jhb171achill

Interesting detail on those two pics above. The PO van has irregular spacing of the roof beading lines, and the 2nd-last-from-right window on the "tin van" has been blocked out, obviously as a result of an entire new panel being put in. More scope for variety of models! My recollections of mail trains was that you'd never get a train of four wheelers - one or two in a train of mostly bogies was more the norm. Those tin vans were, of course, on all sorts of passenger trains, including the "Enterprise" at one stage. I can remember seeing a tin van at each end of a train speeding towards Belfast headed by a 141. And the newspaper train ensured that they were no strangers to the old Portadown station.

I should have added re GSWR carriage-portion-livery, that the livery used by the company for coaching vehicles seems to have been fairly consistent in contrast. The purple lake colour seems to have been used from early days on, probably with gold lining, but about 1900 they seem to have started using a brown and cream or purple lake and cream scheme, which was applied to the "Rosslare Express" and other main line trains, but not humble branch line six wheelers and stuff like that. My dad remembers seeing an old passenger van in Inchicore in the late 1920s which as he described it was "a sort of brown and creamy colour - very faded". There is much evidence to suggest that the GSR used remaining stock of the same dark paint immediately post amalgamation, but obviously with new GSR markings. This, described as a "very dark maroon" applied to everything until the mid 30s. Again, best example to see now is GSWR 836 at Downpatrick.

Ah! Garfield, I defer to your techy knowledge.....

For those who have asked, I now have details re the above which I hope may be of help to all. The GSR used a grey for all wagons which was described as being the same as LMS wagon grey - which can be bought readily (is Humbrol still on the go?). Wagons were painted grey all over, with the only bits picked out in black being buffers and couplings. The large "G S" and numerals on the sides were a light cream colour, though this tended to darken a bit after a while in use. Wagon roofs and chassis were in the body colour, not black - a very common error on models because bought model wagons are inevitably of BR & constituent companies across the water, where black chassis sem to have been the norm - unless, that is, Hornby perpetuated an error years ago! I suppose this is why, to me, livery information is crucial. Some might see it as the stuff of bean counters or rivet counters, and if one's main interest in a layout is the operational side, so be it - no one type of interest is more or less valid than another. But the first thing anyone ever knows about anything in the world is what it LOOKS like - and livery plays 50% of this part, outline dimensions being the other 50%. Hence my interest in liveries! I was taking an interest in the world outside when CIE's green and snails were giving way to broken wheels, red and cream buses, navy and cream buses, black and silver lorries and black'n'tan trains, and the UTA's green buses were becoming blue and cream Ulsterbuses, while their trains were also changing livery. UTA green, GNR brown carriages, UTA blue and cream and early NIR maroon and grey were all floating about in my head, instead of French vocabulary, equations, and chemical formulae.. Once CIE took over, variations started to appear. Photos taken in the 50s show flying snails adorning what was still clearly this mid-grey as opposed to the much lighter shade used from the mid 60s onwards). The familiar "broken wheel" started to appear from 1963, but wagons were still to be seen with "snails" as late as 1978 - when I photographed one in a train at Ballina. At some stage about 1959 / 60, the lighter grey (similar to that on 121 class locos at first) began to appear, mostly if not entirely on newly built standard "H" vans. I never saw an older wooden framed wagon in light grey. In the mid 60s, fitted wagons were painted brown - a theme copied, I believe, from British Rail, but it doesn't seem to have been absolute as I occasionally saw a brown wagon which was not fitted - perhaps some wagons received or had removed the relevant pipes, but were not repainted. Older wagons tended to retain the darker grey. The corrugated-sided Bullied open wagons had all but replaced wooden bodied opens by the early 70s, but I do recall seeing a single one of these wooden wagons in brown, but it was not fitted - that was unusual, as these wagons were inevitably the slightly darker grey of pre 1960. The corrugated-sided ones went on to carry little other than beet in later years. They were always a silvery grey which could have been as a result of having been unpainted, or possibly they were galvanized. The chassis of these occasionally had brown daubs of paint with the number painted on, or maintenance dates - just like other wagons. By the mid 1970s, most goods trains were made up of "H" vans which I would guess were about 60% brown, 40% light grey. Every rule has exceptions. In steam days the railways were a much dirtier environment, and paint was more expensive than now, so lowly goods wagons tended not to receive the cosmetic care and attention lavished (usually) on locos and passenger stock. Thus, wagons could frequently appear with just a few newly replaced planks repainted in new paint, with the rest not repainted - maybe a wagon with newly painted doors, but not the rest. In later days unpainted planks would sometimes appear 9more so on the UTA in the 60s, though). The dirt, brake dust, coal smoke and soot mean that wagons were in, well, fifty shades of grey!! Special vehicles are well known and gave been commented on here by others - blue Tara waons, white and dark green Anhydrous Ammonia bogie tankers, and silver and red Asahi wagons. The most common exceptions, perhaps, for many modellers would be the cement "bubbles". These started life in the standard CIE grey, with black lettering and tan-coloured "wheel" surround to the black "CIE" lettering on the logo. From the early 70s they were repainted orange, with grey or black chassis and black lettering. The "bubbles" tended to be regularly cleaned in these times, not covered in a layer of cement as in later days. The next stage was a cream colour with "Irish Cement" logo, which they technically ended their days in, though they were so dirty it was impossible to tell what colour many were painted; they were just coated in cement dust. Narrow gauge vehicles (West Clare, T & D, C & L) were all painted the older darker grey, though with even less frequent visits to paint chops, the fifty shades were more like 150 shades. Modellers of this type of thing could really get away with anything - the one common denominator being very heavy brake dust and paint-faded weathering! Sometimes wagons were intended for use on passenger trains, and would be painted in a matching livery. A handful of "H" vans (maybe only 1 or 2 for some special reason?) were standard dark passenger green, but with wagon-style "snail" markings and the usual stencilled numerals in white. I have seen but two pictures of these - one had the green down to the chassis, and a black chassis like a passenger vehicle, but green ironwork on the body. The other looks as if the whole chassis was green. The West Clare section had four small 4-wheeled vans for use on passenger trains - these had a green body and black chassis. Elsewhere, wagons in grey era, including the 1960s lighter version, and the brown seen everywhere since, never had black chassis or ironwork - this is a common error in models due to whatg appears to be the standard use of black chassis on BR-based models, which most of us start with! The only exceptions to that anywhere in Ireland that I am aware of, are NCC brown vans in certain liveries (can't speak for original state) and some one-offs or oddball PW vehicles. Talking of PW stock, all companies used standard grey or black for spray train equipment, breakdown trains and what are now known as maintenance-of-way stuff. Imported tamping and lining machines were yellow from the start, a that's how they were made by the likes of Plasser & Theurer, but it is only in recent years that ballast vans and sundry wagons, spray train carriages, etc, have become yellow. A spray train modelled pre-1980 anyway would be grey. I seem to recall the ex-GNR breakdown crane in red, though this was almost certainly a UTA job. The GNR, like CIE and the GSR, would have painted them grey all over. All this grey - sounds dull, doesn't it? But look at old colour photos; dull in colour terms, but if I may suggest, a lot more interesting than today. Going back into history, the MGWR painted wagons grey, as did the GNR, but the GSWR painted them black at one stage, and as I think I might have mentioned somewhere else, a very dark grey which I can verify off a large scale model I have which was made in Inchicore about 1905. The BCDR and NCC were early entrants into the world of grey for loose coupled, bauxite brown for fitted. Finally, as befits the last wagon on every goods train, is the humble guard's van. These followed the practice of other wagons on whatever railway they were on - i.e. inevitably all over grey. CIE started painting the guard's ducket with black and yellow stripes from the mid 60s, and once a van was repainted brown (as all survivors were by mid 70s-ish), it retained the yellow and black striping. Regrettably, the three best preserved guard's vans are inaccurate livery-wise; the CIE one in the UFTM at Cultra has black and white stripes on the ducket, and incorrect style of numerals, and the (EXCELLENTLY restored) GNR van at Whitehead has cream inside the balconies 9should be grey), black ironwork* and black lower body. (* Re. exceptions to rules: NIR painted ironwork black on one or two guard's vans and ballast opens in the 70s!). The third van, the former NCC one at Downpatrick, is in NIR light grey like this, but with UTA markings. I should add that in terms of liveries, the colour scheme of the CIE van at Cultra is by noe means the only livery inaccuracy there. It's best to check elsewhere if modelling something in there! Though, as one of their own folk very correctly said one time, it's better to have something painted bright pink and tartan, than not have it at all! I'd better go and do my shopping now......

I meant to say, explain what a "sticky" is (not a stick!!)...

Alan / Garfield Excuse my techno ignorance, but explain what a "stick" is and I'll gladly attempt it! :-) For a company the size of the GSWR, there is a surprising lack of detail about liveries they used. As far as can be ascertained, and I have more detailed notes about this SOMEWHERE, their locos were the colour of No. 36 prior to 1870. As far as I recall from notes I have, this was applied to all locos, goods and all. After about 1870 or so, they started painting them all in the livery seen on No. 90 at Downpatrick, which itself was taken from a large scale model on display in London at the HQ of the Institute of Mechanical Engineers. This is a dark olive green (likely to be the same used by the CBSCR) with red, black and light green lining and black background to the numberplates. There is one inaccuracy on 90, which is a maroon edged running plate instead of brown. I have to hang my head and take sole blame for that myself, as I gave incomplete information to those painting it!! It seems that about 1885/90, the lining changed to black and cream, but base colour was the same. From 1895 onwards, the GSWR painted all locos glossy black with red lining, though it is probable that quite a few were still kicking about in green for some time. In my grandfather's day in Inchicore, the famous battleship grey appeared, as an economy measure. It was probably the same as what wagons were painted, or close, as the GSWR painted wagons a colour which was variously described as black or dark grey. More of that later; I'm preparing a lengthy post on wagon liveries for here - maybe get it done later today. I have a large scale model wagon made by my grandfather when he was in Inchicore and it has the actual paint. I'll try to post a pic of it some time, and it will be eventually going on display in the DCDR Museum. Going back to locos, I reckon that a layout based on the GSWR any time between 1880 and 1910 could reasonably have locos of different liveries - green with both types of lining in the earlier part, and later on green on some, new black on others. What would make a very unique model would be something based on, say, some part of Tralee - Limerick - Sligo about 1930, with a few ex-GSW and ex-WLWR locos in GSWR lined black, getting a bit tatty looking, and a couple of brand new grey locos! Stretch artistic licence, and there's still one WLWR 4.4.0 in maroon... OK, now I'm rambling. Back to the point: No. 90 was indeed a type of 0-6-4T - though I believe that such an arrangement has various definitions... 0.6.0T + 4? But, yes, that's what it was in essence. Carriage portions on railmotors on all Irish companies that had them were in the standard carriage livery of the day. 90's would have been the deep reddish browny "crimson lake" to be seen today on ex-GSWR 1097 and 836 at Downpatrick. The DCDR's policy is accurate liveries (though some older stock has yet to be updated!) and the colour on these carriages is exact. Something at the back of my mind tells me it was unlined - at least for some of the time, but I'd have to check. Weshty - 90 is basically in working order but she is currently on display in the new carriage gallery (and is thus very accessible to modellers). She needs a few minor adjustments though, and is out of her boiler ticket. The work programme for the coming year as far as steam locos are concerned is geared towards O & K No. 3, so that both O & K's will be in traffic. 90 will be next. Now I'll get a cuppa and do the bit about CIE wagon liveries...

Wow! I love the 121 as well....

On the other side they had no windows at all, just the door at the end (left hand side, looking at it broadside). They were the same loading gauge dimensions as standard CIE template of the day. The only vans of any sort that have been narrower are the "BR" vans, as a result of having been built to BR loading gauge. At least one or two of these 4w PO vans was latterly converted to a brake / genny van. One was still kicking about Heuston / Inchicore until within the last few years, converted for use in the spray train. I would imagine that it is scrapped now.

Excellent stuff - the filthy and vandalised 141 looks SO realistic! (Sad to have to say!) .. I'd check the house from top to bottom for that grifter character..... :-)

Mr Claus can be very accommodating - even on New Year's Day.... :-)

I stand corrected, garfield; my famiiliarity with them has been entirely on this side of the water! :-) Incidentally, the one at Downpatrick, 3189, shows old Southern Region green paint under its black'n'tan.

Deepest sympathies, anthony, to you and your family.

In steam days, Patrick, probably. I don't think it applied to diesel days. The few phots I have seen of this area post-1955 show the likes ofn a dirty looking A class struggling along - and indeed one with a J15 steam engine on its own, albeit with a light load. But for a model - anything's possible.

It's the Multyfarnham to Iceland all-stopper.

I wonder if the IRRS might loan its premises?

Totally right, Josefstadt. G class locos never pulled Cravens. Very occasionally, excursions ran into or out of Loughrea hauled by a main line loco which may have included the odd Craven, though personally I've never seen any pic of any Craven coach even in such a formation. Had a Craven run with a "G", it would have had to have had a genny van. In summer when heating or lighting mighn't have been needed, both 4 and 6 wheel genny vans, or Dutch or BR vans, simply fulfilled the role of guards or parcel vans. BR vans, before conversion, were standard British Rail Mk 1 full passenger brakes, like any Hornby model based on a UK prototype.

Gareth - they did look superb when brand new in blue! Talk of wagon colours prompted me to also remember the Asahi tanks - has anyone modelled them? The flat wagons were silver all over, and the tanks on them were silver with the rectangular frames in bright red. They also looked very striking.

I would echo all comments above. It just brings memories flooding back seeing these vans. I remember one trip I did from Limerick to Ballina in the one daily train which was two laminates and one of those 4 wheeled vans - and it looked distinctly lopsided that day for some reason. For the experts here on weathering (and there are more than a few judging by pics), these vans tended to be somewhat dirtier than passenger carrying vehicles, which in CIE days were always kept very clean, as were locos. For the generation immediatly before the "tin vans", the then equivalent (behind a steam engine) was often a dilapidated old 6 wheel full brake with ducket. These could be of DSE, GSW or MGWR origin, and you'd see one tagged onto trains of even the most modern (laminate / Park Royal) stock. Tin vans, however, were also to be seen on steam trains when new (dirty / silver livery), often with an equally dilapitated old wooden bogie composite!

Not sure about length of rakes, but the colour changed at first repainting. Having said that, while blue most of them gradually got so dirty tyou could hardly tell what colour they were - just like today (but without the graffiti). I have to add that I'd happily electrocute anyone who puts graffiti on anything at all, railway or otherwise!

Excellent idea - I can visualise a dirty silver "A" and a long line of loose-coupled wagons rattleing along there... and an AEC railcar on the passenger! I had plans at one stage of a similar thing based on Newcastle West - the two lines leaving it would be a helix themselves to a train leaving for Tralee would eventually come back in from Limerick! Somewhere out on the helix would be Barnagh. Maybe I'll get a start made on it SOME day!

Probably of interest to modellers is when exactly those lines started appearing? I think the white edging on platforms long pre-dates the yellow lines, which I would (wildly) guess became widespread within the last 10-15 years?

Correct on all counts! And add to that the mud off the beet itself. Wagons were really a nondescipt dirt shade. Talk about fifty shades of grey!

Yes, that would be good and is a work in progress. The DCDR has a long-standing very good relationship with the ITG in such matters. The ITG owns (as you would know) 4 of the 7 diesels there, and a future visit of a "C" class or a "121" would certainly be do-able. Personally, I'd love to see a C there (or should that be to C a see?).

Yes, Anthony. Dunluce Castle and BCDR 30 were painted in their original liveries by the UTA under the direction of the late Harold Houston, whose knowledge of all things NCC and BCDR was encyclopaedic. They can therefore be taken as absolutely accurate - more than can be said, sadly, for many things the museum have repainted themselves. 800 was accurate in CIE green until the museum added the GSR initials on the tender - it should be a flying snail for that livery. However, 800 was painted in Inchicore before being taken north, so the green paint and lining is authentic CIE. The Donegal stock in the museum is also accurate, as it is actually the livery they were taken out of traffic in. The Castlederg coach is not at all accurate, and while the colour on the Cavan & Leitrim coach is accurate enough GSR maroon, the lettering most certainly isn't right! But, as a friend of mine who works there mentioned one time, it's better an item survives in the wrong livery, than doesn't survive at all!

Hidden Agenda, that's an officially made model by / for NIR - very accurate in al details and a must to see for anyone modelling one of these engines.