Mol_PMB Posted January 2 Author Posted January 2 Just now, jhb171achill said: It’s the 1960s versions I would want, rather than the post-1972 shaded ones. Do those exist? No, not yet. Which livery? Green? Black? BnT? Which class? I have very recently done some artwork for green A11, as a trial. Top of this sheet. I am experimenting with using partially translucent white so the green underneath shows through to give an Eau-de-Nil effect. It may or may not work. With all my loco numbers, I'm creating the numbers and letters individually to match the CIE shapes - I'm not just using a standard font. It takes time! I've done the green numbers for the E class, and the supertrain-livery white/black and white numbers, but every set of digits is a different shape! Even white numbers for the black E class are a different shape from the green numbers on a silver E class...
jhb171achill Posted January 2 Posted January 2 7 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said: No, not yet. Which livery? Green? Black? BnT? Which class? I have very recently done some artwork for green A11, as a trial. Top of this sheet. I am experimenting with using partially translucent white so the green underneath shows through to give an Eau-de-Nil effect. It may or may not work. With all my loco numbers, I'm creating the numbers and letters individually to match the CIE shapes - I'm not just using a standard font. It takes time! I've done the green numbers for the E class, and the supertrain-livery white/black and white numbers, but every set of digits is a different shape! Even white numbers for the black E class are a different shape from the green numbers on a silver E class... Black and Tan livery, B141 class.
Mol_PMB Posted January 2 Author Posted January 2 4 minutes ago, jhb171achill said: Black and Tan livery, B141 class. Ah, OK, that's not a topic I have studied in detail as I don't have any locos in that livery. They may, or may not, be the same as the black livery A class which I do need to do the artwork for. I wouldn't be at all surprised if there are two different fonts used, one by EMD as-delivered, and one by Inchicore when they were repainted (and gained their roundels)
jhb171achill Posted January 2 Posted January 2 1 hour ago, Mol_PMB said: Ah, OK, that's not a topic I have studied in detail as I don't have any locos in that livery. They may, or may not, be the same as the black livery A class which I do need to do the artwork for. I wouldn't be at all surprised if there are two different fonts used, one by EMD as-delivered, and one by Inchicore when they were repainted (and gained their roundels) They were the same, which makes life somewhat easier!
Mol_PMB Posted January 3 Author Posted January 3 Today the coach roof has been completed and etch primed, while the ends have been detailed using odds and sods of wire, split pins etc. I need to try and work out the assembly sequence of sides and ends, including whether to solder them together before painting. The instructions are confusing on this matter. 8
Tullygrainey Posted January 3 Posted January 3 I think solder before paint might be the better option. In my experience, the edge to edge nature of the joins makes it difficult to do neatly, so needing an element of fibreglass brush work to tidy up afterwards. Trying to avoid damaging an already applied paint job would make that job even harder. But.... from the evidence above, your soldering is very tidy so maybe it's not a problem. Good luck with it, whatever order you decide on. 1
Mol_PMB Posted January 3 Author Posted January 3 14 minutes ago, Tullygrainey said: I think solder before paint might be the better option. In my experience, the edge to edge nature of the joins makes it difficult to do neatly, so needing an element of fibreglass brush work to tidy up afterwards. Trying to avoid damaging an already applied paint job would make that job even harder. But.... from the evidence above, your soldering is very tidy so maybe it's not a problem. Good luck with it, whatever order you decide on. Thanks for the advice. I've just done a dry-run and also studied Eoin's build again (he soldered before painting too). The instructions seem to recommend keeping the parts separate until painted, but I've decided to follow your advice and Eoin's method and solder first. Just about to start that... 4 1
Mol_PMB Posted January 3 Author Posted January 3 The body is now all soldered together and I seem to have achieved something that is square, neat, and fits the chassis and the roof. Success! It's having an ultrasonic bath now, and will get primed tomorrow. I haven't yet thought much about the interior - I'll need to make some partitions and find some suitable seating. As for interior colours, I'm unsure. The instructions say dark brown varnished wood, but my experience of coaches of this era (places like the Ffestiniog and the Isle of Man) is that they were usually scumbled in a light yellow-brown, or painted cream. The lighting was gloomy enough so a pale interior colour was preferred. For seating, the instructions say blue cloth or red leather for first class, brown 'York Terry' (whatever that is) for second class, and no colour information given for thirds. These were built as first/second composites so there should be some upholstery throughout. Of course there are also some doorways between the first class and the toilets to consider. There aren't many colour photos of 6-wheelers in service, and even fewer where the interior is visible. This MGWR all-first from Ernie shows a brownish-green upholstery; above the seat backs there's a hint of some framed photos or maps? This GSWR first might have the same upholstery as the one illustrated above. Are the light rectangles we see actually mirrors reflecting daylight from the opposite side windows? https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511622569 These MGWR seconds seem to have red leather in the smoking compartments, a darker cloth in the others, and a generally cream-coloured interior (painted cream or maybe a pale scumble): This MGWR third is pretty convincingly cream for the interior window pillars, but we can't see much else of the interior: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510409677 Looking at photos of the surviving MGWR coaches, they seem to have the remains of cream interior paint too. As do Eoin's models. Bit of a theme developing here... 2
Mol_PMB Posted January 3 Author Posted January 3 A quick blast with the laser and I have some partitions, with picture frames for the first class: The tabs at top and bottom fit into the slots in the brass, and once clipped into place they are a firm fit: 7
jhb171achill Posted January 3 Posted January 3 (edited) 7 hours ago, Mol_PMB said: The body is now all soldered together and I seem to have achieved something that is square, neat, and fits the chassis and the roof. Success! It's having an ultrasonic bath now, and will get primed tomorrow. I haven't yet thought much about the interior - I'll need to make some partitions and find some suitable seating. As for interior colours, I'm unsure. The instructions say dark brown varnished wood, but my experience of coaches of this era (places like the Ffestiniog and the Isle of Man) is that they were usually scumbled in a light yellow-brown, or painted cream. The lighting was gloomy enough so a pale interior colour was preferred. For seating, the instructions say blue cloth or red leather for first class, brown 'York Terry' (whatever that is) for second class, and no colour information given for thirds. These were built as first/second composites so there should be some upholstery throughout. Of course there are also some doorways between the first class and the toilets to consider. There aren't many colour photos of 6-wheelers in service, and even fewer where the interior is visible. This MGWR all-first from Ernie shows a brownish-green upholstery; above the seat backs there's a hint of some framed photos or maps? This GSWR first might have the same upholstery as the one illustrated above. Are the light rectangles we see actually mirrors reflecting daylight from the opposite side windows? https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511622569 These MGWR seconds seem to have red leather in the smoking compartments, a darker cloth in the others, and a generally cream-coloured interior (painted cream or maybe a pale scumble): This MGWR third is pretty convincingly cream for the interior window pillars, but we can't see much else of the interior: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510409677 Looking at photos of the surviving MGWR coaches, they seem to have the remains of cream interior paint too. As do Eoin's models. Bit of a theme developing here... Standard internal painting for old six-wheelers by CIE days, and probably in GSR days too, was cream above waist level, white ceilings, and a mid-brown lower. This applied to the insides of doors too. Upholstery for third / second class was (latterly, anyway) red, though second might have blue in an earlier period. First class upholstery as seen clearly in one of the photos above was a closely intertwined floral pattern, olive green leaf designs and black and green background to it being prominent. Interesting to note the Cusack second pictured above (one of two) hyas its end sheeted over - these were wooden panelling in standard type of style when built. I would not at all be surprised if the other end remained in original condition, such were the individual quirks of survivors in those days! The red upholstery in seconds was cloth rather than leather, and had a tiny black fleck through it. I had a piece of it years ago but it's long gone unfortunately... Edited January 4 by jhb171achill 1 2
Mol_PMB Posted January 3 Author Posted January 3 2 minutes ago, jhb171achill said: Standard internal painting for old six-wheelers by CIE days, and probably in GSR days too, was cream above waist level, white ceilings, and a mid-brown lower. This applied to the insides of doors too. Upholstery for third / second class was (latterly, anyway) red, though second might have blue in an earlier period. First class upholstery as seen clearly in one of the photos above was a closely intertwined floral pattern, olive green leaf designs and black and green background to it being prominent. Interesting to note the Cusack second pictured above (one of two) hyas its end sheeted over - these were wooden panelling in standard type of style when built. I would not at all be surprised if the other end remained in original condition, such were the individual quirks of survivors in those days! Perfect, many thanks JHB for the info. That's what I'll paint then. The olive green leaf design will be fun to represent! Do you recall how the smoking compartments were typically arranged? It looks like most carriages originally had one smoking compartment marked with etched window glass, but later more compartments were designated for smoking using labels advertising "Wills's Gold Leaf". For example this former MGWR first seems to have gone from 1 smoking to 3 smoking: And this MGWR lav compo has one end smoking: Were Ladies compartments still in existence in CIE days? Or is this etching in the window long-obselete: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508531276
jhb171achill Posted January 3 Posted January 3 1 hour ago, Mol_PMB said: Perfect, many thanks JHB for the info. That's what I'll paint then. The olive green leaf design will be fun to represent! Do you recall how the smoking compartments were typically arranged? It looks like most carriages originally had one smoking compartment marked with etched window glass, but later more compartments were designated for smoking using labels advertising "Wills's Gold Leaf". For example this former MGWR first seems to have gone from 1 smoking to 3 smoking: And this MGWR lav compo has one end smoking: Were Ladies compartments still in existence in CIE days? Or is this etching in the window long-obselete: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508531276 “Ladies” compartments were very long obsolete even by GSR times. As for smoking compartments, probably no two ended up the same! I remember seeing an old (bogie) non-corridor out of use somewhere in the 70s which had a smoking window pane on one side, plain on the other! 1
Mol_PMB Posted January 4 Author Posted January 4 At the start of my 2-week holiday I had great ambitions for modelling progress, hoping to regauge 2 locos, build 2 wagons and 2 coach kits, and a long list of items on the layout. Well, it hasn't quite turned out like that, partly because everything has taken longer than expected, and partly because I've spent more time with friends over the holiday period, rather than home alone. That is definitely a positive, even if it means a bit less progress on the trainset. Progress will now slow further as I return to work tomorrow. Anyway, I'm now in a position of having got 1 loco, 1 wagon and 1 carriage each about 80% done, and a few of the layout jobs done. 156, the bitumen tank and the 6-wheel coach are all within sight of completion. This morning I worked on the tank wagon's ladders (from the kit) and then in an excess of enthusiasm I decided to replace the Bachmann catwalk with a more accurate one made from offcuts of wire and sprue. That's now done, but there are still a few more details to complete on the tank and its underframe before it can visit the paint shop. This afternoon it has been warm enough to paint, so the coach body is now primed and the roof is black. I've also done the first few panels of my 'colour chart of greens' to help me choose the right paint for my 6-wheel coach. More on this next week. 8
Tullygrainey Posted January 4 Posted January 4 In a previous post you mentioned looking for seats for your 6 wheel coaches Paul. I got these from Slater's 4mm range recently. Enough in one packet for 12 bench seats. 3
Mol_PMB Posted January 4 Author Posted January 4 7 minutes ago, Tullygrainey said: In a previous post you mentioned looking for seats for your 6 wheel coaches Paul. I got these from Slater's 4mm range recently. Enough in one packet for 12 bench seats. Ah, thanks - they look good. I've already ordered a pack of the Ratio extruded seating but what you've got may be better. Or perhaps it would be good to use different shapes of seat for each class? 1 1
Mol_PMB Posted January 8 Author Posted January 8 The 6-wheel coach is inching towards completion. I'm hoping that it will all come together at the weekend. I just realised that I missed the roof out of the photo - that's currently physically complete and painted black. 12
Mol_PMB Posted January 8 Author Posted January 8 I acquired this coach kit secondhand from @Mike 84C, and I've really enjoyed building it. He also sold me a 6-compartment third, and I have plans to get some replacement sides etched for that and to build it as a full brake. Now, I've had my arm lightly twisted by @Georgeconna (it didn't take much twisting, I'm a pushover) to buy his secondhand kit for a 6-compartment third as well. This is all generally cheaper, quicker and easier than buying them new! As yet I haven't decided whether to build George's kit as a 6-compartment third (which could have 6 or 4 wheels - see my thread here https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/19735-6-wheel-coaches-reduced-to-4-wheels-when-and-why/ ) or to draw up another set of sides to be custom etched to represent a type not available from SSM. This could include a luggage composite or a different type of brake third, or potentially if I draw new ends as well it could be one of the later, high-roof types of full brake. Another option which appeals would be to model a departmental sleeping car. Considering that I have also committed to a couple of MGWR 6-wheel coaches from Alphagraphix I'm well on the way to a Cork region excursion train that is far too long for my layout! 3
jhb171achill Posted January 8 Posted January 8 1 hour ago, Mol_PMB said: I acquired this coach kit secondhand from @Mike 84C, and I've really enjoyed building it. He also sold me a 6-compartment third, and I have plans to get some replacement sides etched for that and to build it as a full brake. Now, I've had my arm lightly twisted by @Georgeconna (it didn't take much twisting, I'm a pushover) to buy his secondhand kit for a 6-compartment third as well. This is all generally cheaper, quicker and easier than buying them new! As yet I haven't decided whether to build George's kit as a 6-compartment third (which could have 6 or 4 wheels - see my thread here https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/19735-6-wheel-coaches-reduced-to-4-wheels-when-and-why/ ) or to draw up another set of sides to be custom etched to represent a type not available from SSM. This could include a luggage composite or a different type of brake third, or potentially if I draw new ends as well it could be one of the later, high-roof types of full brake. Another option which appeals would be to model a departmental sleeping car. Considering that I have also committed to a couple of MGWR 6-wheel coaches from Alphagraphix I'm well on the way to a Cork region excursion train that is far too long for my layout! I’m the same! So far I’ve about 12 six-wheelers and the makings of another couple of freelance ones….! 3
Mol_PMB Posted January 9 Author Posted January 9 A trial assembly of the painted parts of the coach this evening. I still need to do some weathering, and add interiors, glazing and couplings. The close-up images cruelly show the imperfections. Some weathering needed! In general I'm pleased with it so far, and the green feels just right. Thanks to @Mike 84C for the kit and the green paint suggestion! 10 1
Mol_PMB Posted January 9 Author Posted January 9 Meanwhile, work continues on the replacement sides for the two 6-compartment thirds, which are going to become a full brake and a sleeping car. I'll add some roof details to the etch too for these. My other passenger coach will hopefully be an Alphagraphix MGWR third. 7
Colonel Posted January 10 Posted January 10 Atmosphere is building and low level shots through the trees looking very effective, even now. 2 1
Mol_PMB Posted January 10 Author Posted January 10 I am re-learning the art of glazing. An absolutely flat surface with no debris, some graph paper to guide the dimensions, something diamond-tipped to score the line, and then carefully snap along the line. Be very wary of any little broken bits as they are extremely sharp. And expect a wastage rate of at least 50%. But I'm getting there. I'll give the windows a clean in IPA before gluing them into the carriage. 1
jhb171achill Posted January 10 Posted January 10 19 hours ago, Mol_PMB said: A trial assembly of the painted parts of the coach this evening. I still need to do some weathering, and add interiors, glazing and couplings. The close-up images cruelly show the imperfections. Some weathering needed! In general I'm pleased with it so far, and the green feels just right. Thanks to @Mike 84C for the kit and the green paint suggestion! Look REALLY well! 1
Mol_PMB Posted January 10 Author Posted January 10 Glazing and seats now fitted, and smoking labels on the windows of two compartments. i decided not to fit out the interiors of the toilet compartments, as you can’t see through the opaque plastic windows or the tiny gap above them. All the other windows are proper glass. Underframe and roof have been weathered and the last major job is weathering the ends. I have not thought about passengers. 13
jhb171achill Posted January 10 Posted January 10 7 hours ago, Mol_PMB said: I have not thought about passengers. Nor did the GSWR, with hard seats originally in 3rd class! (Unless those passengers were FIRST class!) SUPERB job on that carriage! 1
Mol_PMB Posted January 11 Author Posted January 11 The GSWR 6-wheel lavatory composite is considered finished, for now. Closeup of the end: Comparison with a Genesis 6-wheeler: And with my two other green vehicles: There are a couple of niggles, such as the smoking signs being too prominent, a lack of passengers and no steam heating pipes. I may revisit those in due course. I can't yet put it into passenger service, because I don't yet have a passenger brake van. As Leslie points out over in this thread, they are essential: https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/19742-tin-vans-heating-vans-please/ However, I do have a couple of John Mayne's kits in the queue, and perhaps a tin van should be my next project? First though, I need to finish off the tar bitumen tanker which has also made some progress today. I have fitted attachments to connect the tank and the underframe, and also to fit the couplings. I've also fitted the ladders and the steam pipework. And I've made the lettering boards for each side of the tank. There's still some underframe detailing to attend to before this is ready for the paintshop. Hopefully I'll get it physically complete in the coming week. 12
Mol_PMB Posted January 17 Author Posted January 17 Some of my time this week has been spent building a tin van from one of @Mayner's kits. It's not yet complete but is starting to look the part and makes an interesting contrast to the old 6-wheel coach: Another ebay purchase arrived this week - an old CIE document from Christmas 1959. This is what I would describe as a 'weekly operating notice' although it does not carry that title and it covers a 2-week period. 56 pages in total, it contains lots of detail about special trains, Christmas timetable alterations, even items of goods lost and found. The arrangements for livestock fairs are particularly interesting though I haven't quite decoded them all yet. Here's 2 of the 6 pages devoted to livestock traffic arrangements, both rail and road: Would a scan of this document be of interest to others? With 56 pages it would take a while to do - let me know. 7 1
Mol_PMB Posted January 18 Author Posted January 18 Some more progress on the tin van, which is approaching the stage where I've done most of what's in the instructions and I am adding extras. Some of these vans had chunky self-contained buffers as provided in the kit, but I think I'm going to save them for a bogie coach, and instead fit the spindly buffers that some of the tin vans had. I have some in stock. I'm also planning some interior detailing once I can confirm what the interior looked like. 9
Mol_PMB Posted January 19 Author Posted January 19 I am gradually making progress on the artwork for alternative sides and rooves for the SSM GSWR 6-wheelers. Another few hours needed on this and then I can send it for etching. 3
Mol_PMB Posted Friday at 17:18 Author Posted Friday at 17:18 The tin luggage van is now ready for a final clean-up and a coat of etch primer. I've added some extra details such as the body support brackets and made some grilles to cover one of the door windows each side. On the other door with an opening droplight I have made a droplight frame. Extra details on the underframe include a simplified representation of the brake rigging, and a dynamo with the visible part of its belt. I've also modified the spring detailing. After the primer coat, I'll review whether the half-round beading I've added on the sides is OK or too proud. It may benefit from a bit of rubbing down to reduce its thickness. I am also considering using rivet transfers to give some more texture on the sides. In reality I think these were nearly flush but after a bit of weathering they tended to become quite obvious as seen in Ernie's photos below: 7 1
popeye Posted Friday at 19:22 Posted Friday at 19:22 Great work, so much fiddly bits. There seems to be grills on all of the windows which might look better done with wire instead of flat brass. 1
Mol_PMB Posted Friday at 19:34 Author Posted Friday at 19:34 2 minutes ago, popeye said: Great work, so much fiddly bits. There seems to be grills on all of the windows which might look better done with wire instead of flat brass. Yes, the kit provides an etch for the grilles on the main side windows. It is flat brass and I agree it might be better done with wire. On the other hand, getting them all evenly spaced would be hard work and uneven wire grille might be worse than flat brass. I suspect that once the windows are glazed it won't be so easy to see the shape of the bars. I'm keeping the grilles as separate parts for now so I can make that decision later. The extra small grilles I made are for the left-hand door on each side. These also had grilles in reality but they are not provided in the kit. The right-hand door on each side had a droplight for the guard to look out of, so there wasn't a grille. I've added the droplight surround instead so that the glass is set back a fraction of a mm compared to the adjacent door. One of my droplights is partly open. My next challenge is the eau-de-nil transfers, especially the 'GUARD' lettering. It's not a colour that's easily printed with an ALPS printer even with multiple layers. Railtec have the right colour but usually seem to busy to do custom work, even though they already have suitable artwork in white (e.g. for the BGSVs). We could do with 2" (0.66mm) lining in eau-de-nil too. 1
popeye Posted Friday at 20:21 Posted Friday at 20:21 If you do the grills with fine wire blackened they won't be so visible. And if you paint the van silver you won't need eau- de-nil transfers.
Mol_PMB Posted Friday at 20:29 Author Posted Friday at 20:29 4 minutes ago, popeye said: If you do the grills with fine wire blackened they won't be so visible. And if you paint the van silver you won't need eau- de-nil transfers. I am going to paint the van silver. I think that these vans did have eau-de-nil lettering. But if there’s clear evidence otherwise please let me know. I am aware that some of the other silver vehicles had red lettering, including some of the heating vans. 1
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