon has the 4-shoe brake arrangement (outboard of the wheels) while the nearer one has conventional 2-shoe brakes. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54419498616 This shows two grain vans both with ladders on the visible side. In conjunction with this one taken on the same occasion, I think the nearer van must have ladders on both sides: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54418637462 This photo from Ernie, dated 1964, shows a grain van in the earlier snail livery with the ‘BULK GRAIN WAGON’ lettering. The wagon number is out of shot, but I think this is from the second batch as it lacks the vertical rib below the doors for the chute operating handle. It also has the simple 2-shoe brakes. There is definitely a ladder on this side. This IRRS photo dated 1964 shows one and a half grain vans, both with the ‘BULK GRAIN WAGON’ lettering and what appears to be a snail. They do not have the rib below the doors, and have the simpler brakes, probably from the second batch. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54251543484 This undated shot reproduced on IRM is a bit fuzzy in the distance clearly shows the left-hand grain wagon with ladders both sides – alongside another apparently without any ladders. Only an end view like this allows us to count the ladders. I'm not sure if this scan from a book of the same image is any better: So, it seems that as-built, some of these wagons didn't have any ladders at all. Sounds unlikely, but that's what the photos indicate. Others definitely did have at least one ladder, but in the early years it's hard to find photos that prove they had ladders on both sides. Later on, it seems that ladders were fitted to both sides of most of the CIE grain wagons, based on the proportion of wagons that have ladders visible in photos.

Now, about the absence of doors. A photo of Polloxfen's mill in the book 'Rails to the West' shows another grain wagon with the doors absent and the aperture plated over flush with the sides: This gives quite a different appearance to the wagon - the plating is flush with the sides whereas the doors are proud of the sides. Also, there is a central rib in the middle of the plated area. On this photo you can see the remains of the door hinges either side of the former doorway. This wagon also has the vertical rib below the doors associated with the door operating mechanism. It has simple 2-shoe brakes which may be a modification. We can't see much of the roof but there is obviously a ladder on the near corner. The number is partly visible on this wagon at Polloxfen's mill - it ends in 901. Considering the available options of grain wagon numbers, it can only be 23901. In the previous post, the wagon with the doors removed and plated was number 23902. 23901 and 23902 were the first two grain wagons built, so the doorless variant probably represents the original/prototype design. There may have been a few more like this before Inchicore realised it was a lot less work to leave the doors in place and seal them up.

I wrote this post yesterday evening and it seems to have vanished. Maybe it didn't submit properly or lost its way during the migration. Never mind, I'll try again. It will probably come out completely differently on the second writing. Let's start with the excellent IRRS photo used by IRM for their grain van promotional material: This photo is dated 1973 and is also available on the IRRS Flickr site here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570445956 We can see 6 grain wagons here, from left to right: This seems to be from the first batch in original condition. It has continuous roof catwalks, and the vertical rib below the middle of the doors, as in the NLI photo in my previous post. It has the earlier 'BULK GRAIN WAGON' lettering. This has the roof catwalks in 3 separate sections, as on the IRM models. It is in grey roundel livery branded 'BULK GRAIN'. The IRRS caption tells us this is wagon 23902, and that's consistent with what can be seen in the image. This has the roof catwalks in 3 separate sections, and it does not have the vertical rib below the middle of the doors. Also, it doesn't have any doors. I'll look at this variant in more detail in the next post. It is in brown roundel livery branded 'BULK GRAIN'. This is a former GSR wagon, number 16408, out of scope for this thread. The IRRS caption tells us this is wagon 23993, which would place it in the second batch. It has the simple 2-shoe brakes, and lacks the vertical rib below the middle of the doors. It has the roof catwalks in 3 separate sections. It has the earlier 'BULK GRAIN WAGON' lettering. This has the roof catwalks in 3 separate sections, as on the IRM models. It has the simple 2-shoe brakes, and lacks the vertical rib below the middle of the doors. It is in brown roundel livery branded 'BULK GRAIN' All 6 wagons have a ladder on the visible side. Another IRRS photo taken on the same occasion appears to show three more grain wagons at the left-hand end of this train, beyond what is visible in the image above: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53569594857 I won't attempt to fully analyse these because the image isn't very clear - the wagons are rather distant and partly concealed by a platform. One of them does not have a visible ladder; that one also has continuous roof walks and the earlier 'BULK GRAIN WAGON' lettering.

Ah, that's super, thank you. In the opening sequence, Charles Roberts wagons from both of their batches, and some nice views from different angles. There's a couple more glimpses of them later in the film including one at Mallow. The sheeted open wagons are also a useful reference for the colours and numbering of the sheets. There's also some great inspiration for weathering green C class locos - come on IRM, when are we going to get some of those? I found one more in Ernie's albums too - here is an early, small tar bitumen tank, beyond the loco under the bridge. Incidentally the Caltex tank in the foreground (not a bitumen tank) is also an anchor-mount tank - note also the GB-style axleboxes and brake gear - this could be repainted from the Bachmann model.

All seems to be working perfectly now, many thanks. I think one of my posts yesterday evening has vanished (may have fallen victim to the migration or could be some other issue entirely), but never mind, I'll write it again. Thanks again for the migration.

This NLI photo is dated 1958 and therefore these vans are definitely from the first batch: https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000303852 Four vans are visible, all with roofwalks that have continuous planks the full length of the van (not the same as the IRM model). Two vans have ladders on the near corner. The other two do not. When the first batch of vans were built, did some vans have ladders and others not? Or did they have just one ladder, and whether we see it depends on the orientation of the van in the photo? This is a question I have not been able to answer definitively. I do think more ladders were added later. All the vans have a vertical rib below the middle of the doors, which can be seen quite clearly here including a diagonal brace. There appears to be a handle and a horizontal rod to the chute hatch so I think this is associated with opening the chute door. It's very likely that this arrangement was repeated on both sides, since we can see it on all 4 vans here. (note for comparison: GSR bulk grain vans had a ladder on one side, and the chute door release on the opposite side). All these vans have a 4-shoe brake arrangement, with the brake blocks outboard of the wheels. This arrangement was used on Bulleid triangulated underframes under many types of wagon (corrugated open, H van, flat etc) but was superseded by the 2-shoe arrangement. Of these four vans, all retain their side doors but they are now sealed up. All the vans have the classic H-van sides with a grid of bolt heads. I believe these were used to secure internal shelving on the H vans, but would be redundant on a grain hopper. In my mind this is circumstantial evidence that the grain hoppers were all converted from H vans, rather than built new. This photo probably represents the as-built state of most of the first batch. Some or all may have been modified later.