jhb171achill

Had one of them been in good working order, and its historical poor braking been sorted out, it would definitely have been welcome on the DCDR!

Good stuff, Eiretrains - thanks for the additional details.

WOWW Those are STUNNING

Part 2 After a short time, pairs of 121/141/181s were becoming commonplace, especially on main lines. Many a "pair" had a b'n't loco and a newly painted "supertrain" one - while nowadays I prefer the older b'n't myself, at the time the old livery was getting tatty, and a pair with a newly painted loco showed the new livery off to very flattering effect, as it tended to be kept immaculately clean. The "tan" became a marginally more orangey shade, which added to its attractiveness - or maybe it was its newness, and the greater area of it? By the late 70s, b'n't engines were still to be seen among the 121/141/181 classes but were very rare among As and the now re-engined C's. I don't believe I saw any black and tan A or C class locos on extensive "runabout ticket" travels in 1977/8. I am not sure when the last GM got the "supertrain" livery, but maybe someone else here might know. It can't have been beyond 1980. Meantime, shunters pottered about. The E401 class were few, but bore the silver, then the all black; some members had the "high" tan as well, which was typically applied to locos detailed to shunt Heuston carriages sidings. The E421 class were all delivered in black, but a few acquired the "low" tan for a while, though by the mid 1970s all were black and remained thus until withdrawal in the mid 80s. The D class had predated these and originally had the lined dark green livery used on those steam locos which CIE repainted from grey to green, and which can still be seen on "Maedb". Later they got the post-1955 lighter green - unlined. I suspect thus was applied about 1958as it was then that they were officially classed as "D". Prior to that, their numbers were 1000-4, not 301 upwards. They skipped silver, as they were not new when it was introduced - only new vehicles were ever silver. After repainting in black, some of these had tan, but they all wore all-black before withdrawal, with the unusual feature of the white flash on the upper ends being striped on the black surface on at least two; in other words, instead of a plain white panel between and above end window level, they had vertical white stripes. Other than the D class, the only other diesel locos to wear the lined dark green ("steam")I very were B113/4, though it is important to note that they were then numbered 1100/1, only being designated "B" class in 1958, which is probably when they received their next livery, the then-current lighter green. From about 1963' they appeared first in full black'n'tan but later all black with yellow panels on the ends. It was in this livery they ended their career. The three original (1955) G class locos (G601-3) were delivered in silver, repainted in light green some time about 1960/1, and then into plain black, which they retained to the end. At least one had the loco frames in green too, though (I stand to be corrected) the other two had black on the frames, green on the body. All three had small "snails" above the number on the cabside. These three did not have vacuum brakes and were thus never used on Loughrea passenger or mixed trains - in fact, I have no evidence of them going into Loughrea at all. The other seven, G611-7, went into traffic in black'n'tan, though there is a theory that the initial one, G611, arrived from Deutz in plain green with no markings. If so, it was certainly repainted b'n't before it turned a wheel. During the '60's, several of these locos were repainted plain black, and when they were all withdrawn not long after the Loughrea branch closed some were b'n't, some plain black. Both liveries may be seen today on G613 (b'n't) and G617 (black) at Downpatrick. G611 is there also, and carries the green livery that the G601 class had for a while, though it never ran itself like that. In addition, unlike G613 and G611 which have both been (strictly incorrectly) painted green at Downpatrick at various times, green "G" class locos never had a "flying snail", as they carried a large painted number on cab sides. All ten "G" class locos had the number painted on the cab sides and end. In common with larger diesels the numbers were small if a CIE rounded was also present, generally with the all black variation*, but when black'n'tan the larger font, as on can ends, was used. Due to the fact that the vacuum pigeon the "G611" class obscured the radiator, these seven never had a number on the front at all - the only CIE locos as far as I am aware to have no front number. The earlier three, with no vacuum pipe, had the number painted in small than usual numerals on the front above the radiatior. (* always with "G" and "E" class; usually but not always with "A" and "C") An interesting livery detail regarding the solitary ex-GNR "K" class was that with no logical place to paint the normal sized numeral in its ends, it wade only broad gauge CIE diesel to carry a number on its buffer beams, as in steam days, but with a more modern font. The three narrow gauge West Clare F class locos started and ended their short lives in the plain lighter green, but only carried a numeral. In common with the Walker railcars there they never carried lining or "snails". Like K801, they carried buffer beam numerals. And so to the Sulzers. These started in the old steam-era dark green with large numerals and snails in light "eau-de-nil" green, lined in gold, and black and white lining. They received the lighter green treatment in the mid 50s, and "high" b'n't about 1964. Later, they were painted plain black, and received the yellow ends. They did not last long enough in traffic to receive the "supertrain" livery, but might have looked quite well in it! There's one for a modeller, to sit alongside a 141 or 121 in the current black and silver 071 livery...... The "Birmingham Sulzers" as the B101s seemed to have been invariably known, had a story like some A's. They started in silver and some got the light green but none the dark green. Black with "high" tan followed, and most ended up in plain black, before later getting the "low" tan band. At least one had an odd variation: while it had full "high" tan sides, the white band was not continued along the sides. It ended its days like that: I saw it thus at Inchicore about 1979. As mentioned, the story of the C class was not unlike that of the A's. Silver, two shades or green, and black. I don't remember any in the "high" tan at the outset, though at least the rebuilt pair B233/4 had it after re-engining, but most C's were black in the sixties, a minority with yellow panels post-1968. The "transplant" era saw them emerge with "low" tan on the sides. By this stage they were all graduating towards Dublin, there being little or now work for them elsewhere, and the de-engining of the old AEC railcars gave them a new life on push-pulls in the Dublin area. I don't remember seeing a b'n't "C" on such work - all seemed to have received the "supertrain" livery by the time they started that. This "Supertrain" livery ruled the roost, therefore, on all locos bar the E class from the mid 70s until 1987, when CIE became IE, as far as the locos were concerned. The railway was not awash with money at that stage, so instead of a bright bold new livery, the locos and coaches simply received the white lines aove and below the central black band. This was referred to by some at Inchicore at the time as the "tippex treatment", but actually looked well. The CIE roundel on loco sides was replaced by the new IE "set of points" logo, though locos were to be seen with new badge, no tippex, or tippex with no badge, and in the case of one 141, CIE roundels on the ends and "sets of points" on the sides for a while. IE applied their logo to loco sides. First it was the "set of points", then later the "three pin plug" in the 1990s. In the "supertrain" era no CIE roundel was ever on the side of a loco, only the ends. If I think of more, I'll post it - if you think of questions, please ask.

PART 1 (of 2) We're all well aware of the changeover from green to black'n'tan in the early '60s. But it wasn't a case of everything being green one day, and repainted uniformly the following Monday morning! In these days of carefully managed corporate images, there is greater uniformity - and to companies who value a strong corporate branding, this is a good thing. But for an enthusiast and modeller, the 1955-75 period was one of variety, albeit beneath the blanket of the black'n'tan! I will dig out details as I get the chance of variations in different locos, for example there was at least one 121 which received a red buffer beam during the short-lived greay and yellow era for these engines. The grey and yellow was largely gone within six years or so of delivery, with the class all receiving the standard black'n'tan. G and E class locos carried both black with white bands at the top, and same with tan at the bottom. Generally, a black loco had CIE roundels on the sides, while a b'n't loco did not. On E class locos, the orange was "full height", i.e. matching the levels up to below-window-level on carriages, or thereabouts. On G class locos the tan was a strip about a foot high from platform level. Both "full height" and "lower strip" tan bands were to be seen on A and C class locos at various times; you will know what I mean if I refer to these variations as "high" and "low" tan sides. Newly delivered 141s did not have a CIE roundel below the number on the sides, though these were added with later repaints, whereas 181s had them from the outset. Some C class locos, while black, had yellow ends; on these the loco number was in black. I do not have the details of which locos had which variations and when, but I may be able to dig this out in which case I will post it. A class locomotives had a tale to be told. This was the subject of an article in the August 1969 Irish Railfan's News, the following being a summary which would be invaluable for those modelling these locomotives in a 1960s setting. There were sixty of these engines - the largest class of any Irish locomotive bar the GSWR 101s - built in 1955. They were delivered in all over silver, bogies and all, with "flying snails" and numerals in light green, and red buffer beams. This livery had extremely poor durability - probably worse than any other finish any rail vehicle has ever been in! A realistic approach to modelling this would be to look at photos of locos in this livery in traffic - they were a filthy grey in use, and the story got worse by degrees! Not surprisingly, CIE did not perpetuate this more than 5 years or so, with the lighter green as seen on the Dublin RPSI coaches taking over shortly, though not before A46 appeared in the older dark green, with light green line along the middle (as on DCDR's coach 3223 at present) in May 1958. From here, the story became complicated. Following A46's debut in dark green, A36 appeared in the then new lighter green, but without the lighter waistband. However, despite the lighter green being the new "post-silver" livery, the following emerged over the next few months in the dark green with waistband: A10, 11, 15, 24, 25, 34, 45, 51, 54, 57, 59 & 60. So by late 1959, one lloco is in light green, 13 in dark green, and the rest in varying stages of the fifty million shades of silvery grey! From 1960 the lighter version began to appear on all locomotives on a wide scale. A46 itself received this late in the year. No other loco started in dark green and was repainted light green - others went from silver to one form of green, then to black'n'tan or black. By the end of 1961 and locomotives still in silver were really in a deplorable state, in many cases the numerals being barely legible as they seemed to have tendency to wear off. In September 1961 A6 appeared in an experimental livery described at the time as "black, golden brown and white". The IRN and the IRRS journals of the day doggedly stuck to this description of the light tan, which was in reality a browny-tinted orange. The loco had "high" tan sides. During 1962/3 this livery spread, though after the first few locos were thus treated the white strip above window level became narrower - the more familiar width perpetuated right through to the 1990s on Cravens. However, in 1962 A16 appeared in traffic in newly painted silver! By 1963/4, the story was: Black'n'tan: 1-3, 5-8, 12, 14, 15, 17, 20, 22-4, 27, 31, 36, 37, 39, 40, 47, 48, 50, 52, 56 & 58. The tan was "high" level - same as on carriages. Trains thus formed had a very uniform look. Dark Green with waist level lighter green line: 10, 11, 25, 34, 45, 51, 54, 57, 59 & 60. Plain Light Green, no line; OR silver (a few; not sure which): 4, 9, 13, 16*, 18, 19, 21, 26, 28-30, 32, 33, 35, 38, 41-44, 46, 49, 53, 55. (* 1962 painted silver) As if that wasn't complicated enough, A30 appeared in plain black in early 1964, as seen nowadays on Downpatrick's A39, but with orange buffer beams. Livery detail for modellers here: apart from a few rare one-offs, the general rule is that if there is tan at all, the upper white line continues right round the body sides, whereas if the loco is otherwise all black, the white bits are ONLY on the ends. An exception was the G class: white all round the top of the cab (though black roof, of course) irrespective of whether the loco had tan or not. Also, tan locos had no "broken wheel" on the sides, whereas black ones did in later days, but (as on DCDR's A39 now, and A30 as described above) did. A49 and A55 followed suit, but no other locos were thus treated. The orange buffer beams did not last long, soon being repainted red; otherwise the black livery remained the same. By 1968 most of the class were repainted in this black livery, though the central side numeral gave way to numerals in the more familiar position on each end of the lower body side, with a "broken wheel" where the number had previously been. But A54 was still a dishevelled dark green (and temporarily out of use) and 1, 15, 22, 37, and 52 were black and "high" tan. A16 had a unique variation; having been b'n't, her sides had been painted black for her appearance in a film "Darling Lili", but her ends were b'n't... for a while! In June 1968, A52 received the rectangular yellow patch on the front that was to become a short-lived feature on a few locos on the A and C classes, and the B113/4 pair. The loco number was painted on this in black, but the livery was otherwise unchanged. However, A15 was repainted after it, in the standard all-black. By late 1969, A22, 37, 58R* and 59R* were black'n'tan. All others were black and white, with the following having received yellow ends: A4, 12, 13, 20, 24, 31, 34, 50, 52 & 55. * The "R" following the number indicated that the loco had had its original Crossley engine replaced by a GM one during the re-engining or "transplant" process. Externally no changes were evident, but on re-engined locos the tan changed to the "low" version. This involved the ends remaining the same, but the formerly mid-height tan band on the sides dropping behind the cabside doors to a band (from memory) about 1 foot or 18 inches high... photos indicate this. By the time the re-engining process was complete, in parallel with a similar process on the C class (whose livery history had been more or less an exact parallel of the above), the new "Supertrain" livery was coming into being. Below window level, it was the same, but the changes were above this. Carriages had formerly had a white line above the windows, then more black right over the roof, but now the new "a/c" (Mk 2) stock had the same tan as below windows right over the roof and no white line, giving an impression of an all-tan coach with a black band covering window level only. Numerals were on the ends instead of the sides, giving a smooth and streamlined appearance. The first locomotives to be treated with this new livery were A's, as they were now being used in a new lease of life on main expresses all over the country. Unlike coaches, locos had a number at each end of the bodyside, low down, and one on the ends, above a CIE roundel; loco ends were the only places where the CIE logo was to be seen on the "Supertrain" livery. "A"'s received tan sides, tan roofs and tan ends, with just the mid-bodyside black band, which dipped at the ends, for relief. The white lines were gone - for the time being! Initially the white numerals on the ends had orange shading if on a black background (A class) and later on with a black background when on tan, as seen on 141s once they started being repainted. I don't remember ever seeing shaded numerals on a 121; I think they were plain white from the start, as the shaded ones became with their first repaint. Numerals on the sides of locos retained their shading. (ctd)

Tonight was red wine night. Good French stuff; forgotten how good it is - been drinking Chilean and Aissue stuff - albeit of excellent quality - for years.

I think I prefer the one on the right. At least it's in the right GSR livery!

That's right Mayner - that was the prototype, and was taken there for publicity shots. The loco with orange buffer beams was applied in 1964 to A30, A49 and A55, but did not last long, red reappearing before long. I have details for the A's in one of the IRNs, but I also have stuff elsewhere which I hope will give variations on C's, E's and G's. Depends if I can find it! Anyone among you who is well-organised - you REALLY don't want to see my study.................... !!

Absolutely amazing stuff as always - very realistic - excellent

Brilliant stuff, Ciaran - I must post a thing about the variations on "A" class liveries in the '60's. There were actually numerous variations including at least two absolute one-offs.

PART 2 The 1963/4 beet season had concluded for the firtst time with no steam locomotives having been used. The harvest had not been as good as usual, so lower volumes had contributed to this. However, Thurles factory had steamed their (normally Mallow based) O & K Loco No. 3, assisted by one of their own diesel shunters. How did No. 3 get from Thurles to Mallow? Tullamore held a record for loading, with 85 four wheel wagons loaded there in a single day. There's one for modellers to emulate! Demolition of closed lines continued to make headlines. Lifting was in progress on the West Cork system, three years after closure, with lifting trains hauled by a C class loco having reached Ballineen, where the loco was being stabled overnight. A rail-borne tractor hauling a few flat wagons had started work on the Castlecomer branch at Corbetstown. The Bagenalstown-Palace East line was also being taken apart, and in Co Meath the Oldcastle branch was now lifted beyond Kells. Finally, the Mountmellick, Birr and Newmarket branches were completely lifted, with Ballylinan, Banagher and New Ross to Macmine due for attention next. Modellers dealing with this period might like to have a dirty C class loco appearing from round a corner in their terminus with a motley collection of 4 wheeled and bogie flats and open wagons loaded with old sleepers and rusty rails, lumps of vegetation possibly stuck to the sides... Power for lifting trains could be a rail tractor, a cut-down railcar, a steam engine or a diesel engine, the latter inevitably a "C". The West Cork was lifted partly by "C"s and partly by one of the Bandon tanks. Oil lamps started to be replaced by new electric lamps, bought from Germany, and made of "unbreakable plastic". Following trials from late 1962, it was now decided to unveil a new corporate image livery; the "black'n'tan" era had arrived. Readers will be well familiar with the details! The first items to enter traffic entirely in this livery had been the 7 later G(611) locos, Cravens, and 141 class locos. A survey of goods traffic found that in terms of tons per annum, the following statistics applied; Over 500,000 tons per annum: Dublin-Kildare 400k - 500k: Dublin -Drogheda, Kildare-Limerick Jct and Mallow-Cork 300k - 400k: Drogheda-UTA land, Dublin-Mullingar, Kildare-Carlow, LJ-Mallow and LJ-Ennis 200k - 300k: Mullingar-Galway, Mullingar-Sligo, Mallow-Tralee and Athenry-Ennis 100k - 200k: Portarlington-Westport & Ballina, Athenry-Collooney, Carlow-Waterford, Dublin-Rosslare-LJ, (interestingly) the Cork-Limerick goods via the Croom branch, and the Nenagh branch, the Castleisland branch Under 100,000 tons per year: Branches to Kingscourt, Ardee, New Ross, Youghal, Cobh, Mallow-Waterford, Tralee-Limerick, Foynes, Loughrea, Thurles-Clonmel and Westport Quay. From September 1963 to December 23rd 1963 the ex-SLNCR railcar "B" (now renumbered 2509) operated one of the local trains on the Nenagh branch, clocking up a mere 37.5 miles a day, but two days before Christmas it broke down and was now in storage pending repair. The Stormont Government's William Craig "threatened" to close the GNR main line south of Portadown, but in the opinion of the IRN this was "for political motives"... Ex NCC "W" class 2.6.0 No. 97 had been given a larger tender formely from No. 99 for use on the "Enterprise"; 97 had been overhauled in York Road along with "Jeeps" 5 and 52. Another two "Jeeps", 3 and 53, along with ex-GNR 170 (4.4.0) and 49 (0.6.0) had gone into the shops there for overhaul. In the meantime Vs class 207 "Boyne" had her brass nameplates removed and replaced with newly made wooden ones! A large amount of old coaches including two venerable NCC dining cars were broken up. An eagle eyed spotter noted a CIE wagon in Larne on a bagged cement train serving Magheramorne cement works. This in itself wasn't unusual, but this wagon was 1211M, still with a MGWR wagon plate on the chassis. On 12.11.63 a train on the Bangor line was derailed by a fallen tree. The unusual thing about it was that it comprised a single MED car. The UTA operated two steam specials for rugby at Lansdowne Road on 7th December 1963. One had ex-NCC 97 (with larger tender as above) and nine bogies of ex-GN and NCC origin; the other had loco 58 and 8 bogies forming a strengthened "Enterprise". The introduction of the 121 and 141 class locos, and their immensely greater reliability than the "A", "B101" or "C" class locos, had now led to a drastic reduction in the location of pilot locomotives all over the country. Note to modellers: layouts prior to this date, especially based on main lines, can have a "C" or a J15 sticking out of a shed on your main station! Inchicore turned out a new dining car, No. 2403, of standard design, and it entered service on 22.2.64; one of the last passenger vehicles built from scratch at Inchicore, along with two first class coaches, nos. 1145/6. The change in coaching to all-steel construction was marked with the introduction to service at the same time of the first "Cravens". The first into traffic was numbered 1504. The first Craven coaches into traffic were included in the 18:30 to Cork on 10.4.64. The following day the same set formed the 14:25 down. Inchicore was constructing a series of cement vans for the Drogheda Cement factory branch. These were to be "finished in light grey" with the new emblem having a light brown "broken wheel" surrounding white lettering and with white numerals. The depressing reading on liftings continued into spring 1964 with the West Cork almost lifted back to Bandon, the Castlecomer line almost done, and other lines mentioned above in an advanced stage of deconstruction. Since 1963 had seen a huge cull of rural stations on the remaining network as well as fully closed branch lines, sidings were being lifted with indecent haste all over the country. Whole station yards and loops were being eliminated at places like Borris-in-Ossory, Birdhill, and most of the stations from Limerick to Sligo, as well as Foxford. There's another tip for a layout based at that time (and which I remember well) - if you looked about in most stations you'd see the marks in the ground of recently lifted tracks. Some remaining sidings were left alone, but grew weedy and rusty - these would have been for refuge of beet and cattle trains on busy days. Kingsbridge station (yet to be renamed) recieved its trademark black and white tiles - the first of several stations to be treated thus. York Road, or "Duncrue St Works" as the UTA preferred to call it, was busy. As well as a number of "Jeeps", they overhauled four ex-GNR 0.6.0s and 4.4.0s 170, 171 and 17, the latter for use on the "Derry Road". It was believed, however, that henceforth nothing but "Jeeps" would have any attention given to them. the UTA was doubtless busily forming plans to dispose of the "Derry Road" - as well as other lines - at the time. But the Warrenpoint branch was going out in style: Easter trains saw up to five steam engines in there on a single day on excursions. But on February 13th, the UTA's plans were announced - the draconian, short sighted mass closure of the Derry Road, the Warrenpoint line and all night time goods trains. All other freight bar cross-border CIE stuff wasn't to last much longer. Sometimes the old order goes on, quietly, unnoticed, in the background. As these events unfolded, the elderly ex-MGWR breakdown crane, No.2M, was overhauled at Inchicore. IRN issues often ended with notes of a specific journey undertaken by one of the several contributers and researchers. A nice account of a journey from Limerick to Ballina gives an idea of what was to be seen on the WRC at the time. B133 hauled two laminates, a 4 wheeled luggage van and an old horsebox on the previous 17th June 1963, a short time after Limerick-Sligo trains had been diverted to Ballina due to the closure to passengers of Claremorris-Collooney. Along the way another grey and yellow 121 was shunting in Ennis, and A14 was crossed with a southbound goods , and A52 with the Galway goods, at Athenry. At Claremorris B132 headed a Westport train composed of - in this order - a buffet car, two laminates, a six wheeled heating van, a four wheeled luggage van, and another laminate bringing up the rear! This rear laminate was being swopped with another for maintenance purposes. The train engine, on arrival, turned on the turntable and promptly departed with the Dublin goods - 43 four wheeled wagons and a brake van. And that was that; the summer of '64 beckoned, and a new world of less mileage, more black'n'tan, and UTA green railcars..... we grew our hair long, got told off in school, and worshipped the Rolling Stones and the Kinks....... Until next time.

PART 1 The year dawned with a Papal visit to the Holy Land, and in an Ireland with a very different view of such matters nowadays, it may come as a surprise to many that the visit prompted RTE to charter two trains from Belfast to Dublin, to bring valuable tapes of the visit to Dublin for broadcast on the evening news! The train was as strange as the reason - a three car BUT set hauled by B154 south, complete with RTE headboard. The journey took exactly 2 hours, which in itself might interest modern day railway management, health and safety officials, timetable planners, and those who agonise over calculating driver's hours.... The following day the same three car set was again hauled, this time by B172. In January 1964, despite deliveries, it was reported that the first "Craven" carriages had still not entered traffic. Inchicore, meanwhile, had started building "a series of new sixwheel heating vans to augment the present fourwheel ones". A hint therefore for modellers - no 6 wheel tin vans if you are modelling pre-64! Steam had not been used much after spring 1963, but a few locos remained in use as heating units at main stations. Steam activity had therefore dwindled to a tiny trickle. In Dublin stations, Nos. 132, 151 and 197 were in use while in Cork No. 251 was used. The Dublin locos travelled under their own steam (probably all based at Broadstone by this stage), while 251 was hauled to and from it s position by a diesel pilot loco. B1a 4.6.0 No. 800 "Maedb" remained in Inchicore and had been repainted standard CIE loco lined green in preparation for transfer to Belfast Transport Museum, following initial representations made to CIE by a UTA civil engineer who knew its significance very well! On November 20th 1963 she had been hauled to Sallins and back to ensure she was "freed up" for her jaunt north. On 21st February 800 was taken to Amiens Street where three days later she was formally handed over br CIE's general manager, Frank Lemass, to the Belfast Transport Museum. On 27th she started her journey north haled by B173 as far as Portadown. A long line of barrier wagons separated B173 from 800, on account of weight restrictions on many bridges, the Boyne Viaduct in Drogheda included. B173 had to the north side of the river before 800 went onto the viaduct. The ex-MGWR "Dargan Saloon" (always known by railway staff as "No. 47") went too. The next day "Jeep" No. 1 took the train to Adelaide where she remained until 18th April, when a ceremony of acceptance was held at Great Victoria Street station. I do not think that 800 was taken into GVS as such for the ceremony. Other locos still in CIE ownership were 5C in Ennis, J15 184, GSWR 90 in Fermoy, 36 in Cork, and 85N in Dundalk. None of these were operational. However, a number of other locomotives remained technically in stock, though unused, and in varying states of repair. Some were listed for scrapping and (technical) withdrawal (as actual withdrawal had already taken place). Some were listed to be retained for preservation or emergency use - at this stage the plan being that those to be preserved would be as static exhibits somewhere. To be retained: Amiens St: 132 151 197 Limerick Junction: 125 130 186 Thurles: 104 124 195 262 Rosslare Harbour: 461 Sutton (Tram Shed): 198 261 Waterford: 179 183 Athlone: 593 603 To be withdrawn and scrapped: Cork: 118 251 Limerick Jct: 106 164 351 Rosslare Harbour: 249 Dundalk: 255 132N 204N Mullingar: 131N* 172 599 (* To be retained untail after the IRRS / RCTS 1964 Steam Tour) Mallow: 109 116 Sligo: 574 Athlone: 159N Inchicore: 80N 111 187 463 42 and the old crane tank 365A (ex GNR 31), and the former Inchicore shunter "Sambo". What would the PC brigade call this undeniably black-hued locomotive nowadays? "Non white"? Or "Very very very very dark grey indeed"!! In Cork, the vertical boiled loco from the coaling stage "Pat" was scrapped. (ctd)

STUNNING beyond description. I love the realistic weathering. Best I've seen, and on these boards that's saying something.

I have to say i've always had a soft spot for USA diesels too! SD40's especially......

Alan - yes, there would be the odd case of that all right in the past but I never remember it as much as in later days as you say. A 1985-95 based layout could present that as an interesting possibility for realistic detail!!!!!!

And Part 2:[/b] Lets go on to sidings.. all these spare bits of track, long disappeared behind new security fences, untidy piles of spent ballast and other discarded railway rubbish, generously topped with supermarket trollies and old kid's buggies, front wheel missing. Quite a few of our main lines - more than you'd think - were double at one time. Immediately after the GSR took over, many miles of track, especially on the ex-MGWR, but also elsewhere, were singled for economy. But in through stations, a part of the former second track which had been lifted was retained, sometimes on either side of the station, for stabling cattle specials. These usually ended with a large concrete-block-like GSR design buffer stop - I am sure many are familiar with them. Often they had a lop sided aspect, due to having had one too many a rough shunt of 35 cattle trucks walloped against them. They had wooden sleepers on the face of them for the buffers to rub against, and while quite beyond me, I am sure that the reproduction of an old sleeper, half rotten, with what little red paint was left having faded to pink, with worn out rusty / oily looking circular spots where buffers had hit them, would be child's play for the skilled modellers I find myself among here. A realistic addition to a layout could very well have a long siding like this (up to a mile long!) running out parallel to the remaining single running line. the main line has new ballast, may be about 6 inches higher rail level due to more frequent and recent ballasting, with shiny topped rails, while the siding is a bit weedy (brown / dead weeds, following a weedspray visit, anyone?), with brambles springing up here and there, but not enough to make it unusable. At the very end, against the buffer stop, is a home for that wagon kit with an irreparably dodgy coupler or an axle that keeps coming out, but which you can't be bothered to fix properly! It will be badly faded grey, and have a faded flying snail on it, or a "broken wheel", possibly with a faded "G N" showing through it (if it is a van). If we are modelling the post-fitted-goods-introduction era, mid 70s to mid 80s, there could be a dozen recently withdrawn "H" vans and a few old wooden opens; the former mostly brown, the latter generally grey. Some of the brown ones would have paint peeling to show grey here and there. The brown roofs would have mildewy coverings, and generous donations by birds, if under lineside trees. many stations ended up with little used sidings of this nature full of old wagons in these times. More recently, for modelling from 1990s onwards, what few sidings are left are probably used for loading ballast and are therefore buried to rail level in the stuff from diggers loading it into wagons, and may well feature a disused cattle bank or goods platform nearby with a digger parked on it beside a mountain of ballast awaiting loading. Layouts pre 1975, say, will have cattle banks still with fencing often made out of old and rusty rails, either unpainted or painted black (with much rust weathering). Older ones, usually of the deserted variety will be of old sleepers, faded and bleached by weather and the passage of time to a greyish colour, not a "wooden" colour - look at any old farmer's fence and you'll see. Cattle banks when in use were recovered on the occasion of each use by a special type of material dispensed from cow's bottoms, thus when older / disused / derelict had a good crop of healthy looking weeds coming from between the cracks in the serrated concrete used to surface most of them! If we are modelling a city centre location, oily deposits will show between the rails on lines where diesels park, not just on loco shed roads (with very faded CIE green on the doors, and the adjacent ivy-clad bricked-up water tower), but also on terminus platform roads, like at Loughrea in "G" class times. Prior to the diesel era, soot, piles of ashes and firemans shovels lying on the ground for spreading it out, will be essential for any shed. Look at the groun surface at Whitehead, now in use as a steam shed for some forty years - longer than some in railway service. The ground cover is ashes to the top of rail level, with piles appearing beside the track where locos are swept out. And the final random musing for tonight, on wagons... Back in the day, paint was dear. The railways were - well, dirty. Thus, while locos and coaches were generally well looked after, as were stations, good trucks were like they are today - often drab, often so filthy and unkempt you could hardly tell what colour they had been painted in. At least there wasn't the awful graffiti we have now.... liveries are covered elsewhere, but broadly speaking if you have a layout prior to the late 60s, everything is grey, and a shade as good as identical to English LMS grey. The lighter grey used by CIE mostly on "H" vans was a very late 1950s / early 1960s innovation. And the brown came in later - again, for all three, nothing was black. Roofs and chassis were body colour, though brake dust changed the hue of anything below platform level pretty quick. So if we are modelling before the black'n'tan era, dirty wagons are a must - the more heavily weathered (so no two are alike) the better. Corrugated-side open trucks were all over the system from the early '50s, though at that stage were in the minority, most opens being wooden. By the late 60s, wooden opens (and indeed, wooden framed vans) were rare in traffic. A few more observations, as I said; hopefully of use to modellers.

I'll post this in two parts, as the site only sems to accommodate so many words per post! Here's part 1... One detail on many layouts is what is in the background, lurking in weedy sidings and so on. Nowadays, most of this can be classed under the headings of (a) graffiti, (b) litter, and © security fences. It was not always thus! If we bear in mind that the above was all but unknown prior to 1975/80, also that the main difference in peripheral rolling stock was twofold - (a) the railways had much more spare stock than now, of all types, and (b) there were spare sidings all over the place, in practically every station, we can paint a picture useful to modellers of a different landscape. Look at the likes of the Dundalk Works layout that appears at exhibitions. Yes, trains go round and very well they look. The models are accurate and appropriate to the place and period. But look at the background! Wagons, locos and coaches in sidings, men working and so on. If none of that was on the layout it wouldn't be as convincing. Weathering also plays its part - how often have any of us gone to a railway station and seen every vehicle and building newly painted? Answer: never. Looking under several headings.... 1. Weathering. Many of us will like pristine models, and I agree - many posted on these boards recently look STUNNING. But others prefer technical realism. One important thing is that for those who prefer realism, weathering of virtually every single thing on the layout is a must. The work of several "weatherers" on these boards is deservedly well known. Another thing is HOW things got weathered. Any steam era layout had coal smoke hanging in the air as well as a great deal more brake dust due to more shunting. In fact, while we see pictures of both the UTA and CIE railways being comparatively well kept in the 60s, 70s and 80s, a few years earlier the environment was by today's standards, filthy. A realistic approach to modelling will therefore have light weathering on most things in the "black'n'tan" era which are IN traffic, but there will be sidings typically with a few semi- or totally abandoned 4 wheel vans in them, grey paint faded away badly, chassis a nondescript muddy / rusty colour, and roofs just looking - well - weatherbeaten. In this era, we will often have old liveries giving way to new; anything with the old will be much more weathered because it is either to be withdrawn short term, or awaits repainting. An important point here is that while diesel locos and coaches, and even wagons, in traffic were clean, this was more due to be being KEPT clean than repainted often. Per unit, paint was more expensive then than it is now, and the railway had teams of its own painters. Painting a wagon could be done in a shed, without computer-controlled specialist 2 pack machinery (whatever that is!!) and health and safety rigmaroles with ventilation and masks. If we are modelling any time in the steam era, we can generally take it that in these times, wagons were very unkempt when in use, clean grey gradually being patched up (due to economy) rather than completely repainted. Thus, wagons with "D S E R", "G S W R" and "M G W R" could be sen - tattered looking maybe, well into GSR days, almost to 1940. It is quite possible that a handful of wagons might have come into CIE ownership with VERY tattered pre-GSR initials on them. CIE seemed to embrace their new corporate image much quicker - while money was scarce, it had been even more so in GSR days. GSR era maroon coaches, especially older six wheeled ones, had their maroon faded to a (brake dust tinted) rusty red colour, especially visible on the ends. Locos, on the other hand, in GSR days were reasonable well kept, although the "battleship grey" tended to darken after much polishing with oily rags, sometimes making the smokebox front (hotter surface - attendant effect on paint!) look almost black. Soot from the chimney added to this. Red buffer beams faded too, and the transfer numerals lost their shine, especially the gold bits. Fast forward to CIE days, and locos could hardly have looked worse. The cabside numbers were often faded to a nondescript "light" colour best described as a dirty greyish yellow, and if the tender did have a "flying snail" (not all did) it was usually worse. The external condition of many locos was a mixture of dirt, soot, coal dust and brake dust heavily coated over the grey paint. Smokeboxes often had the paint burned off them, and both somkebox doors and chimneys would be bare burned rusty brownish metal. On locos painted green, the dirt would have made most of the boiler look black, especially the dome; in fact, this was worse on ex-GNR locos. I remember some thirty years ago a lively debate among some RPSI members where some advanced the theory that the GNR painted domes black, because that's all they'd ever seen, and a look at Robert Rosbotham's book on the CDRJC shows that one might be forgiven for thinking that the CDR painted domes AND boilers black! The silver "livery" of unpainted aluminium applied to coacjes and new diesels between 1955 and 1958 was interesting and fresh on the first day in use, but VERY rapidly became a filty dull grey - probably the least durable finish for any railway vehicle ever. So a layout based in, say, 1960, could have very dirty wooden wagons, brand new ones in light grey, very filthy steam locos, but lightly weatherd diesel locos and coaches. Older wooden coaches are dark green still - badly faded by this stage, and well weathered, or the new (post '55) lighter green; while anything silver would certainly have the bogies weathered by brown brake dust (how long in use can BOGIES stay SILVER!!!??), and of course new post '62 black and tan would be pristine, and at that stage very much kept that way. Older wagons in fifty shades of grey (see what I did there?), and an older darker shade, faded snails included. Livery detail: it seems that wagons painted in the earlier (probably pre-1950) period had light green snails and numerals instead of cream as later. By 1960, a few of these might rest in out of the way / rarely used places, perhaps against the buffers in a long siding. Wooden carriages faded quicker than steel ones, probably partly due to "steels" / laminates being easier to clean (smooth surface) and the fact that anything wooden will be more susceptible to damp getting into the wood, and paint peeling. Old six wheelers used for years as brakes on branch lines might not see the inside of Inchicore or Limerick's paint shops as often, and would also be kept in the open more. Brake vehicles / mail vans etc were not cleaned as often, and the state of some of the 4 wheeled "tin vans" even in the otherwise very clean black'n'tan era was pretty grubby with brake dust. Another livery detail worth noting: CIE painted the ends of carriages black in most or all cases, though I think some narrow gauge vehicles at least had green ends. Nothing at all in the b'n't era had "b'n't" on the ends - always black, and usually with a good smattering of brake dust. BUT - the GSR painted the ends of six wheel and non-corridor coaches the same as the body colour, with the exception of the brown and cream stock, which had black ends. It is possible that CIE painted plain dark green on the ends of stuff like that right at the start, but I haven't any evidence of it. The GSR painted the "Bredins" black on the ends. Here endeth part 1....

Was in the same boat with a Hornby 00 layout in my teens (1000 years ago) and to make overgrown scrubland (because nothing approaching realism for grass was then to be had) I just pulled lumps of moss out of the lawn and dried them. In time they fade a bit, so replacing the odd bit now and again made a 100% natural variety of shades. Terrible dust collector though.... when you lifted it all to replace or rearrange there was a layer of dust on the baseboard!

Brilliant stuff Dingle.

And there were many ex-GNR wagons - particularly covered vans and grain wagons - which received standard strsight-topped CIE plates with the same number and "N" suffix. I saw a wagon being scrapped about 40 years ago with a plate with "CIE" and "66N" - went back to retrieve one or b oth plates but they had gone... pity. It was one of the standard 1950s covered vans built by the GN - much the same as CIE "H" vans but with corrugated metal ends. There are LMS-type Hornby models of a very similar LMS van which is easy to just repaint as a CIE one (with an "N" suffix, and maybe faded "G N" showing under the CIE emblem!). Incidentally, the wagon was grey, not brown, though I am sure some got the brown treatment. These vans could still be seen kicking about in sidings until about 1980.

Ah it's too cold in Scandanavia.... and if you search for "Virgin" trains, what would you get? !!

I think that rust can look darker in colour where salt air abounds; look at the ruin round loop in Portrush, or bits of rail in fences in the west... That French place looks very much like a Continental Portrush - and maybe inspiration to a modeller of a fictitious modern day Tramore line? Self contained systems are always interesting to model, n'est ce pas?

Many thanks, RedRich. As I say I'm fortunate in having access to a load of stuff which predates my own personal observations (early 1960s in my case). If there is anything historical, and I throw this open to anyone, that you'd like me to look up in what I have, I'd be pleased to post it here, as there's nothing better than looking at a high quality model of something past which just takes you back... a Woolwich with four driving wheels or a train of laminates in pink, hauled by a 1980s French diesel wouldn't do it for me - and yet, in my youth, I got enormous pleasure from my first layout which in accuracy terms was Alice in Wonderland stuff! Not everyone is interested in recreating history, but I suppose my point is that for those who ARE, the more info they can get the better. It seems to me that there has never been a better time for the hobby. The internet enables people who follow what in the past was of necessity often a quite solitary hobby, to exchange ideas and offer moral support to one another. Kits are available for all sorts of Irish stuff - the Worsley works website was the first I ever saw, but look at what Des (SSM), Leslie and many another one offers nowadays - nobody could have dreamed of such modelling riches. Scenic materials have come on - real looking grass and shrubs - and people - mean that some well-photographed scenes on models could easily be passed off as real. Those modelling a fantasy world* (e.g. there were 20 x 800 class!!!) have their imagination as the limit - i.e. no limit. Those modelling accuracy in the present day have the IE tramway and the NIR tramway all round them, and digital cameras can take a million images of one raiilcar. In my day, a roll of film and the processing cost was expensive to a teenager so we had to make do with rationing so many photos a day. Not easy to model something from two photos. Those modelling the past have access to the internet, and for a forum like this if anyone can post up stuff that might assist the historically minded, the better. * Talking of fantasy layouts, my first attempt (long dismantled) was an imaginary MGWR narrow gauge line with West Clare railcars......

Eiretrains, a colleague in the railway writing world had approached me to discuss a book based on what was in the old IRNs. They are indeed fascinating, and they cover a very interesting period. I suppose the thing with any book is how to make it marketable: a re-hash of the IRNs alone might not be saleable in quantities that would interest a publisher. I have a plan B for such things, but it would be a long way down the road. The other issue is that the actual period in history has been well covered by other books. I was brought up on Colin Boocock's book (an the IRNs and the like), as it photographically covered many lines - especially the narrow gauge and West Cork - not previously well covered in that way. But who knows. Next time I am in London (or he is here) we will sup some pints and see what we can come up with. The follow up, in the meantime, to "Rails Through The West" will certainly feature goods trains of various hues a lot, from the same period; in fact the subject matter to be covered has sparse colour passenger photo coverage - which is what might hold it up! In terms of digitising the old IRNs, that's a great idea (and you're the man to do it based on your illustrious track record so far!). I think that for any publication to come from such a project, a comparative selection of unpublished photos, including perhaps those of demolitions, would be needed. There's something to delve into in itself. The results of such a project would make an excellent reference for modellers and histiorians, if properly done. If and when you have time, gimme a shout privately.

I'll dig out a few more tomorrow night when I'm at home; away today! Any particular year interest you?