Torpedo Vents - Clogher Valley All 1st

[Irish Mark]

Hey all,

Sorry if this is a bit of a beginner question or something that’s been asked before — I’ve had a look around but haven’t found a clear answer, so here goes.

I’m trying to figure out how many torpedo vents were on the all-first coaches of the Clogher Valley Railway, and how they were spaced. The best photos I’ve come across are on pages 33, 89, and 151 of the Patterson edition of The Clogher Valley Railway. From what I can tell, it looks like there are five or maybe six vents — which is more than the all-thirds and the first/third composites (it seem to be weldocumented those had just three).

Also, there seems to be an extra one mounted on a rectangular plinth above the balcony at one end — maybe even both ends?

Would love to hear any thoughts or insights if anyone has looked into this before.

Thanks!

[David Holman]

Just checked my own thread 'Clogher Valley Project', now malingering on page two of the layout thread. I built a first and a third, with both having just three vents. Never picked up that the firsts had more (they were much shorter anyway) and quite possible they lost a couple when the CVR degraded them to thirds.

 In the course of many exhibitions, nobody ever mentioned a lack of vents, though did once get criticised for a Guinness poster that was the wrong period!

[Irish Mark]

Thanks for the input.

I’m planning to go with a three-vent setup for now. The images I’ve looked at do show something a bit unusual with the vents on the All-First carriages, but in the absence of any solid evidence to the contrary, I’m comfortable assuming the three-vent configuration was part of the rationalization process—based on established practice and experience with the longer carriages—when First Class was phased out. Feels like one for the “life’s too short” list!

That said, if clear evidence of a retrofit ever turns up, swapping out a roof detail wouldn’t be a big deal.

 

Pictures to follow in due course.

[Irish Mark]

Here’s where I’m at with my CVR All-1st and the accompanying Goods Van. Both still need a bit of cleanup, decals (I haven’t decided what to do there yet), and weathering to finish them off. The only detail I’m still unsure about is the width of the center panel below the windows on the coach. I went with a panel that’s one window wide, lined up with the middle window of the nine on each side. It looks a bit narrow, especially since on the longer coaches this panel was two windows wide, centered on the middle pair of twelve windows per side. I’m not planning to change this build, but if anyone has more accurate info or a better interpretation, I’d love to hear it so I can make adjustments on future models.

The rolling stock is set up on the 4mm/ft 9mm gauge OO9 18in x 12in “Bosca Scarp” micro layout which I scratch-built (apart from the loco and two tunnel portals) in just two weeks for a recent regional NMRA convention. With that short timeframe, I decided to build two “prototype-style” carriages using old Egger-Bahn chassis for the event—and that turned out to be a good call. Still, I always knew I’d want something closer to the prototype, especially since the micro will be used as a display piece at club shows. That’s what led to these “upgraded” versions. I’m pretty happy with how they’ve turned out as quick, “layout-quality” builds. I’ll eventually do more detailed 3mm/ft scale (my preferred scale) 9mm gauge versions—but don’t hold your breath for those!

 

[Mayner]

Your CVR coach and van appear nicely modelled.

I assembled a pair of Branchlines (Andrew Mullins) CVR 3rd Class Coaches and a CVR Horse Box about 30 years ago but never got around to building a matching Van (passenger brake) or loco to complet the train, must do while I am still able.

[Patrick Davey]

10 hours ago, Irish Mark said:

 

 

These look superb - I would certainly like to see more photos!

[Mol_PMB]

15 hours ago, Irish Mark said:

Here’s where I’m at with my CVR All-1st and the accompanying Goods Van. Both still need a bit of cleanup, decals (I haven’t decided what to do there yet), and weathering to finish them off. The only detail I’m still unsure about is the width of the center panel below the windows on the coach. I went with a panel that’s one window wide, lined up with the middle window of the nine on each side. It looks a bit narrow, especially since on the longer coaches this panel was two windows wide, centered on the middle pair of twelve windows per side. I’m not planning to change this build, but if anyone has more accurate info or a better interpretation, I’d love to hear it so I can make adjustments on future models.

The rolling stock is set up on the 4mm/ft 9mm gauge OO9 18in x 12in “Bosca Scarp” micro layout which I scratch-built (apart from the loco and two tunnel portals) in just two weeks for a recent regional NMRA convention. With that short timeframe, I decided to build two “prototype-style” carriages using old Egger-Bahn chassis for the event—and that turned out to be a good call. Still, I always knew I’d want something closer to the prototype, especially since the micro will be used as a display piece at club shows. That’s what led to these “upgraded” versions. I’m pretty happy with how they’ve turned out as quick, “layout-quality” builds. I’ll eventually do more detailed 3mm/ft scale (my preferred scale) 9mm gauge versions—but don’t hold your breath for those!

 

 

I may be too late for you, but I've had a quick trawl through my CVR books and the following photos show first class coaches:

 

The Clogher Valley Railway, Patterson (original hardback):

• p.17, dated 1910. Not a very clear view.
• p.52, undated, in a lengthy special train. Not a very clear view.
• p.54, dated 1937, in a lengthy special train. Not a very clear view.
• p.71, dated 1910. Part-way down a train but reasonably clear. 3 vents and 3 lamps on the roof. Layout of the panelling and lettering is visible though not legible.

The Clogher Valley Railway, Patterson (second edition softback):

• p.32, dated 1935. First coach behind the loco, there appear to be 5 vents on the roof and a 'chimney' over the nearer balcony. Side panelling concealed by a post.
• p.88, dated 1903, half the carriage side is visible on the edge of the photo showing some of the lettering and panelling arrangement. Roof out of shot.
• p.89, dated 1920. First coach behind the loco, there appear to be 6 vents on the roof and a 'chimney' over the nearer balcony. Side panelling clearly visible but lettering unclear.
• p.134, dated 1920. Partial view of the end, showing lots of vents and the 'chimney', also a device on the balcony headstock (for acetylene lighting? Associated with the 'chimney'? See also p.153 lower photo, a third class but it has the same arrangement of acetylene generator.)
• p.71, dated 1910. Part-way down a train but reasonably clear. 3 vents and 3 lamps on the roof. Layout of the panelling and lettering is visible though not legible.

In the Days of the Clogher Valley, Johnston:

• p.1, undated. First coach behind the loco, there appear to be 6 vents on the roof. Side panelling clearly visible but lettering unclear.
• p.3, dated 1934. First coach behind the loco, there appear to be 6 vents on the roof and a 'chimney' over the nearer balcony. Side panelling clearly visible but lettering unclear.
• p.8, undated, in a lengthy special train. Not a very clear view.
• p.11, dated 1903, half the carriage side is visible on the edge of the photo showing some of the lettering and panelling arrangement. Roof out of shot.

Lost Railways of Co.Tyrone and Co.Fermanagh, Johnson:

• Front cover, undated but early. First coach behind the loco, 6 items on the roof, of two types, but unlike any other photos. 3 vents and 3 oil lamps?

The Irish Narrow Gauge vol 2, Ferris:

• p.9, dated 1920. First coach behind the loco, there appear to be 6 vents on the roof and a 'chimney' over the nearer balcony. Side panelling clearly visible but lettering unclear.
• p.18 top right, undated. First coach behind the loco, side panelling clear but roof detail rather lost in the trees.
• p.18 middle, 1939. This may be a third class but it shows a fairly good view of the device on the balcony headstock, the chimney and two types of vent.

Fermanagh's Railways, Friel/Johnston: no photos of CVR first class coaches though there are some other CVR images.

IRRS photo archive: no photos of CVR first class coaches but this image shows the acetylene lighting arrangements pretty well: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53813359618/

This is also a fairly good view on Flickr; 6 unevenly spaced vents and a chimney:

You may already have found many of these; please let me know if you would like me to scan any images from my books for you.

[airfixfan]

Have some Clogher Valley photos which need to be sorted. Headhunters have some good CVR photos 2

[Irish Mark]

8 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

 

I may be too late for you, but I've had a quick trawl through my CVR books and the following photos show first class coaches....

 

The Clogher Valley Railway, Patterson (original hardback) & The Clogher Valley Railway, Patterson (second edition softback):.

• p.71, dated 1910. Part-way down a train but reasonably clear. 3 vents and 3 lamps on the roof. Layout of the panelling and lettering is visible though not legible.

Lost Railways of Co.Tyrone and Co.Fermanagh, Johnson:

• Front cover, undated but early. First coach behind the loco, 6 items on the roof, of two types, but unlike any other photos. 3 vents and 3 oil lamps?

 

Wonderful feedback. Thanks.

I have most of the books Mol_PMB referenced and looked back through them with the benefit of those insights.

I do not have the “Lost Railways of Co. Tyrone and Co. Fermanagh, Johnson” book. I did find a low resolution front cover image and can make out the details noted. A higher resolution scan of that image would be a useful addition to my collection if that’s not too much trouble – thanks in advance.

I had not picked up the vents/lamps distinction provided in the “p.71, dated 1910” notes. That’s very valuable.

The Flickr image is not one I’d seen before and has good detail and contrast. It makes the single middle side panel very clear (the direction I went, so that’s pleasing) and the 6 unevenly spaced vents and a chimney are obvious if not totally clear (my argument for this quick build is that the venting was rationalized in a later refit – I’ll make up for this liberty with a more correct representation when I build my 3mm/ft scale stock later). I’ve cropped that image and picked out those details below.
Any idea about the chimney detail such as were it vents from – presumably it must be connected to the clerestory somehow?

 

 

[Mol_PMB]

Here are some scans of the better images - sorry the quality of the originals isn't always great. 

It's probably worth you having another read of the relevant books - at least the sections on carriages. The CVR went through several stages of carriage lighting, including oil, acetylene gas (from carbide), oil again briefly, and finally some were fitted with electric light. I suspect that some of the variations seen on the clerestory roofs aren't just ventilators but include lamps of various kinds. Oil/gas lamps would have needed some kind of vent of their own, to allow the combustion gases to escape.

In the early days, oil lamps might have been prepared away from the carriages, and then put into the clerestory around nightfall, placed into holes that would be covered with a cap when the lamp wasn't there.  

I think this is the earliest photo and the roof details appear quite different to later images. I'm pretty sure some of these are oil lamp tops rather than vents:

 

Most images of the first class coach(es) show 6 vents, unevenly spaced and maybe not all the same height or size. Exactly as you have marked on the Flickr photo.

At the end with 2 vents close together is the square 'chimney' thing (it might not be a chimney at all) which is separate from the clerestory. It is connected by pipes (or maybe conduits) to the clerestory and to the boxy device on the headstock. This is a first class:

This is also a first class:

I think the next two are either thirds or compos, but they show the 'chimney', the device on the headstock and the piping connecting them. 

I think the box on the headstock is an acetylene gas generator for the lighting, and the gas goes up the pipe to the lamps, passing via the 'chimney' (whatever it does). I'm not an expert on actylene carbide lighting though, it might be worth a Google to see if this looks plausible.

 

[David Holman]

Quite a variety! Not sure, but is the box like thing by the balcony steps an acetylene generator? They were an alternative lighting. Some sort of chemical reaction to produce the gas & you can see a pipe going up to the roof, next to the handrail.

[Northroader]

When we were kids, you could buy calcium carbide at the chemists, a sort of soft brown crumbly substance. Bike lamps used to use it. Put it in with some water, and the acetylene gas would come fizzing out. I think doing it on a coach would be a bit of coming in fits and starts, quite how they would get a steady flow at even pressure would be problematic. Then you have to clean the black goo out of the container before recharge.

How did we use it? (Forgive me, father) you could get a glass screw top bottle, half fill it with water, drop a lump or two of carbide in it, then screw the cap down, put it on top of a wall, and run away. (We forgot Mrs. Pearce’s washing was out….)

[Mol_PMB]

9 minutes ago, Northroader said:

When we were kids, you could buy calcium carbide at the chemists, a sort of soft brown crumbly substance. Bike lamps used to use it. Put it in with some water, and the acetylene gas would come fizzing out. I think doing it on a coach would be a bit of coming in fits and starts, quite how they would get a steady flow at even pressure would be problematic. Then you have to clean the black goo out of the container before recharge.

How did we use it? (Forgive me, father) you could get a glass screw top bottle, half fill it with water, drop a lump or two of carbide in it, then screw the cap down, put it on top of a wall, and run away. (We forgot Mrs. Pearce’s washing was out….)

It's possible that the installation on railway carriages included a pressure regulator or flow control device? It was certainly used for carriage lighting, and I think typically had one gas generator per carriage, feeding several lamps.