jhb171achill

The maroon livery really looked the business on them when new, as did the maroon and blue livery. Personally, I thought the later liveries - especially the grey and light blue on carriages - looked a bit watery.....

Congrats, looks great! NCC modelling is something that could always do with greater exposure.....

That's the good thing about model railways - we can preserve and operate what we like, even if nobody else is interested! Notwithstanding what I said, the unique ex- SLNCR railcar is at Downpatrick and the plan is to restore it (albeit a very long term project), and watch this space re an 80 class.....................!!

That's right Mayner, though I suspect later in the 60s. That said, whether a "normal" set was 3 or 4 car, or anything else, doesn't mean that the odd train was 2 or 5! I do remember redaing of two car AEC / BUT sets on SOME DSER trains in the early or mid 60s, though this would have been the exception (I would think) rather than the rule. I saw a pic, right enough, of the set you mention - and it had a 4th livery: a dirty looking silver tin van in tow! I have a pic somewhere - if only I could find it - of an AEC set on the Portadown line in 1967. It is a standard ex-GN set as usual on that line at the time 3 car. One car is in UTA green with wasp striped front; one in UTA's GN section blue and cream, and one in brand new maroon and grey (NIR). I must try to dig it out.

Disgraceful, letting graffiti'd ones stay like that. Some image for the railway!

A little footnote re 121's: DCDR toyed with the idea of approaching IE for one, but decided aganist it due to (a) driver visibility on Downpatrick North Junction curve when running nose-first, and (b) the almost simultaneous offer by the ITG to provide A39! Who knows...

Sounds a bit like the case for building two more "800" class 4.6.0's!

Yellow rear numberplate: speed in the south. White numberplate: speed in the north. Not that I'd dream of it, of course. But rumour has it................. Disclaimer: "Speed" does not necessarily imply a speed in excess of the legal limit..... I'll get me coat.

Very true, weshty. I remember standing at Port Laoise thinking "will I bother taking a pic of this" - the subject was the 10:30 to Cork, with a pair of 141s up front, and eleven carriages, a BR van and a "tin van". That train tended to be busy. I noticed even then that almost no two coaches were alike. There were numerous varieties of "laminates" to start with, but some tended to be altered, often quite a few times. There was at least one Bredin in it, and one Craven. I eventually took one pic of it disappearing into the distance, but it's not a great one....

Sulzer, you're looking at AEC railcars mostly at that stage. May '66 almost all black'n'tan, possibly still a rare green one. In 1962/3 there was one AEC car in GNR navy and cream which would turn up on that line now and again. Your AEC will usually be a three car set, often trailing one or two four wheeled (not six wheeled) tin vans. The centre car could well be the RPSI's ex-GNR brake 2nd, which was the last coach in traffic in GNR livery. It skipped the green era and was still navy and cream when repainted into black'n'tan in 1965/6. Other possible centre cars would be laminates or Park Royals usually. "A" class locos would feature on specials, as would 141s or 121s. Possibly the odd service train too, in which case the coaching stock would be laminates, Park Royals, and Bredins. Cravens would be unlikely in May '66 though I wouldn't rule the odd one out. Very occasionally, a wooden bogie - almost certainly of GSWR origin, but black'n'tan - would appear. There was a rake of them kept in traffic until 1974, even including at least one gas lit non corridor example, though this particular specimen spent its twilight years on seaside-specials duty in Dublin. In those days, when the tramway we have now was actually a railway, there was no such thing as these fixed-formation trains we have now. You could get all sorts of things; that's what made it interesting. The front and rear of your train could have one or two four or six wheeled "tin vans", or a bogie full brake. There was still a solitary wooden ex-GSWR six wheeled full brake in traffic at that stage, though the only pics I've seen of it are on the Galway line. I believe it survived until 1967, and was one of only two similar 6-wheeled coaches ever to get black'n'tan livery. (No passenger-carrying ones ever did). Had it appeared on the DSER, it most likely would have been stuck on the end of an AEC set - where you could find all sorts of things, even standard "H" goods vans (all-over grey!) Dutch and BR vans would not have featured at all at that stage. Now, the goods trains..............

Did he carry it about with him in case anyone was in doubt?

The thing about railcar preservation is that two factors have to be taken into account; the emotional and the practical. The "emotional" relates to the natural attachment we all, as enthusiasts, have towards certain vehicles. In truth, railcars are much less popular among the majority of enthusiasts than steam or diesel locomotives - that said, they are of equal historic interest. However, preservationists are volunteers, free to go to the ITG / DCDR / RPSI or not, as they see fit. Bein volunteers, they work on what they want to work on themselv es, and excellent results ensue. The fact that among even railcars, 450s were about the least popular (along with the awful MEDs and MPDs). Personally, I detested tht things. They were ugly, severely uncomfortable to travel in, with two speeds: "stop" and "go". In winter they were draughty and freezing, in summer stuffy. The seats were so much lower than the windows that a decent view out involved sitting upright. Ghastly things. Fair enough, that's just my view: others may differe and I respect that. But the reality is that among my own contacts in the RPSI, DCDR and ITG (and I am a member of all three), I am unaware of one person who would have any real interest in preserving one. Now - the other reason is more important; the practical. Nobody, but nobody, among the general public would be interested in a DCDR or RPSI day out in one, thus preservation of one as a revenue-earning train is unrealistic. That said, should someone stump up sufficient money and space, there's no reason why one could not have been saved as a static exhibit somewhere. Overall, I would personally take the view that an 80 class is historically of much greater worthiness for preservation - as indeed is the last remaining AEC car, 6111 in inchicore, still in posession of its original steam heating boiler. The length of time it has been there, and the extent to which it is well known among enthusiasts, and the attendant lack of interest by anyone in putting down money and time to preserve it, tells its own story. A pity, but there ye go. I suppose the bottom line is that we can hardly preserve everything; the lack of any MGWR or CBSCR loco surviving the pogrom of the early 1960s is also a shame, but nobody's died as a result.....

It was indeed at that time they came in and yes, they were to be seen in the same rake, albeit not that often. The "Galway" liveried ones also ran mixed in with others of normal orange and black livery. While I never saw all three variants in the same train, there is no reason why it shouldn't have happened. Back in the day, a train could have Park Royals, Bredins, several types of laminates, along with Cravens in the same train - but that's another story.

Is that an Australian train in the pic above?

So there I was, sitting in the usual 24xx "laminate" dining car, having my dinner off the usual bent-edged tray, with dribbly teapot, cup and saucer; no plastic Costa Coffee cups in those days. It was lashing down. Pouring for the third day in a row, and carting myself about the countryside on a runabout ticket meant a dash across a platform to a connecting train or bus, with no chance of taking photographs. In any event, I could just afford maybe one 36 exposure film a week with my pocket money - and that didn't include posting it to England to have it developed. I was treating myself: full dinner was over £3, but a steak on a moving train is only inferior as a life experience to a pint of Guinness on a steam hauled one, so that was that. The quarter light of the window above me was dripping, as were others, and across the aisle there was a drip from the ceiling onto an unoccupied seat. We must have been hurtling towards Athlone, as at Ballinasloe our "A" class slowed, stopped, and picked up a passenger who, let us say, was of somewhat rural background. He was also three sheets to the wind; sozzled, gee-eyed, away with the drink, frolicking in the meadows with the Sweetie Mice. He tottered to the seat opposite and sat down heavily, oblivious to the constant drip on his shoulder. Out came the pipe, which he lit up. Along came the Tickets-Please man. "Ye can't smoke that in here. Ye have to go to the smokin' carriage". "Wha?" "I said, ye can't smoke that here. This is the dining car, you can't......" "Wha? Do I look like in in de dining car? I'm not *** eatin anything!" "I told ye. Ye CAN'T SMOKE IN HEAR. YE HEAR ME!" "I'll **** smoke wherever I **** like, ye little *****!" At this, the Rural Gentlemen stood up, took off his jacket, and rolled up his sleeves. I turned to look ouit of the window, admiring the grey rain pouring out of a grey sky onto barely visible grey turf bog, as we sped through eastern Co Galway. The guard retreated, collected his thoughts, and came back, "If ye don't put that ***** thing out NOW, I'm stoppin' the train at Athlone and I'll get ye ****ed off the train where ye belong. Right?" The rural one ignored him, and smoked his pipe. At Athlone, the guard reappeared with a different type of guard. Or Garda. This time, Rural one was civil, though still slurred.... a somewhat more muted conversation ensued, and he completed his journey to Dublin with his pipe in his pocket. Up front, the "A" purred away, speeding its motley selection of half a dozen laminates and Park Royals eastward through Athlone and Mullingar, and finally Westland Row; sorry, Pearse. Our pipe smoking friend still never noticed the dripping......

Simple; he was just on the turntable. Lucky he didn't fall into the pit.....

I remember it well! Whitehead, back in the day... A few well known now late middle aged men in view.....

I'm actually beginning (just about!) to prefer that all-grey to the black and silver! Probably mostly because there's less yellow....

From an old diary: Saturday: Cork with (brand new) 071. Sunday: Belfast with 060 (A60). Monday: Sligo with a pair of 121's (numbers not recorded), returning with 133 + 135 (cab run as far as Dromod in leading 133). Tuesday: Cork again with a pair; 121+ unidentified 141, out to Coph and back with 155, cab run. Wednesday: Limerick with unidentified A class, bus to Tralee, and return with 020 (A20) as far as Mallow, then an 071 back to Dublin. On another day, footplated 077 to Cork, came back with another 071, sat in laminate dining car 24xx series, had a well done steak, chips, dessert, tea (from a dribbly pot) on the 17:30 to Heuston, which loaded to 10 bogies and two four wheel "tin vans". Then A class 010 (before it was destroyed in the crash at Lisburn!) to Wexford, 008 back. And a run to Howth with 209 (C class) and a set of ricketty de-engined, plastic seated push-pulls. About a week later, a run from York Road to Coleraine in a 70 class; the driving trailer was leading and the train was trying to make up time. I have never, before or since, had such a lively run on a train anywhere in the world! Then a run along Lisburn - Antrim in a single car MPD - the line had just been re-opened. It was to be the only time I travelled in an MPD. It might have been No. 64 or 65 - not sure. I noted that it was some five years since my last journey in one, which had seen me taking an ex-GN railcar set in black'n'tan to Dundalk, changing there into a similar set, but in NIR livery.... The CIE ones had unusual circular neon light bulbs, while the NIR ones had straight ones! At Portadown, three drunk young men got on and spent the rest of the journey singing offensive sectarian songs.... Those were the days. Apart from the songs, wouldn;t it be great to have a little of it back!

Interesting! So that confirms it. Maybe the railways of Antarctica will adopt the MGWR coat of arms next! :-)

In relation to how common these were, they were more common probably than any other type! But CIE embarked on a programme of building their standard ones in the 50s, and as Mayner says, anything deemed non-standard by Inchicore was the first to go. One van, Timoleagure & Courtmacsherry No. 5, did make it to the closure of the West Cork system (and for those interested, in battered weathered all-grey; no stripes of course). The above type was to be seen on goods train into the late 60s on occasions, but I would not think after that.

That's in Head Hunters in Enniskillen. The paint on all those crests is original railway company stuff. I can vouch for the ancestry of the excellent collection in Head Hunters Railway Museum there, which is well worth a look. That particular "snail" was presented to the original owner by the DUT Co. Thus, the paint is one of the few genuine examples of the exact green used by the DUT - and CIE - until the lighter green came into use in 1955.

That would seem most likely. The story of how DUTC got it is widely quoted by reliable sources; thus it does indeed seem the Dutch copied it from either DUTC or early CIE. Done'n'dusted!

If they had it in the 1940s, I suppose either the Dutch could have copied it from the DUTC (rather than CIE), but equally the DUTC could have copied it from the Dutch. If the Dutch bus livery turns out to be pre-1941, then the DUTC have directly copied it from the Dutch - thus the original theory about the London Transport origin needs considerable amendment. Could the Dutch have based their design on London, followed by CIE copying it? Either is possible, but the London Transport theory has wide currency.

I wonder where they got it from, and when? CIE adopted it directly from the Dublin United Tramways Company, who had introduced it about 1941. The DUT based the design on the London Underground "bar and circle" device, still used today - possibly one of the longest running corporate identity logos in the world?