jhb171achill

Puts me in mind of a pint of Guinness. See yeh in the Golden Ball tonight.....

Oil conversions were greeted with mixed views among the engineering bods in Inchicore. Had steam continued, I dare say they would have continued with experiments in the oil burning world. With oil and coal being both imported into Ireland, the price of each would have had a major bearing on this. I mentioned that 800 etc would have been in main line service until maybe 2000. I'm quite sure that depending on funding for new steam engines in, say, the 1990s, they might have lasted longer in front-line service. However, they'd likely have eked out their days on whatever freight was on offer. They'd probably still be about today. As we all know, it was by no means uncommon for steam locomotives to see out a century and more in working order - all over the world and throughout the steam era.

Having said that, what was a "good" area in the mid nineteenth century when most railways were built, and where the "bad" areas then were, is often very different from the way things are today. High class and fashionable rich merchant's town houses in Georgian times became the most awful tenements a hundred years later. Some "bad" areas have had old substandard housing cleared away and smart new developments built there instead.

1. In 1947, the NCC carried out a survey of the Ballycastle line with a view to converting it to 5' 3". Unsurprisingly, the conclusion was that it would be too expensive for the traffic on offer. The UTA would gave closed it a few years later in any case. 2. In the early 60s, the UTA investigated building a direct curve if the Belfast Central into Great Victoria Street. This was shelved as they decided that the necessary curve would be too sharp. Thirty years later, they built it anyway! 3. During World War 2, consideration was given to quadrupling the Belfast - Lisburn line due to the possibility of very greatly increased military traffic to the American air base at Gortnagallon on the Antrim branch, some part of which at least might have had to be doubled. 4. The transatlantic port idea above had numerous manifestations. Belmullet would be the terminus, and various routes were proposed to connect it to the railway network. One traversed the north Mayo coast via Ballycastle, Co Mayo; another (which actually was the last proposed, about 1909) went direct from Ballina through Crossmolina and Bangor Erris. Thus one actually made it into a school atlas as having been built! Another, which without doubt would have been Ireland's most picturesque railway, would have left the Achill line about three mikes west of Mallaranny, struck out on a long Cahirciveen-style viaduct across Bellacragher Bay, and proceeded north via Castlehill, Ballycroy and Bangor Erris, before turning west to Belmullet. 5. When the 800 class were built, their anticipated lifespan in full front line service would gave seen them operating until about 2000! "Maedb" in black'n'tan, anyone? 6. The UTA gave consideration to painting ALL steam locos - even narrow gauge and shunters, in a lined light apple green livery. Only "WT" No. 5 ever received this, and as an extremely short-lived experiment. 7. The NCC tested a 3ft gauge railcar on the former Ballymena & Larne line. It had been built as a one-off for export to a South American line (anyone know where it went?). Had they taken the view that it would have been suitable, it would have been a precursor to a substantial dieselisation of the B & L and Ballycastle narrow gauge lines; possibly the Victoria Road - Strabane line too.

Can you fit a layout into a typical Doghouse, along with a sofa and a beer fridge?

The Kerry road is likewise not a great one for high speeds! I can't stand the 29's.....

Can the moderators ban wives and girlfriends from seeing IRM? .... :-)

Indeed they did, Nelson, on the "Enterprise". I have a colour slide somewhere of the CIE set about 1963, consisting of a brand newv 141 - straight out of the box and not even weathered yet - hauling a train of mixed laminates and ex-GNR stock, mostly still green but one or two in black'n'tan. There would have been a few green coaches still about until maybe 1965 / 6. Obviously, like any livery change, it was gradual, though CIE tended to look after coaches very well and therefore they were all repainted every 2-3 years.

Doubtless one of the attendees might post a few pics up?

Update; the probable modus operandi on the day will have steam (No. 1) on the 1400, 1445, 1530 and 1615 departures, and the 1700 will have either A39 (requested) or 146 in charge. This could change, so it can't be seen as a deal-breaker, as it were, but that's the plan. So we'd probably leave Dublin mid or late morning, and on arrival via a lunch stop rendezvous, we can do our photography, measuring or travelling by steam first, as well as tours of loco shed, signal cabin and carriage gallery, finishing with cab rides on the A, hopefully. With (now) 14 of us, it won't be possible to accommodate all in the cab, but we will see what we can do. Nearer the time, or following updates from DCDR's Operations Officer, I'll post updates.

On the basis of many posts above, railway modelling is by no means anywhere near the top financial league table of hobbies! Which is good news.....

Is it meant to be Irish? I don't recognise it as anything Irish....

...... and - if you're a member of a high-end golf club, or you own a horse, or you play with model radio-controlled aircraft, your hobby will cost you thousands annually......

Thanks, Weshty! Indeed, Minister (I almost said "Yes Minister"!), there were variations like that. In all cases where one livery supercedes another, such will be the case. Black'n'tan locos persisted into the early 80s, eight years after any were thus painted. In the late 40s, many GSR maroon coaches were to be seen among gleaming new CIE paint. For a few years after 1925 there would have been a few - albeit a rapidly decreasing few - ex-MGWR locos in green, DSER in lined black, and CBSCR in olive green. One C & L 4.4.0T (No. 1) still wore badly faded green in 1932. One MGWR goods 0.6.0 ("Luna") was still green in 1930, having been the last thus painted in Broadstone about 1924. There was a very antique former passenger brake van still kicking about in Inchicore into the late 50s still in very badly faded and weathered GSWR deep purple lake. There are even colour pictures of it. jhbSenior recalled coaches in his daily commute in the 1920s on the Harcourt street line. Most were GSR maroon, but often one in then-lighter DSER maroon would show up. As a mere stripling, I recall nagging at my aunt to take me into town on a green bus instead of a navy and cream one.... green and flying snails were still about, but CIE navy and cream had become the norm. Just a few years later, the same in the north - green UTA buses were still about, but new Ulsterbus blue and cream was now the main show in town.

Looks like standard GSR / CIE livery, Mayner!!! :-)

Should have added - no GSR or CIE narrow gauge locomotives ever carried anything other than all over grey.

I meant to do this a long time ago. Occasionally, black is seen as an alternative colour for CIE steam locomotives, and most will be aware that indeed, a few did carry green and black in the later times. So, for clarity: 1. Everything was all grey from GSR Day 1 until 1947, except for Albert Quay's ex-Bandon distillery 299, which was never repainted from its original green, and the three 800 class. The all-grey even existed long before GSR days; on the GSWR it had been introduced as early as 1915. jhb171Senior recalled that this was most probably due to economy, but as well as that, during the Great War it was not possible to get ready supplies of any colour of paint you wanted. And with Inchicore working full out, luxuries such as allocating men to do lining and so on would have been harder than before. 2. After 1947, MOST remained all grey right until the end of steam. But there exceptions to every rule, thus: 3. From 1947 to about 1953, the following engines were painted lined green, as currently carried by 800 (461's is not the correct shade): (a) All 4.6.0 - the 400, 500 & 800 classes. Though 802 carried a lighter shade as an experiment for about 18 months from 1952 - this was like a dark apple green. (b) The "Woolwich" 2.6.0's. © Dublin suburban tank engines. This explains why one "Bandon Tank" received green, but the others didn't; one was then allocated to DSER suburban services. Four other locos, each a single example in their class, received it: D14 (or "60" class) No. 61 - must have been a sight for sore eyes!!!, D4 No. 336, D12 No. 305 and B4 No. 467. In all cases, lining was black and white. "Snails" were gold-lined light green (or "eau-de-nil"); this was a very pale green with a slight yellowish tint, but NOT yellow! Numerals were the same colour, always painted except for the 800 class. These retained the blue background to number and name plates initially, and 800 did until the end - however, 801 and 802 had their name and numberplates changed to a red background about 1951-ish. 4. The Black livery. This one's a bit like the "modeller's disease" of common misconception that if Hornby make model wagons of all types in all liveries, but always, always, have black chassis, so must it be in real life. Carriages always had black chassis, but wagons almost always had body-colour chassis. Similarly, with locomotives; if it has a smokebox, this must be black. Usually, yes, but not with GSR and CIE grey livery, where it's ALL grey! This is not without precedent. In pre-first world war France and Prussia, there were numerous types of locomotives with smokeboxes the same as body colour... So to CIE black. Again, the dark grey shown in photos is often assumed to be black, especially if weathered or when the lighting was poor when the photo was taken. When dirty it could look like faded black. In fact, very few CIE locos were ever painted black at all, but some were, as follows; all being thus treated post-1953, before which there was no black at all. (a) "K1" class "Woolwich" No. 384 was painted glossy black about 1955 for working the "Rosslare Express". Uniquely, it had red lining too - an Inchicore throwback of GSWR influence. Despite being applied to a Midland locomotive! The red lining was accompanied by the standard "eau-de-nil" snail on the tender, and painted cabside numerals in this colour too, as opposed to the light yellow used on grey locos, but similar to the "eau" used on green locos - if all that makes any sense. (b) Locos of several other classes were painted black, usually as individual examples. J30 No. 90 was repainted as late as about 1957 in what colour slides suggest was black, for example. Both of these were done in Cork, where other variations occurred as described later. A few Midland locos received black - at least one G2 2.4.0 is believed to have appeared thus. © Three locos - Cork variations as alluded to above - appeared in a unique and quite attractive livery at the very end of steam, only being repainted thus about 1960. This consisted of the standard all-over grey, but with black smokeboxes and chimneys; therefore only appropriate to a Cork-area layout. These were J15 No. 193, ex-Midland J18 No. 593, and "Bandon Tank" B4 No. 464. An important detail here, which should be of interest to anyone modelling steam in the 26 counties at any time post 1925. Under the GSR, no logos or lettering was carried on loco sides or tenders, with the exception of one Cavan and Leitrim tank, which carried small white "G S" on tank sides for a very short time! Numberplates were either completely painted over grey, or had the rims and lettering picked out in cream, retaining grey backgrounds. Occasionally, the rims and letters were polished, like 186, but this was unusual. Once into CIE times, this pattern remained initially, but before long tenders (never tank sides) received "flying snails" in eau-de-nil, never yellow as often seen now. It's an understandable error, as cabside numerals were yellow! But the "snails" were always eau-de-nil - they were standard transfers, as also used on carriages, and were thus also lined in gold. CIE began to remove numberplates from most locos, though, for example J26 No. 560 retained its plates until 1963. Once removed, unlined pale yellow cabside numerals were painted on. So - for a GSR era layout - very easy! Unless ther's an 800 on it, everything's grey, no logos. For CIE, green locos as 800 in Cultra (without the incorrect "G S" added by Cultra! - but with a lined "snail" instead). The rest, all over grey, with lined eau-de-nil snails on tenders, and pale yellow cabside numerals. I hope all that makes some sort of sense!

So would I, Dive! That's two on the list.....!

A friend of mine is heavily into gardening, and recently spent just over €4500 on two ornamental trees and some plants and shrubs. He's got the money (or at least he had!). I try to limit garden expense to a pack of border plants, two for the price of one in a sale in Woodies, maybe €10. In answer to a question of how much a layout costs, the easiest way is to make a list of all you would think appropriate for your own plans, and cost it by looking at model railway shops' websites. As people's financial abilities vary widely, so does the space available for a layout. If you've little money and little space, you'll have a very different layout to someone with a giant converted attic and mega-millions. You could also have loads of money and space, but not be personally prepared to spend more than a very modest amount. A friend of mine has a very small basic layout, some of which is second hand stock, though if he wanted he could afford the best money can buy. It's like "how long is a piece of string", really.

It's in DART colours. The airborne one, that is.

Gentlemen We're gathering in number. We now have two cars leaving Dublin, with 9 members from Dublin area (two driving including me). In the North, we have four members, two from Belfast area-ish having kindly offered to drive. There are now 13 of us altogether. It will make for a fantastic day out. One of our number has requested A39 haulage. It will be a timetabled working day, but subject to availability of the loco I hope to be able to arrange that for either the 1400 or 1700 trains. Once it's nearer the time, we can finalise preferences by consensus as to whether we prefer to leave earlier, use the 1400 for diesel haulage, and get home earlier. or later all round using the "A" on the 1700.

The blue was originally introduced specifically for the "Tourist train" but the stock used on this overlapped with the Limited Mail. In particular, the MGWR's one-time only dining car (No. 1!) took its part with both. So it made sense to paint extra stock in blue and white. It looked extremely well, but the blue faded and the white got filthy, so it was very unpopular with staff and was rightly considered to be impractical. You might as well dress loco crew in white ballet dresses! For just 2 or 3 years, most or all main line stock was painted blue and white, but apart from six wheelers specifically used on the Mail or Tourist trains, other six wheelers 9which made up the overwhelming majority of MGWR stock) remained brown with gold lining. By 1915, they'd had enough of trying to keep the new livery clean and reverted to brown straight away. By this stage, I would estimate that barely 10% of the overall fleet was blue and white. After 1915, however, the "austerity" we all now know and love had kicked in, so the brown tended to be lined with pale yellow instead of gold. In 1918, the MGWR abandoned brown finally, after having had it continually since the 1840s. A new livery of a very deep maroon was brought in, and all stock painted between then and 1925, when the GSR took over, was done in maroon. Lining was gold and lettering and coats of arms were in the same positions and styles on all three liveries. Given the size of the MGWR fleet, and the fact that money was tight, the brown livery ended up surviving on a great many vehicles until GSR times. Regarding locomotives, most remained green throughout. The blue was only applied to some members of the classes allocated to the Tourist Train and other prime trains. The cigarette card version is incorrect, as cigarette cards frequently are. The blue should be much darker, and the lining was black and white, not what looks on the card like blue and gold; carriages in this livery were lined in gold.

I remember main line footplate runs in 141s and 121s in the 70s and 80s. At speed on the main line they'd shake the teeth out of your head!

Yes, they were all completely orange at first. Dirt often made them look black, as also on locomotives.

That's interesting re 2128. Almost certainly built originally on an earlier GSR (Bredin era) chassis.