Irish Model Railway track plans

[David Holman]

Splendid! Have relations in Vancouver and on the Island & their houses very much echo what you describe. If only...

[David Holman]

20 hours ago, Sean said:

emergency alterations to the track plan must be proposed after another disastrous running session with this design.

 

It is fairly well documented that if you put a curve directly after a hornby point, theres a good chance that a full train load of rolling stock wont be able to get over it without incident, a fact largely ignored within this design. I had intended to go all peco with the pointwork, alas the one peco point in this plan is also suffering the same issue so i dont know how much of a difference such an upgrade would make in my case.

 

for the most part the pointwork is okay but to access the middle siding its literally a snake way of turnouts. what im noticing is that the narrow modern couplings seem to nearly always bind up momentarily  when going through this trio of points,  seems to effect most of my rolling stock wether its 4w or bogie based, so enough is enough, 

 

decided this is what im going to do,  experimented with making the loop larger but unfortunately that would sacrifice the turntable road and i will also have to go cutting new track to size, so for handiness sake this is the only real option to get things running smoothly.

 

is the cross over more of less prototypical? it should be more reliable in the long run so it must stay for practicality sake, plus i already own the crossover so  theres no expense involved. does it all alter the "irishness" of the track plan all that much? my gorey layout DID have somthing similar enough.

 

Here are the track plans from the back two pages of the Freezer Booklet '60 Plans for Small Railways'. As you can see, most are 1.8 x 0.3m [6'x1' in old money], though one is about the same length as your proposal. Fairly sure they use Peco 60cm radius points.

 The short plan uses Y points though - something well worth considering as they are great space savers. Where possible though, it helps running quality to arrange points as a ladder, avoiding that reverse curve which is causing the problems. One thought is to have the turntable accessed from the middle siding, via a diamond over the track to the front siding.

 However, might be worth considering moving the turntable to form part of the run round loop, as below:

 There were several examples of this in Ireland, Foynes for one and each end of the Waterford & Tramore another. Harcourt St too, I think. My sketch is one of many attempts to redraw Castle Rackrent, Richard Chown's legendary 7mm broad gauge layout from the 1970s. Putting the turntable here saves a lot of space, because two points and the headhunt will occupy over 60cm of space in 4mm scale, whereas the turntable will only need 30cm at the most. 

 Mine is drawn for 7mm scale, but am sure you can play around with it to suit your own ideas. The two middle points are both Y format.

Hope that helps!

 

[Northroader]

I’m glad to see Castle Rackrent is being mentioned, to my mind it is an outstanding model, very Irish in application, and yet built as an operating model railway without copying any particular place. It must have been among the first to use the now common branch line terminus to fiddle yard configuration?, as well as the kickback siding to mask the fiddle yard. Then at the time it was done, it used the correct 5’3” gauge, which would have caused real problems back then, these days you can get the right wheelsets and axles commercially, making it much simpler.

Two pointers in the design, see how the backscene follows a flowing reverse curve to cross the tracks at the overbridge, the tracks taking an opposite handed curve, all too often now you see the bridge placed square across the tracks. Then there’s the turntable, good to save pointwork space, and necessary on a lot of Irish lines, but problematical in getting out of proportion to the rest of the layout with a small line and a table for tender locos.

[Mayner]

On 21/3/2022 at 8:55 AM, Sean said:

emergency alterations to the track plan must be proposed after another disastrous running session with this design.

 

It is fairly well documented that if you put a curve directly after a hornby point, theres a good chance that a full train load of rolling stock wont be able to get over it without incident, a fact largely ignored within this design. I had intended to go all peco with the pointwork, alas the one peco point in this plan is also suffering the same issue so i dont know how much of a difference such an upgrade would make in my case.

 

for the most part the pointwork is okay but to access the middle siding its literally a snake way of turnouts. what im noticing is that the narrow modern couplings seem to nearly always bind up momentarily  when going through this trio of points,  seems to effect most of my rolling stock wether its 4w or bogie based, so enough is enough, 

 

decided this is what im going to do,  experimented with making the loop larger but unfortunately that would sacrifice the turntable road and i will also have to go cutting new track to size, so for handiness sake this is the only real option to get things running smoothly.

 

is the cross over more of less prototypical? it should be more reliable in the long run so it must stay for practicality sake, plus i already own the crossover so  theres no expense involved. does it all alter the "irishness" of the track plan all that much? my gorey layout DID have somthing similar enough.

 

The challenges of building a relatively compact layout in a small space. Set track has the great advantage that you can test different track layouts before committing yourself to the final layout and fixing everything down.

I had similar problems with couplers and small radius points in the fiddle yard on my large scale garden railway when I changed from LGB (similar to an inverted tension lock) to Knuckle mounted couplers and eventually replaced the fiddle yard points.

It might be worth replacing the narrow couplings with Hornby R8267 Medium Width tension locks if you are committed to Hornby or Peco Settrack points, changing to the medium couplers should reduce problems coupling up and de-railing . https://www.gaugemasterretail.com/magento/hornby-R8267.html

Another potential problem is a bogie stock de-railing running through conventional crossovers, the reason CJ Freezer used left and right hand points to construct crossovers on the Minnories Suburban layout in 60 Plans for small railways. You seem to have avoided this on your layout and the diamond crossing arrangement has been used on full sized railways where space was tight

 

[David Holman]

Privileged to meet Richard once, at the Manchester Show, the Christmas before he died. We ran his SLNCR Lissadel on my Arigna Town layout (there are photos in the layouts section here if you scroll down far enough) and I am now the proud owner of his WL&W 0-6-0 Shannon as well as a Terry McDermott kit of a 101 class that he never got round to building.

 Prolific modeller and lovely man. His layout designs very much focussed on the   'less is more' concept, but were also very much about prototype working practice. An internet search of Castle Rackrent will give lots of pictures.

[Northroader]

“Less is more” (text for today) I’ve got this thing about what I call the “Lilliput Lane” approach. They were a firm producing collectors pieces of small moulded models of picturesque buildings. Generally the architecture was boiled right down, and the detailing went to a “roses round the door” approach, to the extent that you could regard them as “twee”. They’ve gone out of business, but you can still find them. They did a few of railway stations, the main building plus a loco, which I enjoyed seeing, as to me they capture the spirit of the place very well.

Translating this to an Irish setting, you can have:

There’s a building, (sort of “Ballaghaderreen” in half relief) a loco, (Leinster Models kit) and the other essential, for me, a back scene. What you can see is 0 scale on an acreage of one square foot. I’m more of a builder than an operator, and I like doing 7mm modelling because of the bulk of the individual models. Now, I agree that a bit more should be added out of necessity, a couple of six wheeler coaches for the loco to pull, and a few, very few, wagons to shunt in a siding. You have a microlayout, where you can test out what you’ve built, and potter with some shunting for the odd half an hour. Just a small personal thing.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Northroader

[Galteemore]

That’s a lovely little E class; and with the correctly painted green underframe, too! 

Edited March 22, 2022 by Galteemore

[Mayner]

I seem to have spent a lot of time planning North Kerry Layouts for someone that's mainly interested in the Midland!

I explored the North Kerry Yard, Ardfert, Abbeydorney, Spa and Fenit by bicycle while on holidays in Tralee shortly after the Fenit Branch and the Tralee-Abbeydorney section of the North Kerry closed to Beet Traffic, at the time Tralee North Kerry Yard was in use for Goods Traffic as the GSWR Yard was being upgraded to handle container and palletised freight under the Rail Plan 80 Scheme.

 

The layout plan is based on fitting a 21mm gauge Fenit Station and Quay in the 17' x 12' garage, I originally drew up a plan for an L shaped shelf layout to fit a 7'6" X 5' space, but was unable to develop a workable plan for OO let alone 21mm gauge!

In a way Fenit is ideal for a quickie layout as the main feature is the backscene a panorama of Tralee Bay with Sliabh Mish in the background, almost an Irish Kyle of Lochalsh with little in the way of foreground features or buildings, the Station Building Engine and Goods Shes appear to have been demolished many years ago, the Warehouse on the Quay being a simple structure.

I have sketched in a possible continuous run connecting the pier and staging, alternatively the pier could be swung round to form a peninsula with access on both sides with the staging restricted to the area at the Tralee end of the station near the loco shed

Operationally it could be quite interesting a small fleet of Self Propelled Steam Cranes were used for loading and unloading cargo until rail operations ceased on the quay in the mid-1970s, when traffic was heavy CIE used a G Class loco for shunting wagons over the Causeway between Fenit Station and Quay with Main Line Diesel Locomotives or an E Class working trains to and from Tralee, with Beet Specials operating between Tuam-Tralee-Fenit and Abbeydorney during the Autumn and Winter.

The layout is mainly intended for modellers who are more interested in kit and scratchbuilding than collecting rtr-models though IRM & MM rtr locos and stock would speed up getting the railway up and running. In GSR/CIE steam days the GSWR 101 Class and ex-GSWR 6 wheel stock would have predominated, (regular passenger services ceased 1934), an ex-MGWR Small Tank redundant form the Waterford & Tramore was transferred to Tralee to work the branch in the late 1950s. Scratch building possibilities are endless with ex WLWR locos including Fenit Harbour Pier and Harbour Company"Shamrock"  later GSWR/GSR/CIE 299.

A 7mm model of Fenit Station or Pier would make good 'stand alone' models in 7mm, Alphagraphix produce etched kits of d 1934), an ex-MGWR Small Tank redundant form the Waterford & Tramore was transferred to Tralee to work the branch in the late 1950s. Scratch building possibilities are endless with ex WLWR locos including Fenit Harbour Pier and Harbour Company" Shamrock"  299,  GSWR Ivatt 2-4-2Ts and ex-MGWR Small Tank locomotives.

 

 

[Galteemore]

1 hour ago, Mayner said:

 

A 7mm model of Fenit Station or Pier would make good 'stand alone' models in 7mm, Alphagraphix produce etched kits of d 1934), an ex-MGWR Small Tank redundant form the Waterford & Tramore was transferred to Tralee to work the branch in the late 1950s. Scratch building possibilities are endless with ex WLWR locos including Fenit Harbour Pier and Harbour Company" Shamrock"  299,  GSWR Ivatt 2-4-2Ts and ex-MGWR Small Tank locomotives.

 

 

 

Excellent John. And virtually all of the above available as 7mm kits,too….

[David Holman]

Nice one. Plenty of ideas to play with there, John.

[Northroader]

Run rounds, who needs them? (Discuss)

With a layout purporting to be a micro, you get a fiddle yard feeding the main board with, say, two or three roads, which may, or may not, merge into points before exiting into the fiddle yard. All very well for wagon shunting where you keep the loco at the fiddle yard end. But, if you want to have an actual station with trains running in, there’s the problem that the arriving train ends up with its loco trapped at the dead end, and an allowance to runround the loco needs adding. Plain track with point, sector table, turntable, extra road to be added?? All taking up space, as John has shown.

How about extending the line into a “pocket”?

Here the main line on the station board keeps on going through a hole in the backscene and on to a loco size cassette. (14” long in 0 scale, which takes in three-axle tender engines, 4-4-0s need not apply) This can turn the loco, with much less space than a turntable, and provide accommodation. The pocket is 12” wide, so you can have odd items of rolling stock or locos lurking on cassettes as well. When the train arrives, you just detach the loco and run it into the pocket, then a second loco comes off the fiddle yard, takes over the shunting and leaves with the train. When the main line is clear, you just do a light engine movement out of the pocket and into the fiddle yard.

[Galteemore]

Never mind the track technicalities, show us more locos ! That 2-4-0 is gorgeous 

[Northroader]

Well, I did show them on my thread on RMweb, and...er, what’s that? Oh yeah, right.... So... I mustn’t clutter up a track planning thread, so watch this space, I’ll try and get something going here.

[BosKonay]

With Rm down, it reinforces the value of 'local' content.

[David Holman]

19 hours ago, Northroader said:

Run rounds, who needs them? (Discuss)

With a layout purporting to be a micro, you get a fiddle yard feeding the main board with, say, two or three roads, which may, or may not, merge into points before exiting into the fiddle yard. All very well for wagon shunting where you keep the loco at the fiddle yard end. But, if you want to have an actual station with trains running in, there’s the problem that the arriving train ends up with its loco trapped at the dead end, and an allowance to runround the loco needs adding. Plain track with point, sector table, turntable, extra road to be added?? All taking up space, as John has shown.

How about extending the line into a “pocket”?

Here the main line on the station board keeps on going through a hole in the backscene and on to a loco size cassette. (14” long in 0 scale, which takes in three-axle tender engines, 4-4-0s need not apply) This can turn the loco, with much less space than a turntable, and provide accommodation. The pocket is 12” wide, so you can have odd items of rolling stock or locos lurking on cassettes as well. When the train arrives, you just detach the loco and run it into the pocket, then a second loco comes off the fiddle yard, takes over the shunting and leaves with the train. When the main line is clear, you just do a light engine movement out of the pocket and into the fiddle yard.

Cassettes have a lot going for them, especially in terms of saving space as shown here. My ones use aluminium angle instead of actual track, which improves rigidity. Accurate alignment and good electrical connection (you can't solder aluminium) are the two main issues. Solved mine by screwing the angle to thin plywood, with the screws projecting underneath. The cassettes rest on two strips of brass, which are connected to the track feed, so the current passes through the screws. Alignment is simply a strip of wood that the cassette is pushed against. Minor adjustment can by made via shims of plasticard, though haven't found this necessary.

 Long cassettes can be unwieldy and you certainly wouldn't want to rotate a whole train! However have a separate loco cassette means only the engine needs moving and turning, using simple handles as per Northroader's picture.

[jhb171achill]

17 hours ago, BosKonay said:

With Rm down, it reinforces the value of 'local' content.

Very much so.

[Mayner]

To get back to the original topic Hazlehatch and Celbridge one of my favorite small stations ideal for just sitting back and watching trains go by.

Using selective compression the area section between the two road bridges could be modelled in a reasonably modest space, the station has a railway village atmosphere with distinctive Sancton Wood Gothic station building and stone railway cottages.

I explored the station after getting my first car around 1980 and was a favorite spot for watching the Ballina, Cork and Waterford on mid-Summer evenings in the late 90s early 20s. The station became more accessible with the introduction of the Kildare suburban services in the early 90s and transformed when the Cork Line was quadrupled between Clondalkin and Hazlehatch in 2008.

 

 

Hazlehatch was one of last stations to handle cattle traffic, the station along with Leixlip on the Galway line served a meat packing plant located between Leixlip and Celbridge. The cattle pens were modern tubular steel rather than the traditional rail or stone construction used by the railways.

The station was closed to goods traffic, sidings and mechanical signals removed during November 1975 as part of the Heuston-Ballybrophy CTC project, the former layby-goods siding west of the Celbridge-Newcastle road was extended and converted into a CTC to allow fast passenger trains to overtake goods and Liner Trains.

Until recently acquiring or building suitable locos and rolling stock would have been the main challenge in modelling a station or section of busy main line, the challenge is now financing the stock and providing adequate staging to operate the layout in a prototypical manner rather than simply relax and watch trains run bye.

Its should be reasonably achievable to stock the layout to operate a model or Hazlehatch between the early 1970s to early 2000s  as suitable locos and rolling stock to cover the majority of passenger and many of the freight diagrams are either available, have been produced or are due for release in rtr form or as kits.

The line was re-laid with CWR on concrete sleepers (points and crossings on timber!) during the 1970s as part of the Dublin-Cork Line Upgrade.

Peco Bullhead Track with Large Radius points would be a good choice for modelling Hazlehatch in pre-CTC days Peco (SL8302) Code 83 Concrete Sleeper Track and Code 83 points should give a better visual appearance with a lower profile than Code OO concrete sleeper track for modelling Irish concrete sleeper track, the Peco Code 83 points are more prototypical in appearance and design than Peco Code 75 and Code 100 points which largely eliminated the Ziz-Zag effect (end swing) that occurs running long bogie coaches and locos such as the 201 Class (GM Co Co) through crossovers.

2005 Photos!

 

Edited March 26, 2022 by Mayner

[David Holman]

Nice one.

At the other end of the scale have just been reading the excellent Rails Through Tipperary, which has made me wonder how much space you'd need to model Limerick Junction? A Google search suggests the platform is 260 metres, about 800 feet in old money, but that is only 13x 60' coaches, so feel sure it must have been longer at some point?

  Add in the siding and the Limerick - Waterford line and you'd need a very large shed to do it in 4mm scale!

[Sean]

On 21/3/2022 at 4:20 PM, David Holman said:

Here are the track plans from the back two pages of the Freezer Booklet '60 Plans for Small Railways'. As you can see, most are 1.8 x 0.3m [6'x1' in old money], though one is about the same length as your proposal. Fairly sure they use Peco 60cm radius points.

 The short plan uses Y points though - something well worth considering as they are great space savers. Where possible though, it helps running quality to arrange points as a ladder, avoiding that reverse curve which is causing the problems. One thought is to have the turntable accessed from the middle siding, via a diamond over the track to the front siding.

 However, might be worth considering moving the turntable to form part of the run round loop, as below:

 There were several examples of this in Ireland, Foynes for one and each end of the Waterford & Tramore another. Harcourt St too, I think. My sketch is one of many attempts to redraw Castle Rackrent, Richard Chown's legendary 7mm broad gauge layout from the 1970s. Putting the turntable here saves a lot of space, because two points and the headhunt will occupy over 60cm of space in 4mm scale, whereas the turntable will only need 30cm at the most. 

 Mine is drawn for 7mm scale, but am sure you can play around with it to suit your own ideas. The two middle points are both Y format.

Hope that helps!

 

really cool idea about the turntable david, unfortunately I have built a hillside and permenant platforms on the layout now so any changes like this would be a major reconstruction. I can still make changes to the left hand side of things.

On 21/3/2022 at 10:31 PM, Mayner said:

It might be worth replacing the narrow couplings with Hornby R8267 Medium Width tension locks if you are committed to Hornby or Peco Settrack points, changing to the medium couplers should reduce problems coupling up and de-railing . https://www.gaugemasterretail.com/magento/hornby-R8267.html

Another potential problem is a bogie stock de-railing running through conventional crossovers, the reason CJ Freezer used left and right hand points to construct crossovers on the Minnories Suburban layout in 60 Plans for small railways. You seem to have avoided this on your layout and the diamond crossing arrangement has been used on full sized railways where space was tight

 

 

 

I am considering investing in hunt couplings, they seem to be a good solution with easy uncoupling but we shall see, im still messing with track ideas.

 

thankfully the crossover i have any bogie stock poses no issues, somthing extra to think about though.

went and set this one up as I already have all the track in stock so its just a matter of altering things on the baseboard. 

had a play with it and everything works and asthetically operations on the middle siding look for better than they did before.

it has however introduced a new trope of anything that parks in the loop will need to move out of the way for middle siding access. not ideal, workable but slightly annoying. 

so upon looking closer i soon seen a solution that allows the turntable to stay whilst allowing for the wider loop as discussed earlier.

 

now the middle siding has a nice straight drive in, and all points will work without issue, unfortunately you could park up a full lenght train in the middle siding before and with the new plan that will be no longer possible.

 

which brought me to this design,  seems to capture the best of all worlds so far,  middle siding is better now because it doesnt start on a turn, another great cause of coupling annoyance.

the bottom siding DOES, i am considering changes to  make it one set track longer, which would eliminate the last of the coupling annoyances. this would also mean a redesign of the street area, which has not been permenantly built just yet anyway. so it could well happen. 

 

the fuelling siding has been shortened but this is not a big deal. tankers are always removed after delivery and otherwise one or 2 locos can be parked up there.

[Mayner]

22 hours ago, David Holman said:

Nice one.

At the other end of the scale have just been reading the excellent Rails Through Tipperary, which has made me wonder how much space you'd need to model Limerick Junction? A Google search suggests the platform is 260 metres, about 800 feet in old money, but that is only 13x 60' coaches, so feel sure it must have been longer at some point?

  Add in the siding and the Limerick - Waterford line and you'd need a very large shed to do it in 4mm scale!

Now "The Junction" got me thinking Roy Jackson's Retford with its flat crossing of the ECML would be an excellent inspiration for a large 4mm Irish layout https://www.world-of-railways.co.uk/model-railways/retford-in-em-gauge/#:~:text=Retford is a large EM,)%3A East Coast main line

The Limerick Junction Island platform capable of handling Up and Down Mainline trains was/is? 1589' long. (Railway Lines of CIE & NIR Doyle and Hirsch 85) 12-14 trains of conventional (60') stock was once common at peak time, excursions and specials)

I could not resist doing an  Limerick Junction scheme based on Iain Rice's Carbon Crystal Crossing an American N gauge scheme in a 12X8' space which features a flat crossing between two railroads in the Mid West. The platforms scale out at 550mm just about long enough for a 4 coach train and loco. A OO gauge version of the scheme would take up a space of 24' X 16'

The main challenge with this type of layout is incorporating the 4 legs of the junction into the available space, I followed the Carbon Crystal Crossing example by treating the Dublin-Cork and Limerick Waterford lines as two self contained ovals with the Waterford Line crossing over or below the Cork Line in the hidden staging.

The staging on the Iain Rice scheme appears to have been intended to be accessed from the outside of the baseboard as opposed to the operating well, the secondary line included a raised section and a flyover with a byepass scenic section facing the operating well and the staging for the secondary line was at a higher level than the main staging. The reverse would work better in a restricted space, with the Limerick-Waterford staging at at a lower level than the Main Line staging

The scheme includes the main features at the Junction Keane's Points the connection between the WLWR and GSWR line the North and South Cabins, Water Tower and Loco Shed, the N24 overbridge acts as a view blocker at the south end, with the Loco Shed acting as a view blocker for the Waterford Line, exiting behind strategically placed trees at the Dublin and Limerick ends of the station. Rice used a scenic section byepass section as a view blocker 

 

Edited March 27, 2022 by Mayner

[StevieB]

A very good representation of a large station in a relatively small space. Has anyone done something similar for Waterford North, either its early, complex layout or the smaller, simpler version?

Stephen

[David Holman]

A clever design, John. Thought the quoted 260m was way too short! Full size, the Junction's platform would be 6.4m long - over 20 feet in old money, so guess it would need around 30x15 to do it full justice. Not unlike Retford really. A large barn in 7mm scale, but could probably fit in a single garage in 2mm. Any takers?

[Mayner]

21 hours ago, StevieB said:

A very good representation of a large station in a relatively small space. Has anyone done something similar for Waterford North, either its early, complex layout or the smaller, simpler version?

Stephen

I looked at Waterford North but did not get too far about 10 years ago, although over a mile and a quarter long Waterford breaks down into four distinct areas that could be modeled as self contained or part of a larger layout for someone that has the space. 

While the freight yard is very large and would take up a lot of space Waterford North, the Wharf Cabin and Abbey Junction are reasonably compact and could be modelled as individual self contained models.

 

Waterford North as a 4mm pointless cameo on an 8X2 Baseboard the platform at 1700mm should be capable of handling a 5 coach Mk3 set or 6 MK2 coaches.

The model could be used with cassette or traverser staging at one or both ends or as part of an oval.

Visually the Mount Misery rockface and gantry signal cabins are signature features. The Station Building is based on the present 1960s structure, the section of the Newrath Road in front of the platforms could be removed to improve the view of the trains or modelled as a 'cutway" showing the bridge structure.

Widening the baseboard to 2'6 would and opting for an earlier era open up the opportunity of modelling the river and Newrath Road as a single carriageway with the bridge structure cantilevered over the river. 

 

 

[David Holman]

Iain Rice coined the phrase 'bitsa layout' and have occasionally wondered about Waterford, especially with Mount Misery forming the back scene, as suggested. Have also thought the Waterford - Tramore line could make an interesting project, albeit with a fairly limited amount of stock. Seem to remember neither station had many points, because most of the tracks radiated from the two turntables.

[Galteemore]

W and T ideal for a scratch build 21mm or 36.75 scheme, where small amounts of stock are a bonus! Would be a nice project for time shifting eras too - with those wonderful single wheelers and quirkily modified J26s

[StevieB]

A little while ago I produced a plan incorporating all the main elements of the latter day Waterford North, namely three through roads plus two bays. Because it wasn’t an accurate copy of the prototype, I called it Port Lairge.

Stephen

[Mayner]

Another attempt at a compact mainly scenic 'watching trains go bye" layout Thomastown and the Nore Viaduct in a 12X8 space.

 

The 12X8 layout and fiddle/staging is designed to accommodate 10 42' wagons and single or double headed locos. The Kilkenny end of the station is in a shallow cutting before the section of line between Station Road and the Nore Bridge is on a high embankment before reaching higher ground on the east side of the river. 

The scheme would work well in N in a 12X8 space with scale length freight and passenger trains

 

 

Visually the layout is best viewed at eye level with the railway is on the horizon, the raising ground and fascia disguising the approaches to the staging at both ends.

The layout is designed around Peco Streamline track the Code 75 Bullhead would look very effective for a late 90s and the advent of CTC layout when the original GSWR bullhead track was replaced with CWR and Thomastown was closed as a blockpost. I used a minimum radius of 750mm in the fiddle yard and shallow cutting at the Kilkenny end of the station with a minimum 1m radius on the embankment/viaduct section. The trackwork in the fiddle yard and cutting is designed around Peco Code 75 (Flatbottom) Streamline track, the crossover in the cutting is based on using left hand curved points, the pointwork in the fiddle yard is based on using Medium Radius points.

The siding behind the station building was laid in light flatbottom rail on wooden sleepers a good 1st exercise in laying handlaid track either with Peco Code 75 or IL1 Code 60 Rail either glued or pinned to ply or stripwood sleepers of soldered to copper clad. The siding was in place until the station was closed as a Block Post in the late 1990s, the sidings at the south end of the station appear to have been removed at an earlier stage.

Open topped baseboard construction using either ply or the American L Girder construction is the only realistic for of baseboard construction for the section of layout that's mainly on an embankment, I have used 9,13 and 19mm ply for baseboard construction, using 19mm that was surplus to requirements from work.

I don't know if Thomastown closed to good traffic during the 1960s or 70s round of closures, but the siding seems to have been used for stabling P.W. machines and the occasional crippled wagon into the 1990s.

Train Services Locos and Stock.

The Waterford-Kilkenny is one of Irelands oldest Railway Line opened by the Waterford and Kilkenny in the 1840s, the original company was later incorporated in the the Waterford and Central of Ireland extended its line to Portloise and Mountmellick with the expectation of connecting with the Midland at Mullingar to feed cattle traffic to the GNR (I) at Cavan. The company was not very prosperous and had the reputation of having the worst 3rd Class coaches in Ireland when the company was absorbed by the GSWR in the early 1900s.

The line became an integral part of the GSWR after the GSWR takeover, the WCIR locomotives and stock quickly replaced by standard GSWR locos and stock and signalling and track upgraded to GSWR standards. In steam days main line trains appear to have been largely worked by Coey 4-4-0s introduced in the 1900s until replaced by diesel railcars in the early 1950s, goods by Woolwich Moguls, the GSWR 0-6-0 types and the humble J15.

The line via Portlaoise seems to have been considered the main line and Carlow considered the "Branch" until an austerity drive in 1963 when Portlaoise-Kilkenny was closed completely and Dublin-Waterford train frequency reduced form four to two trains each way daily!

Kingsbridge-Portlaoise-Waterford was one of the first lines to switch to diesel operating with the introduction of AEC Railcars in 1953?, the railcars initially operated with early 1900 GSWR Clerestory Dining Cars while Inchacore complete its first batch of 1950s Buffet Cars and Trailer stock. The B101 Sulzer locomotives appear to have been concentrated on Waterford during the 1960s working both passenger and goods trains on the Kilkenny line.

1960/70s developments.

The Cherryville-Waterford line became increasingly busy during the late 60s and early 70s with new freight flows and improvements in passenger traffic.

Bennettsbridge-Ballinacourthy Dolomite Trains. (1972-82?)

2--Trains Daily-----2 GMs (small)-----4w Hopper Wagons (similar to IRM Ballast) these were Ireland heaviest freight trains before the Tara-Alexandra Rd Zinc ore trains began operation.

Bell Lines Late 60s-1997)

CIE began operating Container Trains for Bell Lines during the late 1960s.

4w wagons were used before the introduction of the 42' wagons from 1973 onwards----IRM 4w Hopper Chassis?

1-2 Dublin-Waterford Bell line train plus "Specials' during weekend (2-3) specials sometimes operated North Wall-Waterford on Saturdays during the 1990s.

Liner-Operation replaced loose coupled goods trains  North Wall-Waterford 1977/78

Back to Back and Bogie Fertiliser Trains late 1960s onwards.

Palletised Cement Trains---------1976? onwards

Passenger:

Staff Snatchers installed for non-stop operation Cherryville Junction- Waterford West late 60s early 70s

Passenger train frequency increased from three to four daily with the introduction of Déise Express one of CIEs named trains of the 1960s/70s.

The Déise a "Supertrain" was short lived withdrawn as an economy measure following the 1973 oil crisis, the Waterford Line lost its Supertrain accommodation and a 4th passenger train (ironically a 001 hauled Supertrain) was not reinstated on the Waterford line until the late 1980s

 

 

 

 

 

[StevieB]

This forum is a veritable mine of information. Long may Mayner and JHB keep churning out their answers.

Stephen

[David Holman]

This would make a very fine project for someone and a great place for watching trains go by.

[Mayner]

On 3/4/2022 at 2:03 AM, Mayner said:

Another attempt at a compact mainly scenic 'watching trains go bye" layout Thomastown and the Nore Viaduct in a 12X8 space.

 

The 12X8 layout and fiddle/staging is designed to accommodate 10 42' wagons and single or double headed locos. The Kilkenny end of the station is in a shallow cutting before the section of line between Station Road and the Nore Bridge is on a high embankment before reaching higher ground on the east side of the river. 

The scheme would work well in N in a 12X8 space with scale length freight and passenger trains

 

 

Mainly intended for watching trains go bye with IRM 001 on the Bell Liners and MM141s/181s on the Dolomite, if I ever have to give up on kit or scratch building

Another look at Thomastown, I don't seem to have any photos of the station and couldn't figure out how to open Google Earth when I was preparing the drafting the scheme.

The embankments are lower than I first thought, but still works visually with the embankment forming the horizon as the railway crosses a wide river valley, backscene very much 'Big Sky" with pastureland and trees on the horizon.

In certain respects modelling a railway on the Central Plain is not unlike the American Prairie or East Anglia in the main feature is sky in the absence of hills or mountains.

The station on a gentle curve is partially in a cutting and on embankment.

The goods siding appears to have been on the station side of the loading bank (at one time included a goods shed), the driveway on the left may have been the cart road.

The Waterford and Kilkenny station building has some interesting stone features, the valley gutter and gable between the two sections of the roof appears unusual.

Some interesting features at the Railway Road underbridge, the gateway appears to be intended for railway workers accessing the embankment, the field on the station side (possibly used for the Station Masters horse in GSWR/GSR days!)  is accessed by a normal wrought iron gate

[Irishswissernie]

I took some video at Thomastown on 14 October 2003. This was when the Beets were being diverted via Kildare due to the Cement train crashing through the viaduct at Cahir. I caught the train from Waterford to Thomastown hoping to video a beet empty set  from the bridge at the north end. The station and surrounding area was totally deserted although in the field by the over bridge was a herd of cows  who seemed quite interested in my company especially when they learnt that these strange new trains were carrying sugar beet which probably tasted rather like sweet turnips. After what seemed like an hour but was probably nearer 3 hours a train materialised, unfortunately for the cows (but not for me) it was empty logs. 

There are some views of the station yard and also the appalling state of the running line. Its frightening to realise that its approaching 20 years ago!

 

[jhb171achill]

In terms of design overall, especially for a small or cramped space, the attached serves well.

Apart from Dugort Harbour, one of my long term plans is a small portable shunting layout based on one of my other interests, the South African Railways. One diesel loco, one steam, two carriages, two brake vans and seven wagons, and that's it.

It's meant represent the sort of meandering very rural line seen across the southern part of the African continent, mostly built in the 1910-25 period, and lasting until the 1990s still with mostly or entirely steam haulage. The most minimalistic train service imaginable - three mixed trains a week, with a loco, coach and a few wagons.

This same concept can be used for a Fenit, Castleisland or Ardee style operation, using an "A", a 141, a brake van and some "H" vans, or include a Loughrea-style one-coach passenger train.

When planning the South African terminus with space as an absolute premium, I opted for this design. It's actually all you need. Loco and train  arrives from fiddle yard, and one siding is all that's needed to shunt two or three trucks in and take away a similar number, while possibly also changing locos. For a portable thing, even for an exhibition, little more is strictly necessary.

This plan is actually reminiscent of a number of termini, as per many of the plans shown above; it works as well for very rural dust-road South Africa as it does rainy stone-walled west of Ireland; albeit with drastically different scenery!

 

Edited April 6, 2022 by jhb171achill

[jhb171achill]

For a more unusual approach, 1950's CIE wasn't the only world with weed-grown branch lines, which only came to life in the beet, pilgrimage or GAA season - or the monthly cattle fair.

In the 1940s and 1950s many rural NCC locations were the same. The above idea can be adopted to contain the very unique designs of traditional NCC wagon stock, with a repainted LMS 4.4.0 and two standard LMS coaches as ready to run loco & passenger stock. Some years ago, Nelson Jackson posted here some truly excellent scratch-built NCC wagons....... 

We've had places like the SLNCR and BCDR covered by several of our luminaries here - anyone fancy a mini-Dungiven or Draperstown?

[StevieB]

An interesting one would be Claremorris South, a double ended terminus.

Stephen

[Mayner]

Ballywilliam County Wexford about the minimum in terms of double ended terminus stations.

The Bagenalstown and Wexford started building southwards towards the Wexford border in the early 1850s until the money ran out and the company went bankrupt upon reaching Ballywilliam in 1864, additional finance appears to have been arranged and the line extended eastwards to connect with the DWWR at Macmine Junction in 1870. 

The GSWR and DWWR divided the line at Ballywilliam each company buying its respective section, this arrangement effectively prevented the GSWR from competing with the DWWR for Dublin-Wexford traffic. The DWWR built a branch from Palace East to New Ross but continued to operate Palace East to Ballywilliam until the GSWR agreed to take over that section of line possibly as part of the horsetrading in connection construction of the Waterford-Rosslare Line, (DSER access to Waterford & running powers to Limerick).

JHBs comments about short workings between New Ross-Palace East and Ballywilliam in the 1894 DWWR timetable prompted me to look at the station layout and timetable to try and figure out the actual workings of the timetable.

Although there were two return passenger trains daily between Bagenalstown and Palace East in the 1894 timetable the GSWR and DWWR appear to have operated the line as two separate branch lines with passengers changing trains with a wait of between 5 and 44 minutes between connections at Ballywilliam. The GSWR worked its section of the line with two out and back workings from Bagenalstown that could be worked comfortably with a single trains set and crew (Pre-8hr day!)

The DWWR worked its section of the line with a loco based at New Ross which started the day with a New Ross-Palace East Mixed before working a shuttle service of passenger and mixed trains between Palace East and Ballywilliam before returning to New Ross on a late afternoon mixed again likely to have been worked by a single train crew, the DWWR crew likely spending more of their time shunting, running round and coupling up than actually running.

Operating a double ended terminus with a single platform, single run-round loop and very limited siding space would have been challenging especially at times when both GSWR and DWWR trains were scheduled to be in the station

The station layout with the crossover (with diamond crossing) from the Loop to the Goods Yard appears to be a GSWR feature also used at Ferbane on the Clara Banagher Branch.

The MGWR and GNR(I) considered taking over the SLNCR (when the company was bankrupt) ceasing to operate it as a through route and  operating Enniskillen-Manorhamilton and Manorhamilton-Carrignagat Junction as two separate branchline.

The SLNCR was bailed out by local interests to prevent the Midland establishing a monopoly in Sligo.