Mol_PMB

The second half of this film shows some excellent actvity on the Youghal branch in the 1970s.

Fenit was a favourite of mine that I part-built a model of 30-odd years ago. It had a variety of freight traffic, retained an interesting track layout with turntable, and quite a mix of motive power turned up there. Also there were enough enthusiasts' specials and locally-advertised excursions (both steam and diesel-hauled) to provide some passenger interest, and it wouldn't require too much imagination to consider that the regular passenger service had continued. In many ways, the same could be said of Youghal, which had a great deal of excursion traffic as well as the branch freights.

I'm happy that I was able to purchase a couple of those that you had in stock. I do tend to agree with the general trend you mention though - the quality of RTR is now too good for kits to flourish even in quite niche markets. Even a decade ago, it was fairly straightforward to build a kit into a more accurate and better-detailed model than the RTR equivalent. Not any more. I'm looking forward to building your kits as I enjoy the construction process, making something my own. Also I'm not expecting the particular prototypes I've bought to emerge in RTR in the near future, but who knows what IRM will conjure up next? Mol

This film shows a variety of these old dropside wagons in use whilst lifting the line through Dungarvan in 1970. Both 4-wheelers (some in red livery) and at least one of the 6-wheelers (freshly painted in grey with roundel) feature in the footage, as well as a nice selection of stealth black diesels and other equipment. Beats watching the same old Christmas movies...

109 was a former Maybach and hence non-standard in some ways. But having seen how they have represented the subtle differences between the Hunslets, maybe the Maybachs will be included in the collection of C class?

OK, here's the big one - the A class livery matrix. I'm not sure how legible this will be as a png so I have also attached it as a pdf. The basic format is the same as for the C class one (and others) posted above, and the livery key is as follows: For the A class, I've had more than just photos to work from because there was an IRRS article about the A class liveries, which @jhb171achill quoted from much earlier in this thread. Liveries based on that information (mostly 1960s period) are shown in italic letters. In many cases they are corroborated by photos which leads me to think that the article is reliable. That data has helped to fill a lot of gaps. Most of the data in matrix makes sense, but as an example of the challenges of creating something like this, look at A43's liveries in the mid-1960s. I'm pretty certain that in reality it was green through the early 1960s and then repainted black which it carried in the late 1960s. The problem is that there's a photo of it freshly-painted in black dated May 1965, and another photo of it in tatty green dated 17 March 1966 (i.e. 10 months later). I'm pretty sure that one of those dates is wrong, but which? https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508785154/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/50671073171/ In general the liveries followed the expected patterns that I've already described for the C Class. However, there are Some interesting cases to note: Some locos were repainted in silver in the early 1960s. Definitely A16, but A28, A39, A40 and A44 may also be candidates. A44 and A54 both spent several years out of traffic following major accidents (shown in blue). Some locos missed out on green. Definitely A6, A16, A39, A40. Quite likely some of the others that carried BDT in the early 1960s. A27 was tarted up and painted green for a Papal visit in 1961, and then very shortly afterwards was repainted in BDT. It looks odd in the matrix but it's correct. Some locos missed BDT and went straight from green to black. Definitely A30, quite likely A4, A9, A13, A18, A19, A32, A42, A43, A59 and probably some others. A16 went straight from silver to black and skipped both green and BDT. Some locos skipped black, and carried BDT until they were re-engined. A1, A22, A37 are examples. A21, A30, A49 and A55 carried the less common variant of black livery with large numbers on the sides and no roundel. Of these, the first three never got a yellow panel, while A55 did get a yellow panel as part of a full repaint with roundel and small numbers on the sides. The first eight locos re-engined were outshopped in BDT2: A35R, A39R, A41R, A42R, A48R, A51R, A58R, A60R. The others came out in BST For a short while in the mid-1960s, A28 carried a non-standard scheme which may have been works undercoat. The ST supertrain livery was by far the longest-lived on the class, and was applied to all of them. Most of those which survived into the 1990s got IR 'tippexed' but 047 seems to have been withdrawn in 1993 still in STIR (supertrain with IR logos). A_Class.pdf

C class liveries summarised and illustrated here: https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/1334-cie-locomotive-livery-variations-1960-1990/page/4/#findComment-252106 https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/1334-cie-locomotive-livery-variations-1960-1990/page/4/#findComment-251972

Excellent!

Hopefully one day IRM will produce the sad face loco too?

Beautiful model of Blackwater too!

Shapeways is being resurrected in the Netherlands. However, Shapeways itself is a marketplace and it’s up to the owners of the CAD whether they make their files available on the ‘new’ shapeways, or somewhere else, or not at all. So there may still be some options but probably best to contact the CAD owners.

Patience is a virtue!

Good question. I'd say the answer isn't so clear-cut,; if it was there it was very fine. https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/52002056438/in/album-72157713210080108 https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/39823131492/in/album-72157713210080108 https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/39828520732/in/album-72157713210080108 https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/39823130872/in/album-72157713210080108

Fascinating - many thanks for sharing. As you say, the stronger coaches played a major part in minimising the casualties, thank God. That lesson had been learnt at Buttevant but it took a while before enough new vehicles were purchased to displace the old wooden-framed coaches. look away now if you are squeamish... It's interesting to see the front end of the locos. In my experience a loco that crashes into a herd of cows ends up predominantly green (from stomach contents).

Don't make the same mistake as I did, which was to look through a load of prototype photos to choose the best livery, and then find that was the only one not represented in model form. Doh! Best to choose from the available models instead. Here's 101 in my favourite scheme, the only loco to carry this variant; this is a link to Jonathan Allen's photo on Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/25987476158/

To be honest I'd probably buy an IRM 101 class whichever variety they produced (Hunslet, Sulzer, or GS&WR).

I agree absolutely. These pictures are definitely inspiring me to get on with building my NIR works train to go behind the maroon 101 I've ordered. Though I'm fully expecting IRM to drop a maroon/blue Mk2 bomb on us soon...

Many thanks John, it sounds like I need to get a copy of that journal. I have quite a few of the IRRS journals from the 1970s and 1980s but nothing quite that old. Do you know if there is an index so I can work out which edition I need? On the topic of the early containers, I have very much enjoyed a read through this thread: https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/8148-freight-containers-irish-oo-gauge-40ft-or-20-ft/ I have an interest in early ISO containers and have extensively researched the early fleet of Manchester Liners as part of another modelling project. I helped Arran with information on this aluminium type, which is now available: https://shop.c-rail-intermodal.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=299&search=manchester For some years Manchester Liners served Dublin, sometimes with direct calls of the trans-atlantic vessels and sometimes with connecting services and operating partners. Being 8' high they will legitimately fit on the earlier types of CIE 20' container wagon, as shown in this photo fromJohn McKegney on Flickr with 25436 and 27101 series wagons: I have also definitely seen a photo of a later 8'6" high Manchester Liners ribbed steel container on a liner train in Ireland. I just can't find the image at present, but here's the C-Rail model: https://shop.c-rail-intermodal.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=272&search=manchester I also have several editions of 'Jane's Freight Containers' from the 1960s and 1970s which give details of all the early container operators including CIE, Bell, B+I, Irish Ferryways etc. At some stage I'll do some scanning of the relevant bits. Mol

I'd love to see more photos of these wagon types, or more details of what they were rebuilt into, if anyone can help? Intriguingly I found this photo posted by mayner on another thread which appears to show one of the last 25436 series wagons, apparently built without a floor. Also a nice view of the fertiliser pallet body: In the meantime I'll be finishing off a couple of other wagon kits and then starting on these.

With only 200 built, these were scarcer than the previous series but still more numerous than the cement bubbles - just less obvious! Going back to my holiday snaps, here's a late survivor in the foreground at Limerick Junction; not the best photo but the ISO spigots, lack of floor and plate axleguards confirm that it is a 27101 series: Also at Limerick Junction, this one has been somewhat modified: Here's the other side of the black one, trying to hide: I suspect many of these were modified into other wagon types, but again I don't know the exact details. Looking at the chassis details, these tank wagons could be candidates: 613A: 26750: 629A (also 633A, 622A very similar):

Next up, the 27101 series of 20' container flats, which were an incremental development of the 2546 series. Too new to appear in Pender&Richards (1967), the 1975 WTT lists them as: 27101-27300 Flat, 20 tonne capacity, 7 tonnes tare It seems that omitting the floor and its supports, the chain pockets and pivoted spigots had reduced the tare weight by about a tonne compared to the 25436 series. The 1978 WTT lists them in the same way, but by 1985 they had been lumped in with the later (and quite different) 27301 series. This continued in the 1986 and 1990 WTTs. Doyle&Hirsch 1978 and 1981 have a photo of an unidentified wagon of this series carrying a Guinness cage (old type) and list them as follows: 27101-27300 Flat wagon 4-wheel, introduced 1970, 12 ton capacity, wheelbase 12', weight 7 tons, hand and vacuum brakes. All of these wagons had roller bearings from the start, and they had triangular plate axleguards rather than the W-shape of the 25436 series. Without a floor or supporting angle iron, and with the chain pockets and pivoted spigots omitted, the solebars had a much 'cleaner' appearance. This excellent photo from Brian Flannigan on Flickr shows 27109 in 1971 when it was still fairly new: Also from Brian and dated 1971, here's 27190. Note that both of these are classified 'LA', and that these photos show the braked and unbraked sides. The brake arrangement appears to be the same as on the 25436 series: As can be seen from these photos, these wagons were built new in red/brown livery rather than the grey of their predecessors. Note also that the bufferbeams are the same 8' width as the container load, and protrude a good few inches beyond the solebars. In the IRRS Flickr archive, this is a great photo of 27192 at Mullingar in 1986 which shows the brake gear very clearly. Note that there are three Vee hangers. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509438595 This is another good low-angle shot from Jonathan Allen on Flickr dated 1975: https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/40292795622

Bearing in mind that there were over 500 of the 25436 series flats built, what happened to the rest? Well my understanding is that most were 'kitbashed' into other wagon types such as beet wagons, pallet cement wagons etc. I don't have any official data though - can anyone else fill in this part of the story? As far as I can tell the 25436 series all had 'W' iron axleguards rather than the plain triangular plate type, which may be a useful spotting feature for later re-use. For example, this tank wagon 26647 could be on a 25436 series chassis:

The 25436 series flats also seem to have found brief use carrying pallets and palletised goods in open-top containers, as shown by these mid-1970s photos by Jonathan Allen and the IRRS archive on Flickr. I think this is fertiliser, and presumably this traffic was transferred to the dedicated palletised fertiliser wagons when they were introduced: https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/40234864872 https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/40234864722 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53527323416 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511479228 We've already seen that the mechanical engineers adopted a few for moving wheelsets and bogies around; here's another variant on that theme by Jonathan Allen at Inchicore in the late 1980s: https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/52043022146 But the S&T people took a lot more wagons for their cable-ploughing train which was involved in many resignalling projects. Here are some early 1980s photos by Jonathan Allen and the IRRS archive on Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/50880724581 https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/49565356217 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53527641434/

Here are some of my own photos from the early 2000s. Firstly, here is 25533 and if I recall correctly it was in the sidings at Grand Canal Dock for several years in the late 1990s and early 2000s. The 98th wagon of the batch, it still has plan bearings but has either lost (or never had) the chain pockets and pivoted spigots. An interesting feature of these wagons was that there were two brake shoes, both on the same side (cement bubbles had 4 brake shoes, or even 8 on the first batch as built). Here we are looking at the side with the brakes; the vee hanger is slightly offset to the left of centre and the vacuum cylinder is on this side. Referring back to the three photos in the previous post, they all show the unbraked side, with the vee hanger offset to the right, no vacuum cylinder and no brake shoes. Also of note is the chequerplate floor with its angle-iron edges; in this case the number and overhaul data is painted on the angle-iron. Subsequent container flats didn't have floors at all, as they were only designed to carry loads on the ISO spigots on each corner. Lurking in the background of this photo at Limerick in the early 2000s are a couple more, unidentifiable I'm afraid. The one on the left still has its chain pockets and pivoted spigots, while the one on the right does not. The one on the left sows the arrangement of levers on the brake cross-shaft better than some images - see the cruel zoom below. Note that the handbrake is applied. Now to some lightly modified wagons, still basically flats but with some extra features. Firstly here are two views of 25557 modified as a wheelset carrier and seen at Limerick works. This shows the underframe details and the braked side quite well. This wagon has roller bearings and no longer has chain pockets or pivoted spigots (maybe it never did). The ISO spigots have been adapted as shackle mountings for securing the load. Here's 25637, another wheelset/bogie carrier seen at Cork. The unbraked side this time. And finally for now, 25653 which has been converted to carry the later style of Guinness cages by the addition of more ISO spigots. This one has required a small chassis extension at each end to prevent the load overhanging the ends of the wagon: As far as I am aware, none of this series of wagon was modified with extra spigots to carry 10' containers. It was either the original 1x20' box, or 3xGuinness cages.

Considering first what we think of as the 25436 series, Pender&Richards (1967) list these wagons as: 25436, built 1965, Prototype ore, 20 ton capacity, 20'0" over headstocks, vacuum brake [it appears that this was later converted to a flat to match the rest of the series]. 25437-25980 Flat, built 1966-67, 20 ton capacity, 20'0" over headstocks, vacuum brake 'The latest flats numbered from 25437 onwards are fully vacuum braked, a small number having roller bearing axleboxes.' The 1975 WTT lists them as: 25436-25982 Flat, 20 tonne capacity, 8 tonnes tare Note the addition of 25981 and 25982 to the number series; perhaps they hadn't quite finished building the last batch when Pender&Richards went to press. Assuming the number series was continuous, it was a large batch of 547 wagons in total. The 1978, 1985, 1986 and 1990 WTTs list them in the same way. Doyle&Hirsch 1978 and 1981 have a photo of 25819 carrying chaired sleepers, and another photo of an unidentified wagon of this batch carrying a tar container. Both the pictured wagons have roller bearings. They are listed as: 25436-25982 Flat wagon 4-wheel, introduced 1966, 12 ton capacity, wheelbase 12', weight 8 tons, hand and vacuum brakes, fitted with steel floors. These flat wagons were introduced after the first two batches of cement bubbles, and used a similar 20' long, 12' wheelbase, 20t capacity chassis. As I described in the thread on the bubbles, the brake gear designs were evolving in the mid-1960s with at least 4 variants used on the bubbles: https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/17539-bubble-muddle-toil-and-trouble/ Needless to say, the flat wagons used yet another variant of brake gear! As alluded to in the Pender&Richards listing, some of these flats had plain bearings and others had roller bearings. There were more variants among the fleet too. Because so many were significantly modified later in their lives, it's quite difficult to work back to how they were originally. At the time these wagons were being built, the ISO standards for containers were newly published and intermodal transport was developing rapidly. CIE did the right thing in choosing a 20' x 8' deck size for the wagons, but initially the containers they were used with did not have ISO standard corner castings, and the early wagons may have had non-standard locating features too. Initially, it seems that many were dedicated to Guinness traffic using half-height containers with non-ISO fittings, as illustrated superbly in Brian Flannigan's photo on Flickr here: The open containers were numbered separately from the wagons; both were intially painted in all over grey livery. Here are some more images of these wagons with the matching non-ISO open top containers, linked to the IRRS Flickr archive (you'll need to be a member to see them). A pair at Mallow, one with plain bearings and one roller bearings: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570651748 A rake at Heuston showing containers being transhipped, again a mix of bearing types: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509032356 A long rake of almost brand new wagons and containers at Heuston; there are some detail variations among the wagons: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53526428997 A 1970 view where one wagon has received a coat of brown paint; the others and all the containers remain grey: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508097962 This image from Ernie on Flickr is from 1978 so a bit later; the container has been modified but the wagon is still fairly unchanged: This image in the IRRS library is rather interesting as it shows one of these wagons carrying a pre-ISO container of the more traditonal type, which is securely chained down: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570450071 This is a much later image I found elsewhere on this forum, which shows the wagon underframe fittings rather well, with an ISO container loaded: Just above each axlebox there is a pivoted spigot. In this image they are horizontal, but they could be rotated up to restrain a load such as a non-ISO container or anything else you might want to put on a flat wagon. Under each container door in this image, there is a large tray welded to the solebar, perhaps seen more clearly in the previous (Ernie) image. I think these trays were intended for holding chains, straps, shackles etc used for securing non-ISO containers or other non-standard loads. 'Chain pockets' were standard features on traditional conflat wagons. Between the spigots and the chain pockets there are large eyes protruding from the solebar. These appear on many CIE 4-wheel wagons of the period, not just the container flats, but I'm not sure exactly what they were intended for. Not all wagons of the 25436 series had these features; the early photos indicate that they were never fitted to some wagons, whilst they may have been later removed from others. With no bodywork and the solebar very 'busy' with all this stuff, there wasn't a good place to paint the wagon number and other technical data. The number was often painted on the edge of a chain pocket in rather small numerals. When these wagons were built, the standard height for an ISO container was 8'0" and the floor height was suitable to carry that within the CIE loading gauge. However, within a few years the 8'6" container height became standard and later there were 9'6" high containers too. Neither of these could be carried on a 25436 series container flat; the 8'6" problem was quickly solved with the 27301 series flats and the 40' bogie flats, but I think it wasn't until the CPWs were introduced that 9'6" containers could be carried country-wide. Consequently, the large fleet of 25436 flats became unsuitable for carrying most shipping containers (though they were fine for the half-height Guinness containers and any 8' high boxes). But in the meantime, I'd invite you to click on this link to see a very interesting photo (to wagon nerds like me) from Jonathan Allen on Flickr. It's worth a good zoom in, because it shows the evolution of the CIE 4-wheel container flat designs through the 1960s and early 1970s.. https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/49750786666 Marshalled between the H vans there are 3 container flats, each carrying a half-height container of Guinness: The nearest one is a 25201 series wagon, the predecessors with wheel handbrake and 11' wheelbase, max load 12t. The middle one is a 25436 series wagon, with its very 'busy' solebar, 12' wheelbase and 20t capacity. The third one is a 27301 series wagon, 22'6" long with a 14' wheelbase, and designed with a lower deck height for 8'6" containers. Again from Jonathan Allen on Flickr, this shows how an 8' container on a 25436 series flat (the more distant wagon) is the same overall height as an 8'6" container on a 27301 series flat (the nearer two wagons): https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/49888330362 Many of the 25436 series flats were converted into other things. In the next post I'll look at some that survived.