Torpedo Vents - Clogher Valley All 1st

[Irish Mark]

Hey all,

Sorry if this is a bit of a beginner question or something that’s been asked before — I’ve had a look around but haven’t found a clear answer, so here goes.

I’m trying to figure out how many torpedo vents were on the all-first coaches of the Clogher Valley Railway, and how they were spaced. The best photos I’ve come across are on pages 33, 89, and 151 of the Patterson edition of The Clogher Valley Railway. From what I can tell, it looks like there are five or maybe six vents — which is more than the all-thirds and the first/third composites (it seem to be weldocumented those had just three).

Also, there seems to be an extra one mounted on a rectangular plinth above the balcony at one end — maybe even both ends?

Would love to hear any thoughts or insights if anyone has looked into this before.

Thanks!

[David Holman]

Just checked my own thread 'Clogher Valley Project', now malingering on page two of the layout thread. I built a first and a third, with both having just three vents. Never picked up that the firsts had more (they were much shorter anyway) and quite possible they lost a couple when the CVR degraded them to thirds.

 In the course of many exhibitions, nobody ever mentioned a lack of vents, though did once get criticised for a Guinness poster that was the wrong period!

[Irish Mark]

Thanks for the input.

I’m planning to go with a three-vent setup for now. The images I’ve looked at do show something a bit unusual with the vents on the All-First carriages, but in the absence of any solid evidence to the contrary, I’m comfortable assuming the three-vent configuration was part of the rationalization process—based on established practice and experience with the longer carriages—when First Class was phased out. Feels like one for the “life’s too short” list!

That said, if clear evidence of a retrofit ever turns up, swapping out a roof detail wouldn’t be a big deal.

 

Pictures to follow in due course.

[Irish Mark]

Here’s where I’m at with my CVR All-1st and the accompanying Goods Van. Both still need a bit of cleanup, decals (I haven’t decided what to do there yet), and weathering to finish them off. The only detail I’m still unsure about is the width of the center panel below the windows on the coach. I went with a panel that’s one window wide, lined up with the middle window of the nine on each side. It looks a bit narrow, especially since on the longer coaches this panel was two windows wide, centered on the middle pair of twelve windows per side. I’m not planning to change this build, but if anyone has more accurate info or a better interpretation, I’d love to hear it so I can make adjustments on future models.

The rolling stock is set up on the 4mm/ft 9mm gauge OO9 18in x 12in “Bosca Scarp” micro layout which I scratch-built (apart from the loco and two tunnel portals) in just two weeks for a recent regional NMRA convention. With that short timeframe, I decided to build two “prototype-style” carriages using old Egger-Bahn chassis for the event—and that turned out to be a good call. Still, I always knew I’d want something closer to the prototype, especially since the micro will be used as a display piece at club shows. That’s what led to these “upgraded” versions. I’m pretty happy with how they’ve turned out as quick, “layout-quality” builds. I’ll eventually do more detailed 3mm/ft scale (my preferred scale) 9mm gauge versions—but don’t hold your breath for those!

 

[Mayner]

Your CVR coach and van appear nicely modelled.

I assembled a pair of Branchlines (Andrew Mullins) CVR 3rd Class Coaches and a CVR Horse Box about 30 years ago but never got around to building a matching Van (passenger brake) or loco to complet the train, must do while I am still able.

[Patrick Davey]

10 hours ago, Irish Mark said:

 

 

These look superb - I would certainly like to see more photos!

[Mol_PMB]

15 hours ago, Irish Mark said:

Here’s where I’m at with my CVR All-1st and the accompanying Goods Van. Both still need a bit of cleanup, decals (I haven’t decided what to do there yet), and weathering to finish them off. The only detail I’m still unsure about is the width of the center panel below the windows on the coach. I went with a panel that’s one window wide, lined up with the middle window of the nine on each side. It looks a bit narrow, especially since on the longer coaches this panel was two windows wide, centered on the middle pair of twelve windows per side. I’m not planning to change this build, but if anyone has more accurate info or a better interpretation, I’d love to hear it so I can make adjustments on future models.

The rolling stock is set up on the 4mm/ft 9mm gauge OO9 18in x 12in “Bosca Scarp” micro layout which I scratch-built (apart from the loco and two tunnel portals) in just two weeks for a recent regional NMRA convention. With that short timeframe, I decided to build two “prototype-style” carriages using old Egger-Bahn chassis for the event—and that turned out to be a good call. Still, I always knew I’d want something closer to the prototype, especially since the micro will be used as a display piece at club shows. That’s what led to these “upgraded” versions. I’m pretty happy with how they’ve turned out as quick, “layout-quality” builds. I’ll eventually do more detailed 3mm/ft scale (my preferred scale) 9mm gauge versions—but don’t hold your breath for those!

 

 

I may be too late for you, but I've had a quick trawl through my CVR books and the following photos show first class coaches:

 

The Clogher Valley Railway, Patterson (original hardback):

• p.17, dated 1910. Not a very clear view.
• p.52, undated, in a lengthy special train. Not a very clear view.
• p.54, dated 1937, in a lengthy special train. Not a very clear view.
• p.71, dated 1910. Part-way down a train but reasonably clear. 3 vents and 3 lamps on the roof. Layout of the panelling and lettering is visible though not legible.

The Clogher Valley Railway, Patterson (second edition softback):

• p.32, dated 1935. First coach behind the loco, there appear to be 5 vents on the roof and a 'chimney' over the nearer balcony. Side panelling concealed by a post.
• p.88, dated 1903, half the carriage side is visible on the edge of the photo showing some of the lettering and panelling arrangement. Roof out of shot.
• p.89, dated 1920. First coach behind the loco, there appear to be 6 vents on the roof and a 'chimney' over the nearer balcony. Side panelling clearly visible but lettering unclear.
• p.134, dated 1920. Partial view of the end, showing lots of vents and the 'chimney', also a device on the balcony headstock (for acetylene lighting? Associated with the 'chimney'? See also p.153 lower photo, a third class but it has the same arrangement of acetylene generator.)
• p.71, dated 1910. Part-way down a train but reasonably clear. 3 vents and 3 lamps on the roof. Layout of the panelling and lettering is visible though not legible.

In the Days of the Clogher Valley, Johnston:

• p.1, undated. First coach behind the loco, there appear to be 6 vents on the roof. Side panelling clearly visible but lettering unclear.
• p.3, dated 1934. First coach behind the loco, there appear to be 6 vents on the roof and a 'chimney' over the nearer balcony. Side panelling clearly visible but lettering unclear.
• p.8, undated, in a lengthy special train. Not a very clear view.
• p.11, dated 1903, half the carriage side is visible on the edge of the photo showing some of the lettering and panelling arrangement. Roof out of shot.

Lost Railways of Co.Tyrone and Co.Fermanagh, Johnson:

• Front cover, undated but early. First coach behind the loco, 6 items on the roof, of two types, but unlike any other photos. 3 vents and 3 oil lamps?

The Irish Narrow Gauge vol 2, Ferris:

• p.9, dated 1920. First coach behind the loco, there appear to be 6 vents on the roof and a 'chimney' over the nearer balcony. Side panelling clearly visible but lettering unclear.
• p.18 top right, undated. First coach behind the loco, side panelling clear but roof detail rather lost in the trees.
• p.18 middle, 1939. This may be a third class but it shows a fairly good view of the device on the balcony headstock, the chimney and two types of vent.

Fermanagh's Railways, Friel/Johnston: no photos of CVR first class coaches though there are some other CVR images.

IRRS photo archive: no photos of CVR first class coaches but this image shows the acetylene lighting arrangements pretty well: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53813359618/

This is also a fairly good view on Flickr; 6 unevenly spaced vents and a chimney:

You may already have found many of these; please let me know if you would like me to scan any images from my books for you.

[airfixfan]

Have some Clogher Valley photos which need to be sorted. Headhunters have some good CVR photos 2

[Irish Mark]

8 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

 

I may be too late for you, but I've had a quick trawl through my CVR books and the following photos show first class coaches....

 

The Clogher Valley Railway, Patterson (original hardback) & The Clogher Valley Railway, Patterson (second edition softback):.

• p.71, dated 1910. Part-way down a train but reasonably clear. 3 vents and 3 lamps on the roof. Layout of the panelling and lettering is visible though not legible.

Lost Railways of Co.Tyrone and Co.Fermanagh, Johnson:

• Front cover, undated but early. First coach behind the loco, 6 items on the roof, of two types, but unlike any other photos. 3 vents and 3 oil lamps?

 

Wonderful feedback. Thanks.

I have most of the books Mol_PMB referenced and looked back through them with the benefit of those insights.

I do not have the “Lost Railways of Co. Tyrone and Co. Fermanagh, Johnson” book. I did find a low resolution front cover image and can make out the details noted. A higher resolution scan of that image would be a useful addition to my collection if that’s not too much trouble – thanks in advance.

I had not picked up the vents/lamps distinction provided in the “p.71, dated 1910” notes. That’s very valuable.

The Flickr image is not one I’d seen before and has good detail and contrast. It makes the single middle side panel very clear (the direction I went, so that’s pleasing) and the 6 unevenly spaced vents and a chimney are obvious if not totally clear (my argument for this quick build is that the venting was rationalized in a later refit – I’ll make up for this liberty with a more correct representation when I build my 3mm/ft scale stock later). I’ve cropped that image and picked out those details below.
Any idea about the chimney detail such as were it vents from – presumably it must be connected to the clerestory somehow?

 

 

[Mol_PMB]

Here are some scans of the better images - sorry the quality of the originals isn't always great. 

It's probably worth you having another read of the relevant books - at least the sections on carriages. The CVR went through several stages of carriage lighting, including oil, acetylene gas (from carbide), oil again briefly, and finally some were fitted with electric light. I suspect that some of the variations seen on the clerestory roofs aren't just ventilators but include lamps of various kinds. Oil/gas lamps would have needed some kind of vent of their own, to allow the combustion gases to escape.

In the early days, oil lamps might have been prepared away from the carriages, and then put into the clerestory around nightfall, placed into holes that would be covered with a cap when the lamp wasn't there.  

I think this is the earliest photo and the roof details appear quite different to later images. I'm pretty sure some of these are oil lamp tops rather than vents:

 

Most images of the first class coach(es) show 6 vents, unevenly spaced and maybe not all the same height or size. Exactly as you have marked on the Flickr photo.

At the end with 2 vents close together is the square 'chimney' thing (it might not be a chimney at all) which is separate from the clerestory. It is connected by pipes (or maybe conduits) to the clerestory and to the boxy device on the headstock. This is a first class:

This is also a first class:

I think the next two are either thirds or compos, but they show the 'chimney', the device on the headstock and the piping connecting them. 

I think the box on the headstock is an acetylene gas generator for the lighting, and the gas goes up the pipe to the lamps, passing via the 'chimney' (whatever it does). I'm not an expert on actylene carbide lighting though, it might be worth a Google to see if this looks plausible.

 

[David Holman]

Quite a variety! Not sure, but is the box like thing by the balcony steps an acetylene generator? They were an alternative lighting. Some sort of chemical reaction to produce the gas & you can see a pipe going up to the roof, next to the handrail.

[Northroader]

When we were kids, you could buy calcium carbide at the chemists, a sort of soft brown crumbly substance. Bike lamps used to use it. Put it in with some water, and the acetylene gas would come fizzing out. I think doing it on a coach would be a bit of coming in fits and starts, quite how they would get a steady flow at even pressure would be problematic. Then you have to clean the black goo out of the container before recharge.

How did we use it? (Forgive me, father) you could get a glass screw top bottle, half fill it with water, drop a lump or two of carbide in it, then screw the cap down, put it on top of a wall, and run away. (We forgot Mrs. Pearce’s washing was out….)

[Mol_PMB]

9 minutes ago, Northroader said:

When we were kids, you could buy calcium carbide at the chemists, a sort of soft brown crumbly substance. Bike lamps used to use it. Put it in with some water, and the acetylene gas would come fizzing out. I think doing it on a coach would be a bit of coming in fits and starts, quite how they would get a steady flow at even pressure would be problematic. Then you have to clean the black goo out of the container before recharge.

How did we use it? (Forgive me, father) you could get a glass screw top bottle, half fill it with water, drop a lump or two of carbide in it, then screw the cap down, put it on top of a wall, and run away. (We forgot Mrs. Pearce’s washing was out….)

It's possible that the installation on railway carriages included a pressure regulator or flow control device? It was certainly used for carriage lighting, and I think typically had one gas generator per carriage, feeding several lamps.

[Irish Mark]

Wow — what great feedback! It’s also a great reminder of how important it is to have good reference sources — and pictures, if possible — when modelling a specific period.

Here are a few of my observations from the images (though I’m not sure I’d call them firm conclusions just yet):

The biggest distinction seems to come down to the type of lighting in use — with oil lamps appearing in earlier carriages and carbide/acetylene systems coming along later.

In the earliest roof detail image, it looks like many (if not all) of the visible features are probably related to oil lamps, likely of the “pot lamp” variety. Interestingly, there are none of the prominent torpedo vents that show up clearly in photos of later-era carriages. It might be that ventilation in the clerestory relied purely on the hinged flaps along its length, which are quite noticeable in the photos.

By contrast, most of the images from later periods show acetylene lighting gear and the familiar torpedo-style vents on the clerestory. You can spot an acetylene generator on one end verandah, with pipework running to a chimney-like fitting — possibly an accumulator and regulator — mounted on the roof near the end of the clerestory. From there, pipes lead to the lamps inside. There seems to be just one of those chimney-like fittings per carriage, which would suggest one generator per carriage as well.

Who would have thought that such a small detail could be so fascinating?

A big thank you to everyone who’s shared their knowledge and insights!

[Broithe]

This thread should be held as an example of this forum at its very best!

[Galteemore]

It’s a clear story of enlightenment with no gaslighting. Seriously, though, such informed sharing of useful information is absolutely what this forum can do. 

Edited Wednesday at 22:27 by Galteemore

[David Holman]

16 hours ago, Northroader said:

When we were kids, you could buy calcium carbide at the chemists, a sort of soft brown crumbly substance. Bike lamps used to use it. Put it in with some water, and the acetylene gas would come fizzing out. I think doing it on a coach would be a bit of coming in fits and starts, quite how they would get a steady flow at even pressure would be problematic. Then you have to clean the black goo out of the container before recharge.

How did we use it? (Forgive me, father) you could get a glass screw top bottle, half fill it with water, drop a lump or two of carbide in it, then screw the cap down, put it on top of a wall, and run away. (We forgot Mrs. Pearce’s washing was out….)

Given the time of year, reminds me that, likewise back in the day, lighting a banger and putting it in a glass bottle was quite dangerous too. Bangers, for our younger brethren were simple fireworks that did what it said on the packet. Small ones were an old penny, larger (louder) ones tuppence. The real nut jobs were jumping jacks, essentially a firework of multiple bangers that would explode and jump around in a highly random and dangerous fashion.

 For many reasons, don't think you can get them now!

[Mayner]

Acetylene gas appears to have been widely used form of carriage lighting on minor railways in Ulster from  the late Victorian era onwards.

Both the Clogher Valley and Cavan and Leitrim converted to acetylene lighting at an early stage, and possibly the Donegal & Swilly (similar roof mounted lamps and boxes possibly for housing acetylene generators on carriage ends in photos of CDJR & LLSR carriage stock).

My old man used an Acetylene Generator (similar to the Rexarc 50PS https://rexarc.com/products/model-50ps/) as part of his set up for fabricating tubular steel furniture in the back garden our house in Dublin during the 1960s. Dad carried out the welding in a paved area of the garden out of sight of the neighbours so no complaints. 

Edited Thursday at 07:31 by Mayner

[Northroader]

Ahh.. the old bangers. They were about 3-4” length of guncotton, a soft fabric cord impregnated with gunpowder, put in a thick cardboard tube, the whole lot no more than an half inch diameter, and say four inches long. They could still pack quite a punch, best illustrated if you put one in the top hole for the wire of one of the reinforced concrete fence posts. You could blow the whole top off the post, leaving the reinforcing rods splayed out like a banana skin.

[Broithe]

Things have calmed down on the Big Island over the years of this century, but from around 1990 to 2005, you would hear fireworks every day from around mid-September to the end of the first week in January.

In the midst of this period, I was listening to a drama documentary* about the bombing of Germany, when I started to think that the soundtrack in the background was getting a bit repetitive - then, I suddenly realised that the next day was bin day, so I decided to put the bin out before I forgot again. When I opened the front door the 'soundtrack' got louder. I had actually been hearing, inside a house, with all the windows closed and the radio on, a firework display at a 'stately home' over four miles away. There can't have been a cat or dog left in the area...

Also, until the 400th anniversary finally came around, you could have stopped a hundred people in the street and asked them when the Gunpowder Plot happened and you would have been lucky to get any answers in the right decade.
 

I would applaud the plotters for not doing it in midsummer - I've had quite a bit of stuff come down in the garden still burning.

 

I went to a "popular classics" concert at Milton Keynes Bowl. Of course, there had to be the 1812 Overture to finish the evening, complete with a professional firework display. The fireworks were very carefully designed to stop burning just before they got back down to the level that they had been launched from. But, the crowd was on quite a high embankment, forming the amphitheatre around the stage. This meant that the thousands of people attending, many with picnics on blankets, etc., were subject to what had become, essentially, an incendiary raid. There was quite a bit of fairly mild panic and I didn't see any injuries, but I was most impressed by the chap in front of us whose blanket was hit, he calmly took the lid off his Thermos flask and put it out - no running about screaming for him...
 

*Len Deighton's Bomber.