GSWR Corridor Third

[Mol_PMB]

I was looking through photos of passenger trains at Fenit yesterday, and found one which included an 8-compartment corridor second (formerly third) in black and tan livery:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511154971

Here's another image from Ernie showing the same type in green livery:

The first coach is one of these, showing the compartment side. The fourth coach is also one of these, but shows the corridor side which had quite a different appearance.

 

This sent me down a rabbit-hole as my initial thought was that this coach looked similar to some LMS vehicles. I did a bit more research and found that this is a GSWR type, still being built very early in the GSR era. I think they were numbered 1290 to 1322, although there may have been minor variations between the earlier and later builds. So there were a good number of them and many seem to have survived into the 1960s.

Here are some more photos from the IRRS Archive showing both sides. These are in the older dark green livery:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508911093

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509172220

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511165871

And these are in Black'n'tan:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511331613

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511597330

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511331608

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511303071

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511303076

Key dimensions were 57' underframe, 61' over buffers, 42' bogie centres, 9' wide over body, and 13'2" total height over ventilators. 

These compare pretty closely to the early LMS corridor thirds from the same period, diagram 1695: 57' underframe, 60'8" over buffers, 40'8" bogie centres, 9' wide over body, and 12'10" total height over ventilators. 

To my eye, the styling also looks very similar to these early LMS carriages. On the compartment side the layout of doors and windows is identical, and the panelling layout very similar. On the corridor side, there are the same number of doors in a similar arrangement but the windows are distributed slightly differently - the GSWR type has more deadlights where the LMS ones have glass. These are the Comet models etched sides for LMS D1695:

Now, the Mainline / Replica / Bachmann LMS coaches are representations of this type, but they only make the composite and the brake third, not the full third. These are the two sides of the composite:

 

I've seen accounts of people doing a 'cut and shut' using parts of two brake thirds to make a full third, or of course you can overlay the Comet etched sides to make a third.

 

Now, I know that Bachmann produced their composite and brake third in CIE dark green as part of their Irish set, and some people have dismissed them as completely incorrect. But are they really that bad? Am I missing something?

The older Mainline versions can be picked up on Ebay for not much more than a tenner each, so they would make a cheap basis for a conversion. I was wondering whether anyone has used these as the basis of Irish models? Some details could be changed quite easily: adding full-length footboards and an Irish livery would help a lot even if you didn't change the window arrangements.

 

Please show me what you've done!

 

 

 

[Westcorkrailway]

3 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

I was looking through photos of passenger trains at Fenit yesterday, and found one which included an 8-compartment corridor second (formerly third) in black and tan livery:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511154971

Here's another image from Ernie showing the same type in green livery:

The first coach is one of these, showing the compartment side. The fourth coach is also one of these, but shows the corridor side which had quite a different appearance.

 

This sent me down a rabbit-hole as my initial thought was that this coach looked similar to some LMS vehicles. I did a bit more research and found that this is a GSWR type, still being built very early in the GSR era. I think they were numbered 1290 to 1322, although there may have been minor variations between the earlier and later builds. So there were a good number of them and many seem to have survived into the 1960s.

Here are some more photos from the IRRS Archive showing both sides. These are in the older dark green livery:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508911093

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509172220

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511165871

And these are in Black'n'tan:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511331613

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511597330

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511331608

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511303071

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511303076

Key dimensions were 57' underframe, 61' over buffers, 42' bogie centres, 9' wide over body, and 13'2" total height over ventilators. 

These compare pretty closely to the early LMS corridor thirds from the same period, diagram 1695: 57' underframe, 60'8" over buffers, 40'8" bogie centres, 9' wide over body, and 12'10" total height over ventilators. 

To my eye, the styling also looks very similar to these early LMS carriages. On the compartment side the layout of doors and windows is identical, and the panelling layout very similar. On the corridor side, there are the same number of doors in a similar arrangement but the windows are distributed slightly differently - the GSWR type has more deadlights where the LMS ones have glass. These are the Comet models etched sides for LMS D1695:

Now, the Mainline / Replica / Bachmann LMS coaches are representations of this type, but they only make the composite and the brake third, not the full third. These are the two sides of the composite:

 

I've seen accounts of people doing a 'cut and shut' using parts of two brake thirds to make a full third, or of course you can overlay the Comet etched sides to make a third.

 

Now, I know that Bachmann produced their composite and brake third in CIE dark green as part of their Irish set, and some people have dismissed them as completely incorrect. But are they really that bad? Am I missing something?

The older Mainline versions can be picked up on Ebay for not much more than a tenner each, so they would make a cheap basis for a conversion. I was wondering whether anyone has used these as the basis of Irish models? Some details could be changed quite easily: adding full-length footboards and an Irish livery would help a lot even if you didn't change the window arrangements.

 

Please show me what you've done!

 

 

 

Here was my attempt a couple of years ago. it was on some cheap LMS coach from hattons. 

[Mol_PMB]

Nice - thanks for sharing the photos. The green livery looks spot on - can you remember what shade of paint you used?

[jhb171achill]

In answer to a number of points raised above;

In relation to design, in 00 scale if you paint many types of British prototypes in green, and do it well, as WestCork did above, you'll get a perfectly reasonable pre-1960 CIE coach. The CIE stock at the time was composed of a very varied mixture, as follows.

SIX WHEELERS

Former MGWR types predominated in the passenger-carrying ones, though many ex-GSWR examples were also in use. In West Cork, one or two ex-Bandon ones were still about but not used much if at all latterly. DSER types had disappeared from traffic, as had ex W & L types, by the early to mid-50s; Inchicore always seemed keen to divest the world of much that was DSER rolling stock related! On the other hand, as far as six-wheeled passenger brakes were concerned, former MGWR ones were rare by the mid-50s; GSWR types dominated. So to go to the modelling world, while MGWR passenger types oytnumbers ex-GSW ones, the Hattons Genesis stuff are fine, as although built to the British loading gauge, they are by coincidence very GSWR-esque in design.

BOGIES

MUCH bigger story. In the late 50s, one might summarise in saying that GSWR types dominated the wooden carriage world, with a few MGWR, an EXTREMELY few DSER, and after 1858 a few GNR types thrown in, that's not the half of it, and this is where the stories referred to above come in. The two biggest companies within the CIE umbrella, the GSWR & MGWR, each had a bewildering array of designs, many being one-offs! A very large number of carriages were of batches of three, or six or ten; our younger enthusiasts today will struggle to understand just how UN-standard things were back then, and why a photo of a typical train rarely has two vehicles the same in it! The GSWR, for example, had two distinct roof profiles. The MGWR had three, complicated by the fact that both Broadstone and later Inchicore often rebuilt them in a slightly different format. Internally, as stated, many were one-offs, and others were perhaps one of a pair the same. DSER stock had two roof types, from memory. As for the peropheral lines like the CBSCR, there were all sorts of old relics, the unusual aspects there being things like short wheelbase bogies, non-standard carriage lengths, unusual roof profiles in at least one case I can think of, and external matchboard panelling, LLSR-style.

So, amongst bogies, we have non-standard lengths, non-standard internal layouts, non-standard panelling, non-standard roof profiles, and gawwwd knows what else.

But wait! dear reader. There's more.

After 1925, anything the GSR built tended to follow Inchicore practice of the 1918-25 period. But into the 1930s and the GSR develops their own style through the steel-panelled "Bredins", of which several varieties, some initially non-corridor, existed.

In 1951/3, CIE put out a series of steel-sides, largely based on Bredins but not the same exactly. Between 1955 and 1960, the Park Royals (several variations) and the laminates (MANY variations) appear.

Phew!

No, we're not done. An influx in October 1958 of ex-GNR stock - again, many many types, some timber panelled but most more modern, start appearing in places like Loughrea and Bantry on occasion, and become commpnplace on the DSER section.  Add to that, some are brown and some are navy blue and cream. Now, you can have a train on DSER with a dark green coach, a light green coach, a silver coach, a brown coach, a newly black'n'tan coach after 1962 and a navy/cream coach!

So many designs, so many possibilities.

Thus, within this fog of diversity, just about anything repainted will look the prt.

Mr. Grandson awaits my attentions right now; i will contionue this later.

 

[Mol_PMB]

Thanks Jonathan, I appreciate there's a lot of complexity!

Looking at the photos, this GSWR corridor third from the 1918-1925 period seems to be a reasonably consistent design made in large numbers (for Ireland - around 30 of them) and quite long-lived. Photos of 1294, 1300, 1310 and 1317 are virtually indistinguishable to my eye, so I think they were fairly consistent in shape and detail. They also have the advantage of being very similar in dimensions and style to some LMS coaches readily available in 4mm scale. 

What I'm wondering now is whether a pair of etched overlay sides exactly to the GSWR drawing might be a better option than cutting-and-shutting the Mainline/Bachmann coaches. But I think even just a simple repaint of a Bachmann composite would be fairly convincing, especially in black'n'tan livery which tends to hide slight discrepancies in the window layout. Put the footboards on and it becomes even more Irish.

Having one of these in a rake that was otherwise more modern CIE stock (including Park Royals) would be entirely prototypical and would provide an interesting contrast.

 

[Westcorkrailway]

1 hour ago, Mol_PMB said:

Nice - thanks for sharing the photos. The green livery looks spot on - can you remember what shade of paint you used?

It’s a pretty good match, but it’s not perfect. It’s too dark for the lighter green and too light for the darker green. Colour was emerald green from memory

[StevieB]

Two possible sources of coach for conversion are the old Graham Farish corridor third and the Hornby Maunsell low window corridor third. The former is much cheaper but the tops of the corridor windows needs lowering.

Stephen

[Mol_PMB]

Thanks. I think the Mainline/Bachmann LMS ones capture the style better, but the disadvantage is the lack of the corridor third. Though I think a cut'n'shut of bits from the brake third and/or composite would work.

The GSWR did have some composites of this style too, but they weren't like the LMS composite so are probably harder to do.

[jhb171achill]

14 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

I was looking through photos of passenger trains at Fenit yesterday, and found one which included an 8-compartment corridor second (formerly third) in black and tan livery:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511154971

Here's another image from Ernie showing the same type in green livery:

The first coach is one of these, showing the compartment side. The fourth coach is also one of these, but shows the corridor side which had quite a different appearance.

 

This sent me down a rabbit-hole as my initial thought was that this coach looked similar to some LMS vehicles. I did a bit more research and found that this is a GSWR type, still being built very early in the GSR era. I think they were numbered 1290 to 1322, although there may have been minor variations between the earlier and later builds. So there were a good number of them and many seem to have survived into the 1960s.

Here are some more photos from the IRRS Archive showing both sides. These are in the older dark green livery:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508911093

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509172220

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511165871

And these are in Black'n'tan:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511331613

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511597330

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511331608

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511303071

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511303076

Key dimensions were 57' underframe, 61' over buffers, 42' bogie centres, 9' wide over body, and 13'2" total height over ventilators. 

These compare pretty closely to the early LMS corridor thirds from the same period, diagram 1695: 57' underframe, 60'8" over buffers, 40'8" bogie centres, 9' wide over body, and 12'10" total height over ventilators. 

To my eye, the styling also looks very similar to these early LMS carriages. On the compartment side the layout of doors and windows is identical, and the panelling layout very similar. On the corridor side, there are the same number of doors in a similar arrangement but the windows are distributed slightly differently - the GSWR type has more deadlights where the LMS ones have glass. These are the Comet models etched sides for LMS D1695:

Now, the Mainline / Replica / Bachmann LMS coaches are representations of this type, but they only make the composite and the brake third, not the full third. These are the two sides of the composite:

 

 

Now, I know that Bachmann produced their composite and brake third in CIE dark green as part of their Irish set, and some people have dismissed them as completely incorrect. But are they really that bad? Am I missing something?

Grandson-minding duties complete; so here we are again.

Window spacings and shapes on LMS types were completely different from GSWR. The narrower panes sere wider on GSWR types usually, and the wider windows spaced differently. Now; given the sheer variety of types on all railways, I would not get carried away by that. However, LMS roof profiles and side profiles were worlds apart from GSWR. Coach sides for the latter were straight from cantrail down to well below waistline, then curved in. Roof curvature was more even on post 1915-ish examples, or older ones were flat-roofed. By the time the LMS came to Ireland, older coaches on the NCC were all of older BNCR design, whole planets away from either LMS or GSWR in design.

Past comments, as far as I am concerned anyway, relate to the LMS designs which were in CIE livery to go with Bachmann "Woolwich" locos. In the absence of anything else, they'd do - but in the same way that a "Flying Scotsman" in CIE green might be seen as a "Maedb", or a random British 0.6.0 tank loco be passed off as Irish by painting it grey, or painting it black with "G N R" on the side. Two foot rule; fine. Looks like real thing: only on the way home from Gibneys, when half-scuttered! Not, of course, that I would be aware of that, and I wasn't even there when I didn't do it.....

 

[Mol_PMB]

In summary, the main objection is the cross-section. The LMS sides curve in more at the bottom than the GSWR ones. The LMS roof meets the sides at an angle, whereas the GSWR has a tight radius to the vertical.

Illustrated below.

This is the model cross-section, from a eBay listing:

 

Compare to a zoomed-in crop of Ernie's photo:

 

And this is the preserved first of a similar type, photo by Kieran Marshall:

 

I can see the difference now you have pointed it out, but I'm not sure it's quite as bad as having the wrong number of wheels!

Anyway, the objections were so strong that I'll forget that plan.

 

 

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508911093/in/faves-50559291@N03/

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

In summary, the main objection is the cross-section. The LMS sides curve in more at the bottom than the GSWR ones. The LMS roof meets the sides at an angle, whereas the GSWR has a tight radius to the vertical.

Illustrated below.

This is the model cross-section, from a eBay listing:

 

Compare to a zoomed-in crop of Ernie's photo:

 

And this is the preserved first of a similar type, photo by Kieran Marshall:

 

I can see the difference now you have pointed it out, but I'm not sure it's quite as bad as having the wrong number of wheels!

Anyway, the objections were so strong that I'll forget that plan.

 

 

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508911093/in/faves-50559291@N03/

The "good news", of course, is that these coaches are perfect for any layout based upon the NCC or UTA.

And this raises two another issues I've commented on before. Both of these refer to yawning gaps in the Irish model world, which hopefully might be addressed in future by either IRM or possibly a kit maker of the excellent quality of Provincial Wagons.

1.  Coaches for the GSR / CIE era. With the exception of the Bredins and a handful of later CIE imitations, throughout the 1925-1955 period the coaching stock throughout the (Irish!) world south of Sligo, Cavan and Kingscourt was a mixture of (as previously stated) a bewildering array of pre-GSR types. While no model manufacturer, niche or mainstream, could ever be expected to produce all but a tiny handful of the various yokes rattling about the place, it would seem to be (at this stage, anyway) a glaring omission not to have at least a few of the more common types in model form. We have the Bachmann Woolwichs, and we have the 00 Works J15s, so the motive power is there already - and has been for some time - for both main and branch lines. JM Design has produced some absolutely beautiful GSWR & MGWR kits in the past, and I know of several folks who have kitbashed or amended various British prototypes to look like a generic Irish steam loco of GSR area. So, we have motive power for both main and branch lines.

But there's nothing for any of them to haul! Which, of course, is behind this current thread. And with British design so dissimilar to that here in most cases, if a degree of accuracy is required, there's nothing much suitable to repaint. In recent times, the Hattons Genesis six-wheelers, being CO-INCIDENTALLY similar to some GSWR designs, have bridged the gap for branch and secondary lines, though on the latter they'd have been mixed in with bogie stock too.

However, what is lacking on the main line is seconds, firsts and composites; all three variant being possible from two basic body shapes, of the more common GSWR types. While Midland and DSER types were in there too, it is perhaps unsurprisingly the GSWR bogies which lasted longest, surviving into the "black'n'tan" era and seeing service in the Dublin and Cork suburban areas well into the early 1970s; even appearing in photos alongside brand-new "Supertrain"-liveried Mk 2s.

This type of thing seems an absolutely obvious choice for a model. I have even spoken to several kit makers about producing a run of them, and the GSWR design book has adequate examples. If we even had one or two variants of GSWR designs, a re-run of the six-wheeled full brake of Hattons, and a model of the Bredin coaches, we have the perfect set for the 1930s and 40s in GSR maroon, dark green for the fifties  - and with new IRM lighter green Park Royals (prototypically) added in - the green trains of the late fifties to mid sixties. Plus, given the long lives many of these had, the very same variants in black'n'tan.

2.  Northern modelling. Like CIE, the UTA inherited a selection of coaching stock of different origins too. It was not anything like as varied as the GSR, due to smaller geographical area meaning less stock to begin with; fewer constituent companies (only two at first, a third later); and the fact that the LMS had initiated a greater degree of standardisation than Inchicore during their ownership of the erstwhile Belfast & Northern Counties. But by the 1950s, there were BCDR designs to be seen, albeit in very low numbers as most were scrapped following the BCDR pogrom in 1950. There were ex-BNCR types, with their high roofs and flat sides - like the Midland Great Western, so completely different to anything else in Ireland, let alone Britain, that nothing short of scratchbuilding is of any service in recreating them. And, of course, MR / LMS NCC types, as seen in these pics above. Add to that the unique feature of actual British stock being brought over here too following German bombing in the war. This meant that the NCC had coaches of almost exactly the same designs and side and roof profiles - but the re-gauged ones from Britain were both narrower in width, and lower in height, and (as I well recall in seeing them) noticeably so.

The only "UTA" loco so far has been 00 Works' fast-selling GNR 4.4.0 and 0.6.0, the versions in UTA livery. We must discount the "Jinty" as these were Belfast dock shunters, never regularly in traffic doing anything at all on the main line; plus short lived, plus only two of them. But again, repaints and alterations of various RTR British locos have been turned into very creditable versions of Jeeps, or "Mogul" 2.6.0s.

Just as a few years ago, we saw a growing interest in the pre-1960 CIE scene, unless I'm wrong I suspect a growing interest in the pre-1970 UTA scene. I hope that I am correct in this. Either way, here we have it: for the south, adequate steam locos so far, and let's hope for more - but too few carriage options. North, and it's the other way round! We have numerous LMS coaches which just need a repaint, plus the likes of Worsley Works GNR etches, or the Silverfox K15s.

On Dugort Harbour, I try to stick to the authientic, though I know this isn't necessarily for everyone. I have Hattons six-wheelers, a silver and a green tin van, and a green Park Royal for the branch, but as of yet, for the green era, the main line is what i hope will just be temporary repaints of Ratio and Hornby things. I await more IRM Park Royals, and I have a gentleman currently doing a few SSM Bredins for me. In the B'n'T era, of course, we have IRM Park Royals, Murphy Cravens, and one or two Silverfox CIE types.

 

 

[Horsetan]

What would be useful is a book of coach diagrams - a selection, perhaps, of common / everyday stock that were frequently observed.

I'd like a Bredin one day - there's at least two still with us, one of which is unlikely ever to run anywhere again, whilst the other....can't.

[jhb171achill]

50 minutes ago, Horsetan said:

What would be useful is a book of coach diagrams - a selection, perhaps, of common / everyday stock that were frequently observed.

I'd like a Bredin one day - there's at least two still with us, one of which is unlikely ever to run anywhere again, whilst the other....can't.

The IRRS publish one. I think it's also available to non-members, and might be available from one of their stands at a show. The "go-to" man is Richard McLachlan, a good colleage of Leslie of Provincial Wagons.

The sort of things you're looking at are the likes of the RPSI's 1142, and Downpatrick's 836. While the former is locked up in Inchicore, the latter is to be seen in the DCDR museum. In each, you've an example of both the high-roofed and low-roofed profiles. At Downpatrick also, there is a GSWR six-wheeler under restoration. In its restored guise, it's actuall been rebuilt as a brake saloon forst, though in real life it was a full brake (No. 69) - one of the very last few to survive.

[jhb171achill]

On 7/3/2025 at 11:59 AM, Mol_PMB said:

Thanks Jonathan, I appreciate there's a lot of complexity!

Looking at the photos, this GSWR corridor third from the 1918-1925 period seems to be a reasonably consistent design made in large numbers (for Ireland - around 30 of them) and quite long-lived. Photos of 1294, 1300, 1310 and 1317 are virtually indistinguishable to my eye, so I think they were fairly consistent in shape and detail. They also have the advantage of being very similar in dimensions and style to some LMS coaches readily available in 4mm scale. 

What I'm wondering now is whether a pair of etched overlay sides exactly to the GSWR drawing might be a better option than cutting-and-shutting the Mainline/Bachmann coaches. But I think even just a simple repaint of a Bachmann composite would be fairly convincing, especially in black'n'tan livery which tends to hide slight discrepancies in the window layout. Put the footboards on and it becomes even more Irish.

Having one of these in a rake that was otherwise more modern CIE stock (including Park Royals) would be entirely prototypical and would provide an interesting contrast.

I think etched overlays are a very good option, and certainly a great deal easier than scratchbuilding. Repaints (and I've a few) can indeed look convincing enough, especially with footboards added. (GSWR platforms were traditionally much lower, as were some on the DWWR).

And yes, mix and match with Park Royals and Genesis 6-wheelers, especially the full brake vans, and a tin van or two as well; and among wooden stock both heights of roofs. On my layout, I have prototypically no more than one or two of any type of coach, so all trains are a mix of whatever's about!

[Mayner]

I have a number of sets of Comet coach sides etches stashed away for the past 40 years with the intention of building a Rosslare 12 wheeler, as JHB commented the window sizes/spacing of LMS & GSWR pannelled stock don't match.

While etched coach sides would be a good option its uncertain whether there is enough interest/demand among Southern modellers  to make it worthwhile for someone to produce a set of etched sides for a GSWR coach let alone a rtr model.

Its telling that Worsley Works produce scratchbuilders parts for 11 Types of NCC, 12 Types of GNR, 4Types of DNGR coaches, 3 different types of railcars for GN/UTA modellers. "Southern" models are restricted to 7 GSWR 6 wheelers (partially duplicated with SSM), a Pullman Coach, CIE era Laminate (2 coaches) Park Royal & Cravens (the last two duplicated by RTR stock)

 

[jhb171achill]

On 9/3/2025 at 11:16 PM, Mayner said:

I have a number of sets of Comet coach sides etches stashed away for the past 40 years with the intention of building a Rosslare 12 wheeler, as JHB commented the window sizes/spacing of LMS & GSWR pannelled stock don't match.

While etched coach sides would be a good option its uncertain whether there is enough interest/demand among Southern modellers  to make it worthwhile for someone to produce a set of etched sides for a GSWR coach let alone a rtr model.

Its telling that Worsley Works produce scratchbuilders parts for 11 Types of NCC, 12 Types of GNR, 4Types of DNGR coaches, 3 different types of railcars for GN/UTA modellers. "Southern" models are restricted to 7 GSWR 6 wheelers (partially duplicated with SSM), a Pullman Coach, CIE era Laminate (2 coaches) Park Royal & Cravens (the last two duplicated by RTR stock)

 

Possibly 3D is the way forward here. I had discussed a 3D body for a standard GSWR main line corridor composite a while back, with one of our 3D experts here - must re-visit that. A compo would work well, as older main line coaches of this type were widely used also on branchlines in the CIE period. Ballaghaderreen, Kenmare and Loughrea all had lengthy periods in the 1950s where the traditional short rake of 1890s six-wheelers was replaced by a "modern" 19209s ex-GSWR composite and a tin van or six-wheeled passenger brake. So, of all the older "southern" carriage types, a vehicle of this type would appear to have a wider range of applications. The 8-compartment type shown above by Mayner, either in corridor or non-corridor versions, was to be seen well into black'n'tan days on the two spare Dublin sets of wooden stock which just aboiut lasted into the 1970s, on Youghal excursions up to about that time, and occasiobally also on Cobh suburban traffic mixed in with Park Royals. The last time I personally saw anything like that in traffic was, I think, in 1970.

[Wexford70]

1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

Possibly 3D is the way forward here. I had discussed a 3D body for a standard GSWR main line corridor composite a while back, with one of our 3D experts here - must re-visit that. A compo would work well, as older main line coaches of this type were widely used also on branchlines in the CIE period. Ballaghaderreen, Kenmare and Loughrea all had lengthy periods in the 1950s where the traditional short rake of 1890s six-wheelers was replaced by a "modern" 19209s ex-GSWR composite and a tin van or six-wheeled passenger brake. So, of all the older "southern" carriage types, a vehicle of this type would appear to have a wider range of applications. The 8-compartment type shown above by Mayner, either in corridor or non-corridor versions, was to be seen well into black'n'tan days on the two spare Dublin sets of wooden stock which just aboiut lasted into the 1970s, on Youghal excursions up to about that time, and occasiobally also on Cobh suburban traffic mixed in with Park Royals. The last time I personally saw anything like that in traffic was, I think, in 1970.

This was an example of the tin vans and 6 wheeler in New Ross.

[jhb171achill]

7 hours ago, Wexford70 said:

This was an example of the tin vans and 6 wheeler in New Ross.

Silver, green and black’n’tan all present there!

[Westcorkrailway]

An excellent presentation in Bru Columbanus tonight by Ciaràn cooney. Included shots of extremely long excursion trains in the 1960s hauled by a Black Sulzer loco. The coaches were in both green and Black and Tan. Mostly made up of GSWR bogey coaches! 

[jhb171achill]

41 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

An excellent presentation in Bru Columbanus tonight by Ciaràn cooney. Included shots of extremely long excursion trains in the 1960s hauled by a Black Sulzer loco. The coaches were in both green and Black and Tan. Mostly made up of GSWR bogey coaches! 

Yes - for some reason, few MGWR bogies made it into the black'n'tan era - there were a very few, but most timber-bodied coaches still in use after about 1964/5 were ex-GSWR, and of both low and high roofs, and both corridor and non-corridor.

The very last coaches still in green appear to have been up to 1967, judging by both personal memories and pictures I've seen. A solitary GNR coach was still in traffic in brown as late as 1967.

[GSWR 90]

On 7/3/2025 at 7:45 AM, Mol_PMB said:

I was looking through photos of passenger trains at Fenit yesterday, and found one which included an 8-compartment corridor second (formerly third) in black and tan livery:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511154971

Here's another image from Ernie showing the same type in green livery:

 

I am very interested in the second coach behind the loco – it has a toilet, two first compartments, two second compartments, another toilet, and a third class saloon. I think that that arrangement is unique to GSWR 1097 which is preserved at Downpatrick

 

Edited 20 hours ago by GSWR 90

[Mol_PMB]

 

That's very interesting, because I had been puzzling over the arrangement of that second coach in Ernie's photo.

This is a similar vehicle, quite possibly the same one:

Also interesting to note that the one at Downpatrick has had a bogie swap and lost its footboards, changing the appearance somewhat.

 

I think there were a variety of layouts for this 'family' of GSWR corridor carriages, although I'm fairly sure that the thirds were the most numerous. However, as yet I haven't found a list of types or numbers, nor any diagrams or drawings. I have an IRRS journal with a good article on GSR carriages, which mentions the thirds that were being built in the GSWR/GSR transition period. I don't have an equivalent article on GSWR carriages although I suspect there is something on that topic in the IRRS archives. The book 'Irish Broad Gauge Carriages', whilst useful, has a scope too broad to go into much detail on individual types. Based on photos...

The full thirds were 1290 to 1322; plenty of photo links for these above; here's Ernie's photo of the corridor side of 1312:

The RPSI has a full first 1142, the compartment side seen here:

There was also a group of composites with two first class compartments in the middle, which included 2091 and 2094:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509172215

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509299340

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511165801

However, this appears to be a different sort of composite:

This full brake 2544 may also be from the same family of vehicles:

I'm not sure if there were brake thirds (or similar) of this family of corridor coaches - quite possibly.

 

Introduced in the 1910s/20s, some lasted into the 1970s - a good 50-year life. They would have carried liveries of the GSWR and GSR, through two shades of CIE green, with the later survivors ending their lives in black and tan. So they might have a fairly wide appeal as a model. In the CIE era these GSWR corridor coaches could turn up in almost any sort of train - long distance, suburban or branch passenger/mixed trains. Hang them behind your 800, A class, C class, G class, J15, whatever!

 

[GSWR 90]

2 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

 

That's very interesting, because I had been puzzling over the arrangement of that second coach in Ernie's photo.

This is a similar vehicle, quite possibly the same one:

Also interesting to note that the one at Downpatrick has had a bogie swap and lost its footboards, changing the appearance somewhat.

 

Thanks for that photo. It gained commonwealth bogies and double doors in its saloon when it was converted to an ambulance coach, AM12, for the Knock pilgrimage train in 1959.

https://www.downrail.co.uk/rollingstock/gswr1097/

 

[Mol_PMB]

I have also found a couple of photos of these GSWR corridor coaches in use as intermediates in AEC Railcar sets, which increases their potential usefulness even more. 

For example, in 'Railways in Ireland' part 3 (Bairstow), page 7 shows a 3-car AEC railcar set with a GSWR corridor as the intermediate, at Wicklow Murrough in 1957. 

The same book, page 26 shows a Rosslare-Dublin train at Enniscorthy in 1959, formed of Bulleid railcar 2664, a GSWR corridor, an AEC railcar and a tin van tacked on the back.

I've been looking at the detail of the panelling and beading which is actually quite complex with multiple layers. I'm considering a way to do this as an etch with an overlay for the upper half, but a 3D printed solution might be better? Or maybe a combination - print the main bodyshell and add an etched overlay to the upper half? With oversized window openings in the 3D print, the glazing could be placed against the etch layer.

This photo of Ernie's shows the layers quite well: