jhb171achill

H Gricer, I suspect that you’re partly pointing your comments at me. If not, please forgive my incorrect assumption. If so, let me assure you that as a member of the IRRS for 45 years, and jhb171Senior being one of the first founding members, I have the greatest respect for the society’s activities. Many members (voluntary, as you say) have been of great assistance to me over many, many years, and several with whom I am in regular communication continue to be, with regard to future issues I’m researching. If your comments regarding “thinking carefully” before posting are slanted towards me, rest assured that I am well aware of how the society works internally, and I do indeed “think” before posting. I am not sure if you think that personally, I try to take “pops” at the society, but if so I will reiterate what I said above; as evidenced by agreeing this very day to do a couple of talks in the future. As a volunteer in the RPSI and DCDR for virtually all my teen and adult life, I know very well the machinations, let us say, of the innards of a voluntary railway-interest body. I know well the frustrations, successes, and commitments of what, and how, volunteers put into these things. Often, I sat at the top table at an AGM and had to listen to endless bitching, moaning and idiotic criticism of the voluntary activities and (volunteer) management decisions of the voluntary “workers” and, indeed (committee) “management” of both societies. Personally speaking, for me it was water off a duck’s back, and I thought (of the critic); “what would you know, I’ve a locomotive to light at 2 am on Saturday”.... or whatever! There are two sides to all issues. Just as it’s not good enough to constantly bitch at, and criticise unpaid volunteers (clearly, you’d agree with that), there may be times when some issues within a society may justifiably be at least mentioned. This includes ANY society. Your local golf club, the IRRS, ITG, RPSI or whoever. I do know, and I fully accept this is purely my own personal view, that when involved in RPSI and DCDR management for some 25 years, when I heard of undue or unfair criticism of matters within my remit (usually finance, dining cars, health & safety, or operations), I might well have whinged back (!) but I would have privately given consideration as to whether the critic actually had a point or not - even if I, or the committee, didn’t particularly want to hear it. The point here is that neither I (back in the day!), or any voluntary body I was involved in as a volunteer, or just a member of - is above criticism. I doubt that a solitary person here does not appreciate the efforts of all volunteers. The IRRS has been about for some 70 years, and thank goodness it has; the loss of material otherwise would be absolutely unthinkable. However, just as nonsensical criticism is at best pointless, and at worst plain wrong, it is reasonable to allow that every single policy they’ve ever had, or every single individual involved over 70 years, is unlikely always to be right. For any body, voluntary or not, to claim perfection (and I know you did not say this) would be equally nonsensical. Personally, I have never publicly posted my opinions (to which, like all, I am perfectly entitled, like you), on how any of the railway bodies, IRRS included, are run - and I won’t; I’m sure you’d agree it’s inappropriate. Nor, most certainly, have I ever named any individual in any of them, even if privately I would differ with their way of doing things. You mentioned “someone” using the expression “squirrelling away” about donations of photographic collections. Anyone reading all this stuff will appreciate that this was my comment. So, allow me to comment. At no stage did I mention the IRRS. I remain holding my opinions on the IRRS policy regarding photos to myself. I have not stated them here and will not - other than to make the positive comment that I am confident that, among other things, the current conservation activities - voluntarily - within the society, are very much advanced in recent years. There are a number of photographic repositories. They fall into six categories. First, three professional (NLI being one), and three private and / or voluntary (the IRRS and Ernie’s superb archive being examples). Within both of these headings, three sub-divisions. 1. Those who make their collections unconditionally available to the public. Ernie, much appreciated by all here, is one. 2. Those who make their stuff available, but perhaps with conditions (eg you have to be a member, or (Lawrence / O’Dea collections) on payment of a fee - absolutely fair enough, of course. 3. And - those who retain all material donated, disseminating it periodically, selectively, only to certain people or entities, or whatever. Thus, “squirrelling away”. In (1) and (2), 100%, sure, totally justified. In (3), people are perfectly entitled to opinions as to whether or not this is good practice. People are entitled to express their opinions, civilly. Again, I’ll keep my personal opinions to myself. However, should anyone else see fit to express dissatisfaction with the policy of either the IRRS, NLI or any other individual or entity in connection with its stewardship of its collections, this is not necessarily a personal attack on anyone, thus not at all ”slanderous”. I doubt if anyone here - certainly not me - has any intention of being slanderous. As far as I am personally concerned, I hope this clears the air. Now, maybe we’ll go back to West Cork, to keep on track, as it were, irrespective of 30 mph speed limits.....

Interesting. I was sure I found green on one of them some years ago.... !

They were slow. Various circulars survive showing very numerous slacks on already-slow track.

“Back in the day”, this was very much the case. One of my late uncles was an insurance salesman, whose working life would have started in the early 1930s, and he would travel about by train. He would arrive in some distant, exotic place like Navan or Carlow, and meet his client. A pot of tea or a sup of whiskey would follow, depending on the client, and they’d rarely get much business done before lunch. Late afternoon train back to Dublin. Point being: the business life of people back then was much more relaxed, without quite the same emphasis on rush hours as now. Had any of the CBSCR survived, an arrival in Cork by 9 at the latest would probably be obligatory. If operated by, say, a 4x 2600 or a 3x ICR, it’s interesting to speculate how long it would take from Bantry to Cork. Most of the smaller stops would probably be closed and at most he’d have one other train to cross.

By the end, according to several late enthusiasts who were experts on the west Cork lines, the dieselisation would obviously mean greatly reduced loco Dept. staffing on the system. This led to frequent forays of main line drivers and firemen when things got busy, e.g. the beet season. By 1961 there was but one “Bandon tank” serviceable, but it spent most of its time shunting Glanmire Road. As I’m sure most know, the pair of J30’s, 90 & 100, spent their last few years double-heading the summer specials between Clonakilty Jct and Courtmacsherry. I believe a “main line” engine brought them down to there from Cork. Once they put a “C” class on that duty (1958 or 9), that one wasn’t steam any more. 90 remained shunting Albert Quay and Glanmire for a couple of years more, and should shortly join the Q for a return to traffic at Downpatrick, releasing CSET No. 1 for a much-needed break. In the final days, steam was rare, with nothing regular after c. 1958. A GSWR tank engine or possibly 464 occasionally deputised for the railcar when it was away for maintenance. I could be wrong on this as it was a long time ago I was told, but the late James Boyd believed that this was every two to four weeks. The branch train towards the end was a new “tin van” and an old GSWR dide corridor bogie compo of 1910-20 era design - or - a GSWR 6-wheel passenger brake and a six wheel compo (ex-Midland, usually - a lot of old MGWR 6-wheelers ended their days in Cork). One of the great beauties of the “Green’n’Grey” era was the likelihood of seeing a branch train consisting of a six-month-old diesel hauling a brand new “tin van”, followed by an 1887 six-wheeled third and a 1915 bogie coach! Or, elsewhere, an 1887 steam engine hauling a brand new laminate and an 1892 wooden 6-wheel brake 3rd!

Yep, as far as passengers were concerned, that’s it!

True, Galteemore....... To go back to topic, the following public timetable (1958) makes it easier to work out passenger turns in West Cork. As you can see, some ECS workings were very much the norm. The entire Cork - Bantry service was worked by one AEC set - a necessary RTR thing, by the way, for the entire CIE and GNR systems, and a lot of the UTA & early NIR....

That carriage was scheduled for preservation by CIE but was scrapped! Had it survived, it would almost certainly have gone with “Maedb” and would now reside in Cultra.

Very true, minister - in my remark, no criticism of the voluntary work within the IRRS was intended as such.

The O'Dea collection, thankfully, is publicly available. Even before online platforms, you could make an appointment to go into the National Photographic Archive and browse O'Dea and Lawrence to your hearts content. J P O'Dea specifically wanted his pics to be seen, and rightly so, and this is precisely why he did not donate them to other places! It is good to have this, and Ernie's absolutely invaluable archive.

Plasticard or brass?

Profuse apologies, Jawfin - I missed this at the time! 836 at Downpatrick is the same as 837 at Mullingar; I think just those two were built together. 813 was different, though of similar external "house style". I'll try and find a diagram tomorrow of both in original state. Sure, DiveC, again I'll see what I can dig out tomorrow. However, from memory, they are very un-detailed diagrams - only very general outlines, and not 100% accurately to scale, I suspect.

Quite late into the '50s, the Ivatt tank would also get a spin down the main line a couple of times a month when the railcar set was away for maintenance! I think a "C" or another railcar set took over before the "End"!

The Cork Area IRRS's Ray Good, who lives near the erstwhile Clonakilty Junction, is probably the best expert alive on the latter days of the West Cork lines. If anyone wants, I'll put you in touch with him.

I had a copy of that, but to be fair, it's not a great book. The info, yes, but not much unseen elsewhere - no author or publisher is mentioned in it. It appears to be privately published. The pages in my copy started coming apart almost as soon as I opened and I have to be honest - I dumped it as a result..... Probably the best archive of photos is Jimmy O'Dea's stuff at www.nli.ie, or the photos of Henry and Richard Casserley which have appeared in various other books. The West Cork system is probably best covered by Ernie Shepherd's book some years ago, but this was short on post-1925 info and especially photos.

Trying to crop them, turn 'em right way up, etc., but I can't work out how!

OK, 1960 to start, then 1930. Now, 1930. This will include Macroom, Kinsale and Schull (S & SLR). If there is any other year you need, i think I have all from 1926 at least. I also have appendix supplements regarding signal cabin hours, loco whistle codes and cattle traffic arrangements, all that sort of thing.

Yes. Gimme a year and I’ll post it here. I actually worked out a sequence some years ago and came to the conclusion that a realistic mix was (from memory) 7 locos, one bring a pilot in Cork, and one AEC railcar set which did two return trips a day. I thinks that’s what it was. I opted for five “C” class, 90, and 464 for the locos. A GSWR tank engine would be another option. Its a shame the J15s never set foot there - indeed, I'm unaware of ANY tender engines going anywhere in West Cork ever.

Yes, you're absolutely right about Shannonvale - I'm thinking "layout license" here! Obviously, the CIE train loco could have easily shunted it otherwise, if the track was fit for it. Yes, the sugar factories are another good idea. Loads of Leslie's corrugated opens (to do a beet season properly on a factory-based layout, you'd need fifty of the things! Tuam used its own locos plus CIE's "G"s, later actually hiring G611 after CIE had withdrawn it from their own use. Newmarket, also perhaps Fenit, Castleisland and Mitchelstown, or Banagher or possibly Edenderry........good fodder for thought.

Interesting that there's a discrepancy, as while we've already observed that mistakes can be made, I have never personally found any discrepancy in old IRRS journal stuff, NOR, of course, in official records!

As an aside, and hoping not to stray too far off topic, things like Sentinels and various one-off small locos can be seen as a little too specialist or limited for many layouts. However.... despite Ireland having WAAAY fewer industrial sidings, and therefore industrial locos than the Land of Brexit, and not only that, but most of what we DID have shunted by "railway company engines" rather than private ones, there are many instances that can provide inspiration for a small shunting layout. From the Derry docks to Courtaulds in Carrickfergus, to Guinness' Brewery, the former Allmans distillery loco shunting Cork's docks - and then small "company" engines like West Cork's 90, 100, 299, "Argadeen" and "St Molaga", a "G" on the North City Mills, the are a number of "modellable" scenarios, both real and imagined, around a potential prototype like that. Market sidings in Omagh and Limerick, and probably other places - a home for a Sentinel, of course. Most of the above examples are in or around cities, but many specialist sidings were in place all around the remoter west too. The Achill line, or all places, had in its short life no less than three short lines off it in planning stage. A turf carrying line of 2 miles or so near Achill, to Gubbardletter; a branch to a small pier at Inishlyre, near Westport (PERFECT for a small but highly scenic industrial siding); and right at closure time a series of turf sidings near Carrowgarve, outside Newport - which, if built, would have kept Westport - Newport open for a few years more as goods-only. Ballysodare had Polloxfen's Mills, with its cramped layout (perfect for a modeller short of space or time) necessitating 3-way turnouts, otherwise rare in Ireland. Shannonvale in Co Cork; might a Sentinel have worked there if it was busier? If anyone was ever modelling something like the Blessington tramway, it's not inconceivable that an outfit like that could have taken one of these locos, or had it lasted longer, bought the GSR ones. Guinness's might have taken one or two on, either new or ex-GSR.... So there's potential there, both in real life and in the "modeller's licence" world.

Which issue, do you know?

You could say that it was sent there after the Limerick markets line closed, as they had a need for something to shunt up there....maybe include some sort of industrial siding, maybe for turf? Such a thing was once proposed for near Achill, and after all a G was sent to shunt Ballina & the Crossmolina siding in 1962.....

One of the "Rosslare Express" set built 1906 for Cork - Rosslare boat trains via Mallow & Waterford. Sister vehicle of the RPSI's 12-wheel brake tricompo 861, currently undergoing gradual rebuild at Whitehead. There were VERY few 12-wheelers in Ireland!

I like the sound on that loco - it's pretty realistic. Does anyone know what type of loco it was recorded from?