jhb171achill

That is truly superb work.

Broithe - could be, never thought of that.... Mike 84c - you've nothing to be sorry for, my friend; I wish I had your modelling skills! And please do keep posting your pictures! Banana skins, indeed; the lack, until comparatively recently, of any decent amount of colour photos - and, ones which had retained decent colour resolution over the years - didn't help. Nor did the often badly weathered nature of many items of rolling stock..... On a general note, I always think a good dose of heavy weathering can cover up, on a model, details we mightn't be certain of....

I was asked recently about this; some confusion occasionally reigns! "Snails" will variously be seen on both preserved items of locos and rolling stock, and models, which, unfortunately, aren't the correct colours. For many, of course, it doesn't matter, but in the interests of historical accuracy for those who seek to recreate such things, here goes: Steam Locomotives Always EDN*, never pale yellow; despite the fact that loco numerals in CIE days WERE in pale yellow. Neither snails nor numerals were ever white, unless one includes a temporarily chalked number in 1959 on the buffer beam of a Cavan & Leitrim loco! EDN+ "snails" were always lined in gold, as on carriages pre-1955, and on buses well into the 60's. If anyone wants an accurate representation of what was actually therefore the ONLY variety ever to grace a steam loco tender, the ones on 461 currently, and that on display in the "Headhunters" Railway Museum in Enniskillen, are correct (the latter being original). Thus a grey loco should have an unlined pale yellow cab numeral, and a lined EDN "snail". When locos were green, an gold lined EDN snail was also the way to go, without exception. In this livery, painted numerals were lined EDN also, not the normal pale yellow as on grey locos. On the few locos which received black livery late on (really only about 1958 onwards, and even then probably no more than a dozen or so all over the country), snails were again lined EDN, with cabside numerals light yellow - in other words, the same markings as a grey loco. When 461 was first outshopped at Whitehead about 1990, it was painted black by the RPSI. It carried a yellow "snail" for a while on the tender, though this was soon painted out. The black livery was inaccurate; simply the preference of the volunteers who then worked on her. The yellow snail was entirely inaccurate for this, or any other loco. For the record, the painting over of this was again, nothing more than local preference of the people who worked on her at that time - no other significance. Just as the owner of a layout is completely at liberty to paint a model of 800 pink, a preservationist who has put long hours into restoring something is the man with the paintbrush! As long as an inaccurate livery doesn't go into the history books as something the vehicle actually carried (like the GNR goods van "Ivan"'s zebra stripes of black ironwork at Whitehead) then, that's fine - if accuracy is wanted, it can always be repainted. This columnist seeks to record accuracy, where available information can definitively confirm this - not under any circumstances to criticise anyone's modelling or preservation work. Incidentally, the CIE "H" van and the NCC goods brake van at Downpatrick, the explosives van in Cultra, and in fact, every preserved item of goods stock I can think of - are very inaccurately painted! The single "Woolwich" which was repainted for the "Rosslare Express" had, of course, the standard EDN lined snail, but I am not sure whether the cabside numeral on it was light yellow - there's a possibility that, as a one-off, it might have been lined EDN, as on a green loco, as well. This loco carried red lining - again, a one-off - as if it had been a GSWR loco. I've never been able to establish that beyond doubt. Carriages In the pre-1955 darker (Brunswick Green) livery, numerals, snails and lining were EDN, lined in gold in all cases. After 1950, railcars had the dark green first, and eventually the lighter green, in each case lined like 3223 at Downpatrick; i.e. a single mid-body (and thinner) line, snail and numerals; all three being now UNlined in gold. After the green got lighter in 1955, the same EDN was used for lining, numerals and snails. Post 1955, those carriages that were newly outshopped unpainted (i.e. the short-lived silver "livery" - which due to entire lack of paint wasn't actually a "livery" at all!), soon attained the lighter green; by 1957 new builds were beginning to have the lighter green. This, today, is accurately reproduced on the RPSI Dublin "Heritage" set, and on the DCDR, on C231, the TPO, and G611. Snails, lining and numerals on this lighter green were always, without exception, unlined EDN. Goods Stock Snails were always white, unlined, and latterly (probably post 1955/6?) applied to goods vehicles by stencil. White was never used on carriages or locos. I hope this clarifies things. A few other items relating to 1950s CIE liveries, while we're here - these are based on observations over the years of preservation and modelling examples: - when modelling goods vans, roofs always body colour, not black; when modelling vans painted post-1969 bauxite brown, always a brown roof, not grey. - when modelling goods stock, chassis almost never black; always, again, body colour, with a very few exceptions. NCC / UTA "Brown Vans" are one such; for them, always black chassis. GNR passenger four-wheel parcel vans were also painted like passenger vehicles, with brown body sides, black chassis and light grey roofs. - CIE coaches tended to always have black roofs, though I've seen at least one photo which shows a coach which could be either badly faded black, but possibly a dark grey. UTA coaches had roofs of a somewhat lighter grey, not unlike that on goods wagons. - In the darker and lighter CIE green liveries, coach ends were black. - When CIE / GSR locos were plain grey, this not only extended to wheels, all motion, cab roof, smokebox and even chimney, but also to the background on the numberplate. The numerals and rims were picked out in very pale yellow, cream, or smoothed to bare metal as on Whitehead's 186. They have been recorded somewhere in recent years as being red - this is incorrect. They had red backgrounds in earlier GSWR days, but not after the plain grey livery appeared about 1915. That'll do for tonight! *EDN = "Eau-de-nil"; a long-winded and faintly preposterous name for a very pale green! (Eau-de-nil..... "water of nothing".... Eh??? )

Are these things broad or narrow gauge, steam or diesel?

Times like this, I wish Senior was about; he could have given us chapter and verse on that six months ago! Wouldn't "Sir William" be a fine candidate for preservation, and a 400 class 4.6.0!

Wow!!!!! Top notch!

All models should be priced at sixteen shillings and thruppence three-farthings.

I'll delve, junctionmad, next time I'm in there.

That's pure laziness.... a retailer who can't be bothered to price things in the customer's currency can't be too eager to do business....!

Junctionmad, I am sure you checked out the Jimmy O'Dea collection in the National Photographic Archive, and the IRRS?

jhb171 senior went over to England for 2 or 3 years in the forties, working in the LMS Blackburn Division as civil engineer. He saw many "Black 5" class locomotives, which were straight out of their Bachmann boxes, and always called them the "new engines"....

Absolutely superb!

Mayner's points there are spot on. Whether we like it or not - and, doubtless, none of us do - while the abandonment of the railway in its entirety in the morning would certainly cause difficulties, these would be nowhere near as much as they would have been seventy years ago, when such a thing would have paralysed the country entirely. Politicians, the travelling public, and railway staff and their unions, as well as railway management, would all do well to be aware of that.

Long time since I sawed a baseboard, but I used to do so outdoors for the reasons of dust, no matter what stuff I was using....

Sure what are credit cards for, Railer!

Very nice models indeed! There are two prototypical GNR bogie ones at Whitehead, in various states of advanced distress. As you obviously know, they were always standard GNR grey with simply the word "GUINNESS" added. They were used for carrying grain and had hatches on the roofs.

That's correct, minister. Generally, where the few non-grey liveries did exist, they were all made grey after the GSR came into being; it seems the GSR had an even greater liking for grey than even contemporary IE! Certainly, for most of the 121-class era, anything four wheeled was grey entirely until about 1970, when the current brown (albeit with a slightly less reddish tint) began to appear. By the end of four wheel traffic, probably 60% of the fleet was brown! including allow bogie flats - these were never grey.

So few were any of the real ones (and thanks for clarifying actual existence of Murphy), that a layout attempting authenticity is probably better off without. The "Guinness" wagons as shown in the book, and also similar were shed by the GNR to carry grain, were in coming grey with company markings; just the word "Guinness" added.

Private owner wagons were exceptionally rare in Ireland. Unless I'm mistaken, the Kilkenny and Murphy ones are fictitious; I've never seen a photo of eitherf. The East Downshire Company had coal trucks on the Belfast and Co Down Railway, but there weren't many others. Instead, the railways would build wagons for private traffic, but they would almost always be in railway company livery. The biggest thing on model Irish wagons to be aware of, probably, is that bought wagons all seem, without exception, to have black chassis as if they were passenger vehicles. Very few Irish wagons had black chassis (NCC "brown vans" were one exception, as they generally ran in passenger trains). Prior to 1925, body (and matching chassis) colours varied from a very dark grey (almost black) as on the GSWR, to various shades of grey. Grey was universal among all companies 1925 - mid 1950s. At that stage, the GNR used brown on some stock, though most was grey; the UTA used brown on some in the 60s, and CIE started using brown in the 70s. Brown became the universal CIE colour after the elimination of loose-coupled goods stock in 1975 after cattle traffic ended. In the era when a 121 would have run (60's - 2010's) four wheeled wagons would have been all grey, and no private owner wagons like Murphy or Kilkenny existed at all (so just use CIE plain grey for coal traffic!). As wooden four wheel opens were phased out in the late 60s, very few ever wore brown; they were taken over by Bullied steel wagons instead. These had unpainted steel bodies - a throwback to the unpainted silver "livery" of the 50s. Initially, chassis were the same, though in the 80s a few had brown chassis. Once doubled in height, at the end of the beet era, these were all brown.

Hurricane Mk 1 - yes, I did indeed make representations, let us say, to the relevant areas within IE. Junctionmad - the later branch lines were certainly not built with speed in mind - but the main surviving routes are the original ones from way before that, which were very well engineered. There is no reason, given the right economics, politics and demand, timetabling and organisation; in other words, hypothetically, why (say) Dublin - Cork, Dublin - Galway and Dublin - Belfast should not be high speed. Other comments relate to competition with the car; this is quite correct. For thew railway to compete with road times, the investment needed would be of TGV proportions. If ever the Irish population rises to 20 million, and oil reserves twice that of Saudi are found in Co. Tipperary, that's a possibility; not otherwise.

Irish railways, being broader gauge, and originally extremely well engineered, are built, as such, very much as suitable for high speed as British ones. Lack of high speed is largely due to (a) lack of money and (b) management's perception that the public will settle for lower speeds.

Right across the network, there's another issue - the extreme heat inside ICR and also Mk 4 carriages. The air is stale, the toilets stink, because no fresh air gets in. Why can't the heat be turned down inside them? Typically (and I'm a very regular traveller on Cork, Tralee and Galway services), the inside temperatures must be over 25 degrees at least.

The Croom branch (Charleville - Patrickswell) also closed in 1967; by which stage it just carried the night-time Cork - Limerick goods, having lost its passenger service in 1934. The Thurles-Clonmel line also succumbed then. In 1975, the last ever cattle trains ran, Loughrea to Cabra. On 3rd November that year, the Loughrea line was closed, and with it the last mixed trains in Ireland. On the same date the Burma Road and the Ardee branch closed. In 1967 - I'm nearly sure that's the date - the last GNR (brown) liveried coach in service - was repainted black'n'tan. It had survived the GNR navy-and-cream period and also CIE green. The "flying snail" was replaced by the "roundel" in 1963. Early examples of buses in red / cream or navy / cream still, had snails for a very, very short time. No snails ever appeared on blank and tan railway stock, nor roundels on green.

It might be added that while CIE was formed in 1945 by amalgamation of the GSR, DUTC and the Grand Canal Company, it was initially a private company and was actually nationalised as a state body in 1950. The GNR diesel No. 800 (as opposed to 801), was, I think, lent to CIE for trials but would have remained in GNR ownership (and navy livery) until the dissolution of the GNR in 1958. Very interesting post, by the way - well done!

G601 class and narrow gauge F class - three each, rather than five.