jhb171achill

I'm on my day off. It's Ballygowan water......

I love the one at Westport.......he's pulling into the Achill platform. I wonder is that a D16 - if it is, the film is earlier than 1940 (1937 at least). It could be a G2 coming to the end of a journey if it's 1940 or more. I can't make it out too clearly. The colour clip shows a carriage in (very heavily weathered!) GSR maroon. Paint was comparatively expensive then and many carriages in secondary use and most wagons rarely saw a lick of paint. Who was the priest who filmed it, I wonder? Does he have any other material?

That "tippex" livery was surely the best on those locos! I liked the "set of points" logo too....

Believe it or not, that's a faded "standard" one; I saw this often. The white lettering has become dulled and the tan surround faded!

I want the buns.......

The tender was very different on the British ones.

Smokebox door - yes, you're right, I'd forgotten that. Inchicore chimneys too, perhaps. Im surprised, thinking of it now, that the model was never released in grey - they were all grey up to the late 40s, and some remained that way after that. The black one with yellow snail is entirely inaccurate on both counts and probably copied from the RPSI's treatment of both 461 and 184 that way in the early 90s. This is why it is never wise - especially in Ireland - to take livery details from preservation; this is doubtless the source of the fictitious black-framed, snail-bedecked green "livery" for a G class loco! The model with the black livery, light green snail and red lining is accurate, as a one off. That particular loco was painted like that for the Rosslare Express for a short time in the 1950s. It must have looked very smart.

There were a few detail differences indeed, though I would leave it to those more technically informed than me to list them! "Blinkers" on the British ones, and gauge are of course the most obvious. I've an idea the wheels were slightly a different diameter, but I could be mixing that up with something else.

Mayner, of this parish, is as I understand it, planning a model of this loco. Regarding the carriages, the first one (a lavatory first) and the second one (a 3rd) would be included in the subject matter of a recent post on MGWR six-wheelers as an essential part of the pre-1963 railway scene. Maybe the moderators could provide a link here to those posts? The gist of it was discussion on how essential the standard MGWR six-wheeler is on any layout on GSR / CIE at any time 1925-63, and suggestions regarding kits, and Allen Doherty's very helpful Worsley Works "scratch-aid" kits. Given enough orders, he will make kits of these. Thus leaves the next vehicle - a bogie 3rd, by the look of it - possibly a 2nd / 3rd. That would need to be scratch built from a drawing. If you're not that fussy about accuracy, there are some British SECR kits which could be botched to provide a half-reasonable approximation, though hardly worthy company for the loco kit and six-wheelers. The fourth vehicle may be dining car No. 1, as the picture was almost certainly posed. In service, it is unlikely that it went beyond Galway. This vehicle was later rebuilt as a conventional coach. Again, if drawings could be found, that's the way to go - a complete scratch build is necessary. This vehicle would be the most challenging, as I am unaware of a drawing of it, and photos won't be plentiful as (a) it didn't stay that way for long, (b) few pictures of it exist and © I don't know of any other coach which might be botched to even approximate to it, let alone serve as a sensible donor. Finally, the van. This is a Cusack high-roofed passenger brake, non birdcage. There should be more info on those, probably in the IRRS photos, though access to that collection isn't easy, even for bona fide researchers. Overall, as the "Tourist Train", the actual train make-up would have varied; as mentioned in other posts, no train hardly - not even a special or specific one - ever had two carriages the same almost ever, prior to 1972 or so. Livery was mid brown with yellow lining normally, but for a few years after 1905, and with all vehicles in this photo, a livery of royal blue and white, lined gold, was used by the MGWR. As you'd expect in steam days, white (not even cream) upper panels became filthy very quickly and they reverted to brown after only a few years. Indeed, it's probable that no more than a quarter of the fleet - if that - ever received this livery at all. Some locos were painted blue lined in black and gold or black and white to match; others remained standard MGWR lined grass green. The loco in this picture doesn't look pristine, so may be green rather than blue.

'Tis a K1 class.....

The 67 (middle one) is a bit too dark, Eoin, but the left hand one too light. Something in between. If you get a decent recent shot of 186 out on an RPSI special (loads on Internet) that would show it. The RPSI folks didn't like the (authentic) grey smokebox and chimney, thus "let" them remain dirtier thus creating an illusion of these being black, or at any rate darker. This would not have been the case when operating in GSWR / GSR / CIE days - the loco was either clean all over or dirty all over.

Absolutely superb work!

Actually, I'm looking at it again. It HAS a shorter wheelbase. Thus, it is probably a very old vehicle of 1870-5. That being the case, it could possibly be early Midland or GSWR. I'd need to see a much better pic of the window profile to determine.

Design wise, looks that way, but the SLNCR didn't sell any old stock to the GSR. It will be some GSR constituent. On the basis of elimination, it's not Waterford & Wexford, GSWR or DSER. Any old flat-sided Midland stock was - as far as I'm aware - four wheeled and of pre-1877-ish era. That yoke is a six wheeler. Any GSWR stock which was flat sided had different windows and again, would be pre-mid-1870s and thus, most likely, a shorter wheelbase. Most stock this old from both the MGWR and GSWR had been broken up long,long before these turf conversions took place. It's not Tramore stock. It's not WLWR. I'm wondering if it is ex Cork & Bandon. Beyond that I'd be stumped....

Interesting. The mix is apparent; of the two derailed, the one on the left is GSWR and on right a classic MGWR bogie of Cusack era. The six wheelers in the background are interesting. Left: DSER. Right: looks MGWR. But the one in the middle with the straight sides is a puzzle. It's possibly a West Cork or Macroom vehicle, but I'm not sure. The straight sides throw me a bit. DSER, GSWR or MGWR it isn't.

BCDR maroon was quite dark - the two restored BCDR coaches at Downpatrick are correctly done, lining, lettering and all. In pre-war times the lining was gold and a full crest was carried on the side. At some stage, possibly as early as the mid 30s, but certainly mid 40s, lining tended to be a straw colour with a gold-ish tint, and crests were often not applied. Coach ends were maroon, and roofs a mid grey.

I had a note somewhere of the number of that Craven with the logos. Anyone know?

MikeO, GNR stuff was the same - all types of coach of all ages on all trains, but obviously all GNR stock. Re liveries I'm texting this from an iPhone in a tram - not easy - will reply in detail when I get home!

Murrayec & Mayner..... excellent news from both of you.

Good to see the TT at Tara Junction working better than the one at Claremorris!

I'd love to see that in the flesh, Andy... Noel - the carriages in that clip are all GSWR 1885-95 period. Wayne gets out of a "lavatory composite", i.e. with a loo accessible to the two first class compartments, but not the thirds at the ends! Same era & origin of coach.

Passenger Train Formations – CIE As a result of several recent conversations, it occurred to me that the random nature of train formations in the recent past is something which occasionally comes up. Today’s enthusiast has been used to some forty years where train formations are entirely of a single uniform type of stock. This was not only rare in the past, it was almost unknown in day to day service – even when the 800 class were introduced. The modeller of anything prior to 1972 might be interested in what follows – simply an absolutely random selection of ordinary everyday trains from photos taken between the mid 1930s and mid 1960s. This will give a snapshot of typical train formations in the grey’n’green and black’n’tan eras. An absolutely uniform row of anything is, in all reality, unrealistic from that era! 1959 Dublin suburban, steam, hauled MGWR 6w 2nd, MGWR 6w 1st (now downgraded), DSER 6w 3rd, DSER bogie brake 3rd, 2 x GSWR bogie 3rds, MGWR full passenger brake - unusually for then, still with birdcage. 1934 Cobh; probably up mail GSWR high-roof composite, GSWR low roof brake 3rd, GSWR low roof 3rd, GSWR high-roof coach, and a mail van of some sort at the back. All bogie. 1930 Achill MGWR 6w full passenger brake, MGWR bogie tricomposite (now 1st / 3rd) 1952 Clondalkin; down night mail GSWR bogie mail van, unidentified (prob GSWR) 6 wheel mail van, GSWR low-roofed bogie 3rd, Bredin, early CIE Bredin lookalike, an old wooden brake bogie, plus what looks like another low roofed bogie 3rd after it. A few four wheelers bring up the rear; the photo isn’t great, but I think they are horse boxes! A 400 class up front. 1957 Skirting Killiney Bay – local from Bray Park Royal, Bredin, Park Royal, GSWR non corridor bogie brake 3rd, GSWR low roofed third. This is the ONLY train in this selection so far with more than one coach of the SAME type! Rathpeacon, 1951; up train Ancient 6w full brake – looks GSWR, GSWR 1924-series high-roofed composite, high roofed GSWR 3rd, low roofed GSWR third, and a low-roofed coach at the end – looks like a 1901-5 type GSWR type. At the far end, a six wheeled brake of some sort. Easter 1956, and 802 is lifting the following out of Kingsbridge with the down mail: Heavily rebuilt 6w mail van – looks GSW by origin, but could possibly be a GSR rebuild of an MGWR type; GSWR corridor composite (I think), low roof GSWR third, high roof MGWR, low roof GSWR, the next one is GSWR but I can’t make out what it is, then a Bredin, then a six wheeled van. Mallow, 1956, up train GSW high roof 3rd, two old GSWR mail vans each of a different design, brand new laminate, Bredin, an old wooden coach I can’t make out (possibly a dining car), several vans and a six wheeled passenger brake. Dungarvan, 1961 B101, Laminate, GSWR high-roofed 3rd, GSWR low roofed, another GSWR low-roof of a different design, and what could possibly be a GNR wooden bogie, possibly GSWR. And finally, U class 197 arrives in Amiens St from Howth with a mix – all now in CIE green – of a GNR brake 2nd, a GNR 2nd, a GSWR third and I can’t make out the last one with the engine smoke. Finally, finally, we’re into black’n’tan diesel days; the following are all a combination of random photos and memories of mine from between 1968 and 1974. 1. An “A” with a tin van, suburban Bredin, main line Bredin, Park Royal & Laminate. There’s another van – probably a heating van. 2. One old wooden GSWR bogie brake, Park Royal, Bredin, Craven and tin van. 3. Park Royal, Laminate, Bredin, and three wooden bogies, no two the same, but all GSWR. 4. And finally, one more with more than one the same! First, B150 leaves Connolly in 1973 with a tin van, Park Royal, Laminate, older laminate, two Park Royals, laminate and a van at the end of some sort. Next, in 1974, leaving Tralee, we have a 141 hauling three laminates of two designs, one Craven, one full parcels / mail brake (GSR / early CIE?), a wooden GSWR bogie and a BR genny van. I have often commented on the lack of uniformity of trains in the past, I wrote this intending to illustrate the point to assist modellers of the period, but I find myself surprising myself too – look how many trains above have even two of the one type, never mind a rake of them! I recall watching the 10:30 down Cork passing Port Laoise in 1977 or 8. There were ten bogies and two vans. I think there were two Cravens and two Park Royals or something like that, all separately amongst a hotch potch mix of various types of laminates and so on. One van was a 322X series, the other a BR….

Firstly, Minister, there were less of them than the other companies. But also, exactly as you suggest, civil war losses and probably arrears of maintenance put paid to more. They didn't disappear entirely. Senior remembered their distinctive door handles when commuting on the line between 1922 and 1937, and photos taken in the 1950s still show the odd one.

Not only suitable, but in a Midland days these engines pulled little else in passenger trains! It's like a new 071 and Mk 2s on a layout based in 1985! In GSR days, same story exactly. In CIE days, obviously every steam or diesel loco hauled passenger trains consisting of ancient and modern, everything from the oldest then in traffic (1877 six wheeler) to brand new laminates, but these MGWR six wheeled yokes were very much in there among them. Former MGWR stock made it all over the GSWR and DSER, and were regulars in West Cork right until closure, with a couple of old six-wheeled brake thirds still on the Drimoleague - Baltimore line (along with one or two equally venerable antiques of GSWR parentage). At least one managed to hop onto the Tramore line. Six were borrowed by the Belfast & Co Down in the mid 1910s.

I wouldn't say very little immediately after the formation, but while much GSWR and MGWR stuff got transferred onto the South Eastern, not so much DSER stock went elsewhere. While I can't quote actual statistics, I do know that by 1950 a large proportion of DSER stock is no longer listed as being on the books. Then, over 1951/2, CIE build a lot of new stock, thus cascading more six-wheelers from elsewhere onto Bray - Amiens St & Harcourt St services. By the mid 50s, the DSER is a mix of new CIE, the odd Bredin, brand new Park Royals, and a mixture (especially in terms of suburban six-wheelers) of DSER, GSWR and MGWR stock. By the late 50s, most surviving pre-1925 main line or bogie stock is GSWR, while surviving six wheelers, as excursion / branch line / peak period stock, appear to be mostly MGWR, but many GSWR types still lurking. For Mayner's 650 class kit - or indeed any MGWR prototype - or just about any steam loco in CIE days, even into the diesel "C" class era, the solid old wooden Midland six-wheeler is not only compatible, it's as good as obligatory. By 1959, very few DSER coaches at all exist. And - crucially - for a DSER modeller, since ex-DSER stock (a) became rarer quicker, and (b) seem to have remained on home territory, the following conclusions can be drawn: 1. Only a DSER loco, or a Midland of GSWR one know to have worked the DSER line, is properly or normally compatible with DSER stock. CIE being the hotchpotch working museum that it was, I'm sure there was the odd exception, but that would be the general idea. 2. A layout based elsewhere is not the most realistic place for a DSER coach! Again, the odd exception might happen, such as a GAA special from, say, Wexford to Thurles!