"Voiding the Warranty" - Mol's experiments in 21mm gauge

[Mol_PMB]

It was a significant birthday for me in March, and with my IRM deliveries further delayed I was looking for something to treat myself to. 
I had a bit of an eBay ‘accident’ and ended up with two birthday presents, both of which have been delivered today:

I’m not sure how I can justify either of these appearing at Quartertown Mill!

The silver A fits my present modelling theme better than the 071, but the latter is more in tune with my childhood memories. Both are lovely models and are in pristine condition.

[Mol_PMB]

Well I'd read somewhere that A class were prohibited from the Quartertown Mill branch, but obviously not by the 1970s:

0:43 to 1:00 or thereabouts, a snippet of shunting at Quartertown. It looks like the train is just 2 bitumen tanks and a brake van.

Very useful though frustratingly short and with little of the surroundings in shot, but a whole lot better than nothing!

 

[Mol_PMB]

Recently I have been continuing my CIE carriage research. Having already put the 1960s and 1970s carriage registers into a spreadsheet thanks to forum members on here providing copies of their documents, I am now extending the data back into the 1950s and late 1940s thanks to the IRRS records. 
There’s a lot to do here but I’m working through it. I curse the MGWR for their numbering policy with several different coaches having the same number!

I think, with the info I’ve got, I can produce a complete all-time listing of CIE vacuum braked 5’3” gauge carriages. I will be going to the IRRS archives in Dublin later this month to fill any gaps, I hope. Bear with me… 

[Westcorkrailway]

22 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

Well I'd read somewhere that A class were prohibited from the Quartertown Mill branch, but obviously not by the 1970s:

0:43 to 1:00 or thereabouts, a snippet of shunting at Quartertown. It looks like the train is just 2 bitumen tanks and a brake van.

Very useful though frustratingly short and with little of the surroundings in shot, but a whole lot better than nothing!

 

There is probably more of the mill somehere, you just have to wait for it to be released!

[Mol_PMB]

Inspired by Alan's build of a J26, I have dug my kit out of the stash and I'm going to build mine too.

https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/13383-alans-workbench/page/20/#findComment-278367

Mine is also an old kit acquired secondhand, and may not be entirely complete. 

At the very least I need motor, gearbox and some extra chassis bits, as well as tube for the boiler, so I have ordered those. That means I can't start the chassis but I can build the body, if only I can make a decision on which prototype to make!

My interests are Cork/Kerry around 1960, and that effectively limits me to the following locos:

• 552, a regular on the Timoleague and Courtmacsherry line prior to closure, and then shunted around Cork until withdrawn in 1963. 
• 557, a regular shunting around Cork and sometimes on the T&C, withdrawn in 1959.
• 559, which appears in some photos around Tralee around 1960, withdrawn that year.
• 560, which spent much of its life on the Waterford & Tramore but moved to Tralee by 1957, also working in Cork until withdrawn in 1963.

In reality they probably all moved around in the Cork/Kerry region and the number of times each was photographed at a particular place was more to do with when the railtours arrived! There are fewer photos of 559 than the other three, but there are enough good ones to confirm the details.

A photo of each thanks to Ernie and 'Ingy the Wingy':

 

As you can see from the photos, there were detail differences between all of them, including:

• Rear of cab and bunker: 557 and 559 standard, 552 raised bunker, 560 W&T enlarged cab
• Safety valve bonnet: 552 and 560 oval, 559 round, 557 absent
• Buffers: 552, 557, 560 standard tapered, 559 large parallel
• Numbers: 557 and 560 plates, 552 and 559 painted
• Smokebox handrails: all four locos have different arrangements
• Footplate valances: 560 has W&T variant, others standard
• Cab roof vent: on 559 only
• Bars protecting rear spectacles: on 559 only
• Rivets: a whole host of differences once you start looking closely

So, which do I pick? 

560 is the logical choice as it lasted the longest, and there are many photos of it in Cork and Kerry (including Fenit) but it's highly non-standard with the W&T modifications, and not as attractive as the others. I think the work-weary 559 is the most attractive, even if there are fewer photos of it.

Hmmm. I'll have to make a decision early in the build as there are so many differences between them. 

[Galteemore]

559 gets my vote. Those W and T cabs must have been comfy but are aesthetically horrible ! 

[Westcorkrailway]

I can Probobly dig out infinite images of 552 and 559 in West Cork, so my completely unbiased vote goes to…

Edited April 4 by Westcorkrailway

[Mol_PMB]

5 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

I can Probobly dig out infinite images of 552 and 559 in West Cork, so my completely unbiased vote goes to…

If you can find more pics of 559, I'd like to see them. I found plenty of 552 and 557 in West Cork but none of 559 down there.

At present I have only found three of them, the colour one above is at Fenit 0n 27 April 1960, and the IRRS image linked below is at Tralee on 22 August 1960:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54252113662

Plus the one without date or location, but it's a nice clear view:

 

[Mol_PMB]

Step 1, starting randomly in the middle of the instructions. Side tanks:

With a bit of care to get everything square, these went together well. 

[Mol_PMB]

Continuing to work on the body, I next made the bunker, which was not so easy to get everything square and aligned. I also found I had to slightly reduce the width of the bunker rear, maybe by 0.5mm, to better match the upper valance and the cab width. Etched kits have come a long way since this was designed! But I succeeded:

Then I added the cabside beading, which the instructions admit is fiddly!

Then I could judge the correct relative spacing of the bunker and the tanks, based on the footplate and the cab doorways. Having done that, I used 1mm square brass section to connect the tanks and bunker into one unit. Again, this took a bit of adjustment to get everything square:

Here's the cab loosely placed on it. The idea is that the cab, bunker and tanks will all be soldered together, but will not be soldered to the footplate or boiler which will be separate sub-assemblies.

My next step is to modify the cab back to fit the window bars, before any further assembly.

 

Edited April 5 by Mol_PMB
clarification of modification.

[Tullygrainey]

2 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

Continuing to work on the body, I next made the bunker, which was not so easy to get everything square and aligned. Etched kits have come a long way since this was designed! But I succeeded:

Then I added the cabside beading, which the instructions admit is fiddly!

Then I could judge the correct relative spacing of the bunker and the tanks, based on the footplate and the cab doorways. Having done that, I used 1mm square brass section to connect the tanks and bunker into one unit. Again, this took a bit of adjustment to get everything square:

Here's the cab loosely placed on it. The idea is that the cab, bunker and tanks will all be soldered together, but will not be soldered to the footplate or boiler which will be separate sub-assemblies.

My next step is to modify the cab back to fit the window bars, before any further assembly.

 

That's an immaculate job Paul. Really neat and tidy and obviously built with invisible solder  . I haven't done any of this yet so I'm studying form here. Good luck with the build. You've made a flying start.

Kieran and I have settled on 562.

Alan

[Mol_PMB]

Just now, Tullygrainey said:

That's an immaculate job Paul. Really neat and tidy and obviously built with invisible solder  . I haven't done any of this yet so I'm studying form here. Good luck with the build. You've made a flying start.

Kieran and I have settled on 562.

Alan

Yours is looking great too, and it works! Which is a big step ahead of mine. 

I've decided on 559 and so I've been working on the window bars.

 

The excess will be trimmed off once the cab back is soldered in place. They're not perfectly straight, but no worse than the real thing!

562 is a nice one too, good choice. Seen here at Sligo:

 

[Tullygrainey]

That's an inspired technique for making window bars. Probably unwise to show you this now you've done the job but for future reference...

an old Mainly Trains etch, available from Wizard Models

It wouldn't cover the type of bars on the J26 anyway

Edited April 4 by Tullygrainey

[Mol_PMB]

Last bits done for tonight.

Firstly, some extra bits for the tanks.

When I trial-fitted the cab it looked like there was a small gap between it and the tank tops, if the cab was to be centred on the doorways. So I cut two short lengths of tiny brass T-section to go at the back of the tanks to fill the gap and give the impression of a reinforcing angle. 

Also, the inner edge of the tank has a lip on it, not quite as tall as the outer beaded edge. You can see it in Ernie's photo below. So I used some offcuts of etch fret (from a different kit, thinner brass).

When soldered in place, they looked like this:

I then found I had to file away some of the angle to get the cab to seat correctly! I should have used something thinner! Never mind.

Here's the cab soldered in place:

And from the back, with the window bars now trimmed back:

There's one thing I should have done before fitting the cab, which is to solder a floor plate in the bunker bottom. I can add it later, it will just be a bit more awkward to solder. That floor plate will have a hole in it and a nut soldered above, directly above the bolt hole in the footplate. So the same bolt that holds the chassis to the footplate will also hold the bunker. 

I will also put some brackets inside the front of the tanks, one each side, so that I can hold them down to the footplate. 

[Galteemore]

Nice work. Wish I’d thought of that window bar idea when doing my Sligo tank ! 

[Colonel]

Fine work! All sorts of interesting ideas and techniques here that are well worth considering for future projects. Just need to remember to check this thread first when the time comes...

[Mol_PMB]

A couple of photos showing the arrangements for bolting the superstructure to the footplate. 

With a floor and front to the bunker this has now become a very strong and rigid structure. 

The tiebar between the fronts of the tanks is temporary, it will foul the boiler.
 

[Mol_PMB]

Taking advice and inspiration from Alan's parallel thread (and using a similar mix of masking tape and wood offcuts to make simple jigs), I have now assembled the footplate.

Adding the steps to the valances, best done before attaching them to the frames:

Adding the splasher tops to the footplate. I made new splasher tops 4.5mm x 17mm from thin brass. The inner edges of the splashers are then 18.5mm apart, i.e. just less than the 19.2mm back-to-back so the wheels should be concealed. 

My etch is a bit over-etched and the coupling hook surrounds had almost etched away to nothing. I replaced them with better ones from an etch of miscellaneous wagon details available from Wizard.

Here's the assembled footplate:

And with the body attached with its 3 bolts:

There are many more details to go on both sub-assemblies, but it's starting to look like a J26.

[Mol_PMB]

I now have a few hours of work with files, drills and piercing saw ahead of me...

I have reinforced the rods with a strip of nickel silver between the two halves, hopefully this will work and not be too thick at the middle crankpin.

The sideframes are tacked together ready for some filigree work.

[Tullygrainey]

2 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

 

I have reinforced the rods with a strip of nickel silver between the two halves, hopefully this will work and not be too thick at the middle crankpin.

Probably a sensible precaution. May save heartache later

[Mol_PMB]

Thinking about axles.

I think making new, longer, square-ended Romford style axles is too difficult. 

To modify and extend the existing axles, two solutions spring to mind:

The first is simpler and will work for unpowered axles in hornblocks.

The second requires some lathe work (I don't have a lathe but I have friends that do) and would work for powered axles, and doesn't require hornblocks.

I would need to make at least one of the second type for this project.

 

I see the bigger challenge as assembly, to get the squares aligned with each other and the back-to-back spot on, and then to hold it all together.

I have experience of this with extending pinpoint axles by cutting and sleeving, and have found that if the fit is too tight it's very hard to get the length spot-on, while if the fit isn't tight enough then they rely too much on the glue and may not be perfectly straight. With the loco axles there is also the challenge of the squares.  

It's worth noting that the square sections are very short, I think 1/32" (less than 1mm) so there's not much space to clamp or support the parts on those squares. OK for alignment but not for applying much force.

I did wonder about milling a flat on the body of the axle, making part of it a D shape, before cutting it in half, but I'm not convinced that really helps. The D sections would have to avoid the hornblock and gearbox bearings and would therefore probably end up in the area of the sleeve which wouldn't achieve the desired effect.

I think the answer will be to make the parts a snug sliding fit, set them up in a jig, and then to apply some locitite to the joint.

 

Better ideas would be welcome!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tullygrainey]

Gibson wheels and some 1/8” steel rod?

[Mol_PMB]

17 minutes ago, Tullygrainey said:

Gibson wheels and some 1/8” steel rod?

Yes, that is a fallback option. Though Gibson don't make the correct style of wheel. Another option is to bore and sleeve the wheels I have, to fit a plain 1/8" axle. A lathe job but perhaps no more difficult than the axle modifications.

[Mol_PMB]

After a few hours of hewing the metal, I have achieved the following, seen in cruel closeup:

High Level hornblocks and CSB tags are on order, and there's still a fraction of a millimetre to file off the hornguide slots to enable me to fine-tune their postions.

I still need to fire up the CSB spreadsheet and work out where the spring fixing points should be, and drill for them. Hopefully not somewhere in fresh air!

 

Speaking of fresh air, after the weekend's storms it's a lovely sunny day outside now so I'll stop work and get out for a walk in the sun instead. 

 

 

[Galteemore]

39 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

 

 

 

Edited April 6 by Galteemore

[Tullygrainey]

35 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

After a few hours of hewing the metal, I have achieved the following, seen in cruel closeup:

High Level hornblocks and CSB tags are on order, and there's still a fraction of a millimetre to file off the hornguide slots to enable me to fine-tune their postions.

I still need to fire up the CSB spreadsheet and work out where the spring fixing points should be, and drill for them. Hopefully not somewhere in fresh air!

 

Speaking of fresh air, after the weekend's storms it's a lovely sunny day outside now so I'll stop work and get out for a walk in the sun instead. 

 

 

That’s a lot of work!

[Galteemore]

8 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

40 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

After a few hours of hewing the metal, I have achieved the following, seen in cruel closeup:

High Level hornblocks and CSB tags are on order, and there's still a fraction of a millimetre to file off the hornguide slots to enable me to fine-tune their postions.

I still need to fire up the CSB spreadsheet and work out where the spring fixing points should be, and drill for them. Hopefully not somewhere in fresh air!

 

Speaking of fresh air, after the weekend's storms it's a lovely sunny day outside now so I'll stop work and get out for a walk in the sun instead. 

 

Very nice. The ‘see-through’ frames are a big part of the original’s look so worth doing. I had made BlackLion’s inner tender frames as solid strips but it really changed the loco’s appearance, so I fretted some space which made a huge aesthetic difference 

Very nice. The ‘see-through’ frames are a big part of the original’s look so worth doing. I had made BlackLion’s inner tender frames as solid strips but it really changed the loco’s appearance for the worse, so I fretted some space which made a huge aesthetic difference 

Edited April 6 by Galteemore

[murrayec]

Here is my jig for extending axles and lining up the squares!

A tool maker V block, engineer square and a tool clamp. Most V blocks have a trough at the base of the V, the trough in the block in the background is too wide, the tool maker V block is just right.

The setup to square the ends for a flush sleeve.

And the setup for the outside sleeve.

Eoin.

 

[Mol_PMB]

5 minutes ago, murrayec said:

Here is my jig for extending axles and lining up the squares!

A tool maker V block, engineer square and a tool clamp. Most V blocks have a trough at the base of the V, the trough in the block in the background is too wide, the tool maker V block is just right.

The setup to square the ends for a flush sleeve.

And the setup for the outside sleeve.

Eoin.

 

Very nice! Thank you. 
I’ll see what I can set up in a similar way, might have to borrow some bits off a friend. 
If that fails then I know who to come to, to do it for me! 

[Horsetan]

6 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

...I did wonder about milling a flat on the body of the axle, making part of it a D shape, before cutting it in half, but I'm not convinced that really helps. The D sections would have to avoid the hornblock and gearbox bearings and would therefore probably end up in the area of the sleeve which wouldn't achieve the desired effect....

K's kits were big adopters of the D-axle. The one advantage was that grub screws for final drive gears readily screwed onto the flat, locking the gear in place with no drilling needed.

[Mol_PMB]

Well I’ve been out walking for a couple of hours in the sun while my mind thought about an axle assembly jig. I think I’ve worked out a design I can make on the mill with materials in stock, and will set both the length and squareness.
 

On the way I passed the local model engineers’ track where 5 locos were in steam giving rides. 

But now i have fallen into the pub to quench my thirst, so no machining for me tonight. Tomorrow maybe. 

[Galteemore]

Make sure @jhb171achill sees that GWR livery. He loves faithful livery interpretations like that 

[Mol_PMB]

6 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Make sure @jhb171achill sees that GWR livery. He loves faithful livery interpretations like that 

I did think it was an unusual shade of mid chrome green!

Also, for a railway where the locos were highly standardised, this somehow combines a load of standard features into something that looks completely wrong!

Edited April 6 by Mol_PMB

[Mol_PMB]

In the interests of balance, I should add that the bilious green thing ran very well, pulled plenty of people and the driver was clearly enjoying himself. 
But for me, the Royal Scot and the two Britannias were superior models. My photo of the other Brit was badly timed but it captured the look of a working loco very well:

 

[Galteemore]

That’s a very nice patina indeed. Even the smallest and least ‘accurate’ live steam loco of this kind has to be very well engineered to work at all. Much as I dislike that light green, whoever put hundreds of hours into making it has my respect !