jhb171achill

Interesting! They could do with them on many train services, and buses and the Luas (different company or not), and in stations, to deal with the scumbags that hang about certain railways stations and cause trouble on trains. And give them EXTENSIVE powers to make these people absolutely terrifed of the consequences of messing about.........

New one to me!

On another model website, when you open up "Irish" railway threads, subjects which have been updated but you have not yet read are in bold print, with ones that you're up to date with in ordinary print............ so it's easy to see where new posts or new updates to existing posts are..... I was interested in the map, too. I must persuade maah ole school buddy in Tennessee, y'all, to add himself (and start an Irish layout, instead of footering about with narrow gauge Mallards and Flying Scotsmen....) Yee-ha.... Come to think of it, I know a guy in Perth, WA, who may also have an interest....

Interesting - wasn’t sure about No.1.

Yes, I think I mentioned that somewhere - I wonder if Harold H had a hand in that too.... Regarding Mayner’s comments, agree entirely.

I remember that. There were RUCTIONS over it in England!

They did. The late, great Harold Houston had a part in ensuring that BOTH 30 and 74 were preserved. jhbSenior and he were great friends, from when Senior worked on the NCC in the 1940s. Upon asking Harold one time, when he visited him after retirement in Whitehead, why 30 was that colour instead of the extremely dark green (the "green" equivalent of "navy" blue, I suppose), Harold's honest answer was "I don't know!" The GNR tank in there is also correct, and some CDR items are in actual CDR paint. The Dargan Saloon has been repainted; the colour is more than close enough though. I think it had been grey in its later CIE ownership, but I'd have to check. The C & L locomotive is OK - the company had engines in two shades of green and also one in black when the GSR took over and dropped them all into a pint glass filled with grey paint! The Derry shunter, No. 1, is still in its original paintwork, and I think the DNGR coach may also be. The GNR railbus was repainted, as it was fully rebuilt; the paint scheme appears to be accurate enough - AND - it's in FULL working order! An interesting thing about this is that when it was restored in the mid 1990s, the then RPSI policy was to have accurate liveries on everything, and coaches 9 (K15) and 114 were painted also in GNR blue and cream. As treasurer, it fell to me to pay the bills; the supplier we used was Jamison & Green in Belfast. Long before things like RAL codes were ever heard of, this company had a man who was about to retire, and had mixed paints for the company all his life. This company hed previously supplied dark blue and cream paint to the GNR itself, and this oul boy had the mix in his head, and written down somewhere; both colours, plus UTA green, were STILL on their books. I passed this info on to UFTM, one of whose leading lights was also on the RPSI Council at the time, so we could be sure that this railbus got the right colour. If anyone in the preservation world is reading this, it might be worth investigating (for future reference) if this company still hold these records. I believe the man who knew was called George something, but I digress.... The CDR "Phoenix" is repainted, and accurate apart from the lettering which should be pale yellow, not white. The Donegal tank engine is a mess. What may well be original cab and side tank paint, but the boiler and dome painted black. While many looked like this in use, they were actually painted red! Sadly, this has been perpetrated with another restored CDR tank up in Donegal - black dome is wrong. Looks like a pimple on its face...... Mind you, red is a most impractical colour for a working steam loco - GNR blue locos also ended up with black-looking domes, which were blue! Enough - time for my tea. Relax, everyone; that's tonight's boring post done with........! Just to show I'm not totally fixated, I actually like BOTH of those - even the blue tank engine. But I am also almost the only person on the planet who actually liked the 1980s "Desert Sand" Dublin bus livery, which has been described as the "vomit" livery by some..... (so what would I know, with taste like that!).

To go back to the original topic, about RTR steam engines. As others mentioned, this conversation has sprung up here and there over the years, often morphing into "wish lists". From a commercial point of view, doing a model of a diesel or a CIE coach means (usually) a model which could have been seen anywhere from Cork to Dundalk, Rosslare to Sligo; and even Cavan, Monaghan and Dundalk, as well as the main line to Belfast - and all of this over a period of maybe 40 years. 141s and laminates even made it to Omagh and Derry. Fertiliser bogies were regulars in the NCC (Waterside) station, so would fit a layout based on the NCC main line. Killagan, 1980, anyone? Nice! But steam engines.... Many were only to be seen in one area. You can't do an accurate west of Ireland layout with GNR 4.4.0s or Bandon tanks. You can't do ANYWHERE but the main Cork line with 400s, 500s or 800s. The only diesel equivalent here is B101s, which rarely strayed off the GSWR lines. Even the most common steam loco, the J15, was absent from West Cork, as were all tender engines. The northern equivalent, the "WT" class "2.6.4T "Jeep", was rare away from the NCC, apart from residencies of a few of the class on the GNR in the late 60s; they even managed appearances on the "Derry Road", but only right at the end. Apart from RPSI outings, they were not known anywhere on the rest of the CIE system, and J15s never worked on the GNR, let alone the NCC, bar a bit of York Road shunting with RPSI-owned 186 about 1968! Just about any steam engine suffers from several things, in terms of its application to layouts: 1. In terms or realistic operation, lack of geographical variety. 2. Cost. With such small runs, very pricey per item and way beyond the means of some modellers. 3. Less interest, especially amongst modellers too young to remember steam working. Even an oul fossil like me has more memories of steam in Indonesia, Austria, the Czech Republic, Germany, Luxembourg, South Africa and India - than Ireland. 4. In commercial terms, as the IRM Brigade will, I am sure, agree - a very tiny proportion of an already tiny market. In an ideal world, a Donegal Class 5A 2.6.4T would win hands-down as a RTR model for 12mm gauge - but how many would pay perhaps €300 / €350 a pop, and buy three? Nothing remotely close to any sort of viable market. We are all aware of the two steam lists - (a) our personal "wish lists", and (b) what we know would be the most popular, whether they were our own favourites or not. From a commercial point of view, that translates to "least unpopular". I think that the 00 Works model, with small batches of RTR, is the best way; a few collectors items like, say, a RTR "800" class, should become highly sought-after collector's items, if such a thing appeared - maybe a GN "S" class too, who knows. A UTA "Jeep" would be a winner, without doubt, in the north - if that place was a great deal bigger (or more densely populated with railway enthusiasts - but who in Cork or Limerick might buy one? I am certain that a well-chosen, limited edition run of RTR steam is a good idea, and I don't want to yet again open a vast debate aboput which it should be, but manufacturers will tread warily and sensibly, i am sure.

Well.... OK, first, as a one-time preservationist, I am well aware of the outrage when anyone dares to even comment on colours of things, so I do not want to stoke that; I've been there, got the T shirt, having once painted a coach at Whitehead in a gaudy purply red, as the paint supplier made a mess of the order......... so, for any active preservationists, please take my comments as factual. In Cultra, everything is correct except: 1. Maedb. She's in CIE Inchicore-painted green, not GSR green as sometimes mistakenly assumed, but has GSR markings which were not put there until she arrived in Cultra. As a GS loco, she'd a have a different green, and yellow and black lining, not white and black, which was pure CIE. 2. BCDR No. 30. The green is light years too light, makes her look like an Isle of Man engine. BCDR green was very dark indeed, and if this wretched covid thing EVER ends, can be seen in the Malahide museum on two models. 3. CDRJC open wagon. This is in actual original Donegal paint, but seems to have acquired black strapping in preservation. That's not accurate. I can't fathom why the preservation movement is obsessed with painting ironwork and corner strapping on wagons black, as it never was on almost all wagon types. 4. CIE Goods Brake Van. Black and white stripes on the lookout ducket. Should be yellow and black. The CIE "roundel" and numerals aren't quite right either, but to fair, that latter is serious nit-picking! 5. Cavan & Leitrim and Castlederg coaches. The lettering on these is completely wrong. Self-adhesive "Arial" plastic lettering? The maroon appears to be correct, or certainly close enough, but the lettering would have been shaded yellow or gold leaf. Again, just for the record, but nit-picking! 6. Hunslet diesel 102. Again, very minor detail - there should be white lining around the ends yellow patches. It's been given a truly superb paint finish, it has to be said. I suspect that it's the way it is simply due to short time - it hasn't got its numbers and NIR logos last time I saw it. These were gold with white lining. 7. GSWR Explosives van. I'm not 100% on this, but last time I saw it, it occurred to me that the lettering wasn't quite right - not sure why! That's all I can remember... but again, I state the above as a matter of record for those interested. Many won't be! There was certainly a trial run to Limerick with one, though I do not recall the full details. lndeed it would - even though they didn't even run as a rake behind 800! Senior recalled them at one stage having "Great Southern Pullman" in gold letters above window level, but I've never seen a pic showing that - propably only on one, and short-lived.

The lower picture is the correct livery; upper one not, by the way. (Just in case anyone is modelling a BNCR or MR (NCC) locomotive. While "Midland red" was the way of things in Brexitland, the ex-BNCR retained the dark green, until LMS NCC days. Correct. There was never a full train of them. One each on the up and won day mails to / from Cork and Galway. They were never used elsewhere, expect perhaps as a one-off of some sort long after they were no longer pullmans. And yes, they ended their days in the dark green, but with lining as above.

You're stretching it there! In immediate pre-steam days, most of what ran in Wisht Caark was actually not of CBSCR parentage, anyway, so 90 is as good as it gets, indeed. My understanding is that the DCDR will in time return it to working on public trains there. Towards the end of the CBCS system, about the only thing which REGULARLY ran on it which owed its origin to anything other than the MGWR, CIE or GSWR, was the old brake van off the Courtmac branch, T&CR No. 5 (GSR / CIE 5J)........... ........which makes one wonder why on earth the RPSI is building a new-build tender engine instead of a second "Jeep"! Soon, the nearest turntable to Waterford, Cork, Tralee, Galway, Westport, Ballina and Sligo will be in Dublin!

Ah! Got ye; I thought you MEANT Brexitland....

A MGWR anything, indeed! We've NCC, BCDR, GNR, CDR, DNGR, SLNCR, GSWR, GSR, DSER....yes, only CBSCR and MGWR are missing. Not even a wagon in the case of the CBSCR, though we've four half-decent MGWR coaches, though all virtually beyond restoration in one form or other.......

"Mainland"? Possibly due to sharing location on your iphone or something? I had to add mine........ I hovered over my place of residence on the map, and it put me about 7km away. Tried again, it did the same. Third time lucky - at least it now has me in the vicinity of where I live - even if the EXACT spot it's put me is in the middle of a 20 acre field...........

True - hence my occasional suggestions of 4 or 171....

I think the only way to do RTR steam is the likes of 00 Works small batches.

Another thing is 21mm conversion. A small few of our number use 21mm gauge. It’s easier to re-gauge a diesel than most steam! Imagine the work in re-gauging a 400 or an 800.....

Yes, that was my thoughts too. We had, during the CIE period 1945 to 1959, on carriages alone, maroon, old green, new green and then unpainted silver; plus even some green unlined secondary stock. Locos - grey, green and some black on CIE. Wagons - several shades of grey with markings in three different styles. GNR brown, GNR dark blue & cream on carriages, with locos blue or black - plus dark blue and cream railcars. NCC and BCDR (UTS) gave us BCDR maroon, NCC maroon and UTA green on coaches, and locos in NCC lined black, NCC plain (wartime) black, BCDR deep green..... and we're not into Donegal yet. The GNR had two wagon liveries. We COULD divide and subdivide to the Nth degree, as a schoolteacher of mine used to say, but we have to stick to broad definitions, at the very edges of which at least some details will blur into the next category.

That's the idea.... You raise an interesting one about non-authentic models, like (say) the orange and black Hymek and some of those other 80s yokes. I wonder how the continental "Epoch" classification treats these? Personally, I would be inclined to categorise them within whatever group they were closest to "supposed to be in", or vaguely "representative" of - in that case, the "Early Modern" (F) period / era.

Indeed, K801; it is dead, deceased and an ex-Belmond Hibernian; it has wound up its mortal and gone to join the Choir Eternale - to paraphrase John Cleese - it's a dead parrot since 2019.

The fact that it was the first nuclear-powered generator railway in the world, developed by the inventor of the greenway, William Trail. It is also the only railway in Ireland to be operated by a train consisting of a three Quality Street tins powered by a 12-year-old cycling inside it, and when going up hills a little motor which runs on eco-friendly jojobi and kale juice. Oh, sorry, the last bit's true. The new "train", Paddy.....

First, Steve, the "commissioning" of a load of GNR coaches very much impresses me! Using the system I suggested, it naturally can't tick every single box - for example, if something highly significant had happened on, say, the SLNCR or CDRJC in some year, it's more of a "localised" thing, whereas the early 1950s switch to diesel affected the remaining bit of the BCDR, and much of both the GNR's and CIE's main lines, with the all-encompassing AECs that you and I remember so well. So, I would be inclined to classify the items you mention broadly as I have added in bold to your list above. Just me tuppence worth. The periods are well-enough understood and defined. The items you mention are all within a 1937-74 range, thus obviously what I had called Eras A, B, C, F & G would not apply.

Depends. If you mean grey, full stop, for locos, this appeared with the GSWR in 1915 and spread to ALL locos in the Republic, bar the three 800s, after 1925, and it lasted until the end of steam in March 1963 on many of the dishevelled survivors. If you mean the grey AND yellow for 121s, this was short lived -= delivery 1961, until the last 121 was repainted black'n'tan c.1968. Some 121s were repainted black'n'tan after only 2 or 3 years. The two green liveries, one merging into the other, were 1945-62. Going to BosKonay's post, yes, I used to rely on the mainland European system of "epochs" when I was into Austrian narrow gauge. Epoch 1, Epoch 2, 3, 4 and so on; I had thought that the British system was based more or less on the same eras. Hattons advertise according to years or dates. Comments here have referred in the past to the "supertrain" era, the "black'n'tan" era, the "grey'n'green" era, and so on; which does just as well, but does not include the north. Because the railways in Northern Ireland were nothing to do with Britain's nationalisation, BR, Beeching or the like, also leaves a void. If all of Ireland had been CIE, it would be reasonable to talk about the GSR era (1925-45), then "grey'n'green" (1945-63); "black'n'tan" (1962-72); "Supertrain" (1972-87) and so on - but it was NOT all CIE, and those vary in periods from ten to twenty years, and make no allowance for the GNR / NCC / UTA / NIR / BCDR. With the GNR covering large parts of both sides of the border, one might then take the view that this system be used as a common reference point - but many parts of the GNR away from the main line were a system frozen in time by the time it closed. Nationalisation or grouping isn't realistic. Grouping only occurred broadly south of a line from Sligo to Cavan to Dublin. Nationalisation was not all at once like in Brexitland; the UTA took effect in 1948/9, CIE was 1950, and what was left of the GNR in 1958. One might actually even argue that the Clogher Valley was nationalised in a way in 1928, when the local authority took it over! Dieselisation was too piecemeal until the 1960s to be a coherent manner of classification. Let's look, then, at time periods, for it seems that other methods are not suitable. 1834 - 1890 Building 1890 - 1910 Second wave of government-assisted building ("Balfour" lines, most narrow gauge) 1910 - 1925 Main companies' "Heyday". (The "heyday" period?) 1925 - 1945 GSR era; if applied to the north, the understanding would be that the "heyday" continues in the north, even as just about everything south becomes CIE 1945 - 1960 Transition Era. THREE aspects to this: Closures (1940s NCC & post-fuel crisis CIE; 1950s UTA, GNR & BCDR, and narrow gauge), Modernisation (mass withdrawals of old rolling stock and replacement by new stock (UTA & (especially) CIE); and dieselisation: gradual elimination of steam on most of the network and mass introduction of AEC railcars on both GNR & CIE, experimental one-offs on the NCC, and MED's on the Bangor line 1950-2; B101, A & C class locomotives CIE. 1960 - 1972 Consolidation era. After years of decline, and the end of the vehemently anti-rail Stormont policies and reduction of the UTA to what is now NIR, and final large closures (West Cork 1961, Tralee - Limerick, Limerick - Sligo '63, Mallow - Waterford & Croom branch 1967), plus final end of steam on NIR, it's now a smaller, more standardised, modern railway north and south. 1972 - 1995 A diesel-operated, air-con modern carriages, and containerised freight railway operated in a steam-type environment, with semaphore signals, a lot more shunting than the 1972 Rail Modernisation Plan ever envisaged, and working practices going back to the Norman invasion. We might call this the "Early Modern" era. 1995 - date Contemporary era. Freight decline, locomotive replacement by railcars, the "no-shunt railway" comes of age, along with virtual elimination of semaphore signalling, computers doing more an more work both on trains and off them, and in public interfaces. For modellers, that suits well. If we divide these into periods, we have: A Pre 1910 B Heyday Period C GSR Period D Transition Period E Consolidation period F Early Modern Period G Contemporary (or 21st century) Period. Footnote: From the first ever infernal combustion yoke on the CDR in 1906, to the dimming of the fire in the last NIR Jeep in 1970, was a period of 64 years - WAY in excess of most other countries. So in Ireland the "steam era" and "diesel era" just doesn't make sense; the Sligo line saw little steam on passenger trains after 1952, whereas steam was a vibrant part of summer NCC traffic until 1968/9.

Well, there's Georgia, Ohio and Chicago above. A school friend of mine (fifty years ago!) lives in Tennessee, but he's more of a live steam man. He has a beautiful British Railways "Brittannia", 5 ins gauge, live steam. Approaching retirement now, he's starting in H0, so he may well turn up here at some stage....... He, in turn, is in touch with another mutual school colleague who lives in Texas, but he's not a railway enthusiast! I'm sure I'm not the only one who sometimes jumps to assume that more of us are based in Ireland than we actually are...